Warhammer The Old World OT chat.

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**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Crimson wrote:
So if they'll just use the old sculpts and slightly update the old rules why is it taking this long?

Easy peasy this one.

They’re releasing a New Game. If they release it with “just use your existing army”, it strangles sales in the crib.

So instead, hold off on the release until you’ve got New Things (so New, they’ve barely existed in the previous editions if they existed at all) to sell alongside.

**Pacific**

Yes right. And presumably enough time has passed now that people will have burnt their armies from last time and now need to buy their armies all over again. Will probably pre-order them from GW at full RRP in fact.

tneva82 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pacific wrote:
So what's going to be the story? Nagash's spell goes wrong and initiates a time loop - the realms of Sigmar are destroyed in an event known as the End of the End Times and Age of Sigmar is removed from sale, to coincide with a reset of the series and Warhammer: The Old World launch.

Uuuh...Nothing? TOW is based on old history pre-end times. There's no need to do anything.

Sorry this was a joke, made in poor taste

**Irbis**

Gert wrote:
HH went on for ages with a pretty solid ruleset with only a few real issues *cough*Magnus*cough*

You wot?

Magnus, Lorgar (who could do pretty much the same thing), "I eat primarchs for breakfast" Scoria, "I eat two primarchs for breakfast" custom Custode general, quad phospex mortar battery spam, TS psyker spam, various Custode spams, DA "we're better than you at everything" wombo combos, etc, etc, HH had a lot of builds just as broken as Eldar and Tau in 40K 7th edition, you just saw them hitting tables a bit less because most of them were really expensive in $$$ to field and HH players were a little bit less shy to tell neckbeard netlisters to GTFO instead of forcing themselves to play them.

5th edition of 40K would be much better example, but we can't praise writer of that, sooo...

RustyNumber wrote:
I will weep blood if they decide they want to include stratagems, warlord traits etc etc (or any card based system) in TOW.

Yeah, why would there be a customization system in a game which had page after page of magic weapons, items, spells, mounts, etc, etc--

Oh wait

Add relics to the above list, it will make it even funnier

**Dreamchild**

Probably the same source (not sure if that's*the* Hastings) from elsewhere

**lord_blackfang**

That is *the* Hasting's full username, but it's a different forum, so who knows if some troll just signed up with the name to stir up gak. And Hastings himself was 10 years out of GW and just keeping up with old collegues at the pub 10 years ago. I doubt he still hears anything reliable.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

lord_blackfang wrote:
That is *the* Hasting's full username, but it's a different forum, so who knows if some troll just signed up with the name to stir up gak. And Hastings himself was 10 years out of GW and just keeping up with old collegues at the pub 10 years ago. I doubt he still hears anything reliable.

Hastings also said the plastic Thunderhawk was coming, when the first FW kit was removed from sale/

**kodos**

Hastings also claimed he had seen new Bretonnia models meant for a 9th Edition core box before it was decided to blow up the world (and rage quit because they were scrapped)

if it is "the" Hastings, he might refer to those models when talking about the old Brets being back in production

we might never know

**Mr Morden**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Crimson wrote:
So if they'll just use the old sculpts and slightly update the old rules why is it taking this long?

Easy peasy this one.

They’re releasing a New Game. If they release it with “just use your existing army”, it strangles sales in the crib.

So instead, hold off on the release until you’ve got New Things (so New, they’ve barely existed in the previous editions if they existed at all) to sell alongside.

If its mainly Fw - it might be more here are a few centrepiece models for your army....but then FW has not bothered with much fantasy stuff for a long time

**nathan2004**

Overread wrote:
Crimson wrote:
So if they'll just use the old sculpts and slightly update the old rules why is it taking this long?

Well for one thing there was a little pandemic causing utter chaos for a few years where GW shut down for several months and since then have had huge problems just getting the current games they support back to their planned release schedule and kept in stock. Let alone in stock in different regions of the world. So regardless of any development of the game itself, now is just not the time to over-stress their systems with another massive game release.

And yep I agree, TK would still need updates, core models and such would need bringing up to modern standards if they want it to sell. I think GW knows this, any models brought back would have to be up to standard. The only way I could see them em-mass getting away with relisting old models was if they did it with a lot of armies all at once.

Honestly the greater worry is what happens to AoS.
30K kind of works because it uses totally different models and only shares an army roster structure with some core forces of 40K.

AoS directly uses a lot of Old World models in current armies. Not just proxies, many AoS armies are fully Old World models. When Old World comes out the very nature of AoS lore itself also means that you could effortlessly just move them over. So how will GW keep the two lines functional at the same time without one dominating the other. I don't believe they could do it with base size and shape alone being the only dividing point.
Will it mean that AoS versions will get entirely new models over time so armies like Seraphon and Skaven will see entire new ranges? Will it mean that one game always ends up being more of a rules system and style change? If so what does that mean for AoS? Will GW shift it toward being the skirmisher whilst AoS is the mass battle system - if so what about large colllections/armies of AoS models when people want to use them for a larger battle?

It's one thing to compete with another firm in the same market; its another to compete with yourself.

You realize there’s a lot of overlap between HH and 40k now right, especially as it pertains to vehicles.

**Danny76**

Mr Morden wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Crimson wrote:
So if they'll just use the old sculpts and slightly update the old rules why is it taking this long?

Easy peasy this one.

They’re releasing a New Game. If they release it with “just use your existing army”, it strangles sales in the crib.

So instead, hold off on the release until you’ve got New Things (so New, they’ve barely existed in the previous editions if they existed at all) to sell alongside.

If its mainly Fw - it might be more here are a few centrepiece models for your army....but then FW has not bothered with much fantasy stuff for a long time

This could be why we haven’t seen anything the last five or more years anyway.
If they were working on anything fantasy like related, it was held back for the release of The Old World maybe

**RustyNumber**

I just had a thought - Surely they're not going to release affordable numbers of WFB miniatures, ie 20 strong boxes, which will then compete with their AoS boxes? They can charge more for only 10 models using WFB minis with AoS... So what are they going to do with TOW rank-and-file kits? Unless they finally just kill off any legacy units in AoS.

Hmmm.

**Platuan4th**

You never know. They did say they wanted it to be like the Fantasy Horus Heresy so we might get $80 USD 30 model boxes(40 for Goblins and Skaven).

**Tygre**

They did tease Cities of Sigmar work in production. It does seem like the old Empire kits will not be used in AoS, eventually.

**DarkBlack**

RustyNumber wrote:
Unless they finally just kill off any legacy units in AoS.

This would be my guess.
I suspect that GW might make rules for models that are in AoS initially to draw people in, but then "incentivise" players to buy models that are made for TOW and can't be played in both games.

**NinthMusketeer**

RustyNumber wrote:
I just had a thought - Surely they're not going to release affordable numbers of WFB miniatures, ie 20 strong boxes, which will then compete with their AoS boxes? They can charge more for only 10 models using WFB minis with AoS... So what are they going to do with TOW rank-and-file kits? Unless they finally just kill off any legacy units in AoS.

Hmmm.

It's a complete crapshoot--we've also got 10-man boxes from WHFB on sale alongside 20-man boxes of larger miniatures from AoS at the same price.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkBlack wrote:
RustyNumber wrote:
Unless they finally just kill off any legacy units in AoS.

This would be my guess.
I suspect that GW might make rules for models that are in AoS initially to draw people in, but then "incentivise" players to buy models that are made for TOW and can't be played in both games.

Why would they do that? They can make models then give them rules for both systems to sell to both audiences.

The only demographic GW loses sales from in that model are players who:
-play both systems
-want to dual-purpose their existing army without additional purchases
-would buy a whole new army if the above were not an option

I'm pretty sure GW is willing to lose money on all ten of those people in order to tap sales from those only playing AoS.

**DarkBlack**

NinthMusketeer wrote:

DarkBlack wrote:
RustyNumber wrote:
Unless they finally just kill off any legacy units in AoS.

This would be my guess.
I suspect that GW might make rules for models that are in AoS initially to draw people in, but then "incentivise" players to buy models that are made for TOW and can't be played in both games.
Why would they do that? They can make models then give them rules for both systems to sell to both audiences.

The only demographic GW loses sales from in that model are players who:
-play both systems
-want to dual-purpose their existing army without additional purchases
-would buy a whole new army if the above were not an option

I'm pretty sure GW is willing to lose money on all ten of those people in order to tap sales from those only playing AoS.

GW want players to buy a new army and do so for each game.
There will certainly be overlap, to get people to try the other game, but I expect that the TOW focused armies (and legacy armies in AoS) will be better in TOW and the new stuff made for AoS will continue to be better in AoS.

**Chikout**

I think everyone is thinking of gw as a singular entity with a unified vision. The rumours I've heard floating about from the likes of Rob the Honest Wargamer who used to work at gw is that the two studios don't exactly get on. Unless there have been some big changes at gw recently I don't think AoS and Warhammer Fantasy are being developed with any mind towards each other.

As for crossover that seems to be getting less and less as time goes by. There will be a big cities revamp next year with all the old empire kits going away. There are also rumours that Seraphon/Lizardmen are getting a big update too. After the big slaves to Darkness update there are only about 4 or 5 kits left from the fantasy days.

There are some kits like the new zombies which would work in theory but has anyone tried to rank them up? Is that even possible without giving them bigger bases?

I think from GW's perspective the smart approach would be to bring back the old minis but add a couple of new kits for each faction so that players who kept their old armies have something to get excited about.

**Eumerin**

It would be very problematic to completely remove all model overlap between the two games. The Daughters of Khaine, for example, are practically built around a unit (Witch Elves) that was brought over from the Old World pretty much "as-is". And they're not unique in that regard. If GW were to suddenly announce (just as the Old World was about to be released) that Witch Elves and Sisters of Slaughter were being removed from the DoK line-up, they'd catch a lot of flack.

At the same time, though, they didn't seem to care much when they introduced the DoK, and players with an existing Dark Elf army were able to bring over their old Witch Elf and Sister figures for the new DoK faction. And again, this wasn't unique to the DoK. So I'm not sure that it's really something that GW considers a problem anymore than they consider it a problem when players use the same models in both Kill Team and 40K. A model sold is a model sold. Yes, there's some overlap. But outside of special cases like the periodic Space Hulk reissues (where you could theoretically get a bunch of 40K models for significantly less than what they'd cost purchased through normal methods), I don't think GW worries about it.

**kodos**

both are possible by how GW works, having a big as possible crossover between AoS and TOW as well as not a single unit being officially used in the other setting

players can always use whatever they want, people can use their HH Rhino in 40k and their 40k Rhinos in HH
though just some players might complain that the models don't fit but you don't "need" to 2 times the number of Rhinos just to play both games
it is just easier to play the 30k models in 40k and I expect for TOW to be similar
that the AoS models won't really fit into the setting/theme/rules (like being too large to get them ranked up on 20mm bases)

and on the other side, GW removing armies and make collections unusable because they core unit is replaced by something different or the army merged with something else is nothing new
we have seen GW bringing back all the old stuff in 40k that was once gone in one form or another, but don't expect that everything will be it once was

the option to remove current Witch Elves from either AoS or TOW is there

at the beginning most likely option is an Index/Ravening Hordes army lists that are 1:1 copies of the 8th Edition adjusted (or not) for the new rules and army books or campaign books with the actual new army lists over time

same like all the Storm of Chaos armies from 6th Editon were still playable in 7th Edi until they were slowly phased out by releasing new army books that just removed the options with the official answer being that you still can proxy them as something else

so in the end it comes down to "does GW care at all" and how much do they care

**NinthMusketeer**

The best analogy we have is HH; do model kits released specifically for HH have rules for 40k? Yes. Does HH make any moves to accommodate 40k releases beyond pre-existing overlap? No.

We translate that to TOW and it would mean TOW minis getting AoS rules (though many already do in Legends) while AoS specific models remain such. I've not seen any evidence to expect a change of course here, though there's still a lot of grey area in how that policy is implemented.

As for ranking, I recall most kits already being a bitch to rank up so what's changed?

**Not Online!!!**

As someone that has just made a 10 strong unit of chaos knights.... they seriously should've granted heavier cav a 30x 60 /30x75 base.

**Sarouan**

Well at least I can confirm the plastic squigs do fit on 20mm square base...you just have to play Tetris to make them fit base to base with the right poses.

Since I'm reusing my old night goblin army, all I have to do is paint everything.

We'll see in the end. I honestly don't trust a nickname on another site that sounds similar to an old rumorbringer. Tomb Kings / Bretonnians old kits could be going back as they are, indeed. But GW making a new game with"a lot of" resin, nowadays ? I don't really buy it. That FW could make lots of upgrade kits in resin like HH (shields with coats of arms, heads, weapons...), sure why not.

On the other hand...since Empire and Kislev aren't mentionned...and if the purpose is to have a lot of different factions at release without blowing up development costs...yes, it makes sense to "just" produce the old kits back for a lot of armies. Like the rest of wood elves who disappeared in AoS, and so on...

**JimmyWolf87**

Tygre wrote:
From what I have seen, so far, I suspect that Warhammer: The Old World is set around ~2000IC. This would be during the Errantry wars of Bretonnia. It is also after the war of Three emperors in the Empire and when the Vampire Wars are set. The Empire may not be in civil war at this time but they are not united.

That date is smack bang in the middle of the Three Emperors conflict (i.e. the year Mordhiem got flattened) and before the Vampire Wars even began...

This game isn't looking to be set then though; it's a couple of centuries later judging by who's King of Bretonnia and the 'Time of Three Emperors' is still ongoing, albeit with different candidates. Interestingly it's after the Vampire Wars have concluded.

**tneva82**

Sarouan wrote:
Well at least I can confirm the plastic squigs do fit on 20mm square base...you just have to play Tetris to make them fit base to base with the right poses.

Since I'm reusing my old night goblin army, all I have to do is paint everything.

We'll see in the end. I honestly don't trust a nickname on another site that sounds similar to an old rumorbringer. Tomb Kings / Bretonnians old kits could be going back as they are, indeed. But GW making a new game with"a lot of" resin, nowadays ? I don't really buy it. That FW could make lots of upgrade kits in resin like HH (shields with coats of arms, heads, weapons...), sure why not.

On the other hand...since Empire and Kislev aren't mentionned...and if the purpose is to have a lot of different factions at release without blowing up development costs...yes, it makes sense to "just" produce the old kits back for a lot of armies. Like the rest of wood elves who disappeared in AoS, and so on...

That's a lot of kits to put back in production though. Since they would need to release kit for every single unit they have rules for in the game.

Good if they do but wonder how the production capability survives. It's already struggling.

**Dudeface**

As someone who is interested but looking into OId World as a "new player" the cost of entry is the one thing they need to not feth up. Old WHFB became wayyyy too big to buy into, multiple 40 man units as a small mandatory core in some cases.

I agree they likely won't start releasing boxes with notably better value than Sigmar or they'll cannibalise their own market. As a result I'd expect them to actually scale the headcount down a little, make 10 man units viable for the most part, stop you needing 6 boxes of 10 guys just for the compulsory troops.

**Londinium**

JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Tygre wrote:
From what I have seen, so far, I suspect that Warhammer: The Old World is set around ~2000IC. This would be during the Errantry wars of Bretonnia. It is also after the war of Three emperors in the Empire and when the Vampire Wars are set. The Empire may not be in civil war at this time but they are not united.

That date is smack bang in the middle of the Three Emperors conflict (i.e. the year Mordhiem got flattened) and before the Vampire Wars even began...

This game isn't looking to be set then though; it's a couple of centuries later judging by who's King of Bretonnia and the 'Time of Three Emperors' is still ongoing, albeit with different candidates. Interestingly it's after the Vampire Wars have concluded.

Yeah we're basically looking at the rise of Asavar Kul. Thematically it's very similar to the old WHFB setting, which had the rise of Archaon always lurking in the background.

**tneva82**

Dudeface wrote:
As someone who is interested but looking into OId World as a "new player" the cost of entry is the one thing they need to no feth up. Old WHFB became wayyyy too big to buy into, multiple 40 man units as a small mandatory core in some cases.

I agree they likely won't start releasing boxes with notably better value than Sigmar or they'll cannibalise their own market. As a result I'd expect them to actually scale the headcount down a little, make 10 man units viable for the most part, stop you needing 6 boxes of 10 guys just for the compulsory troops.

FB 5-6th ed was much like that. Albeit you had multiple small units so model count wasn't QUITE that small especially 6-7 compared to 8 but at least it was more feasible to play smaller games where it's not just 1 main unit and 1 support unit and hero or two like small 8e games could be as rules encouraged so heavily big death stars.

**Sarouan**

tneva82 wrote:

That's a lot of kits to put back in production though. Since they would need to release kit for every single unit they have rules for in the game.

Good if they do but wonder how the production capability survives. It's already struggling.

I agree. Then this rumor mentions it's already on the way now, so...if they did plan the production of old kits and it's on going right now to build a stock for the date of release...I guess everything can be ready for that date in the end.

But that would mean stocks will be limited to their current projection of what will sell...at least for a while. We do remember what happened with Cursed City and the similar, don't we.

**Apple fox**

Dudeface wrote:
As someone who is interested but looking into OId World as a "new player" the cost of entry is the one thing they need to not feth up. Old WHFB became wayyyy too big to buy into, multiple 40 man units as a small mandatory core in some cases.

I agree they likely won't start releasing boxes with notably better value than Sigmar or they'll cannibalise their own market. As a result I'd expect them to actually scale the headcount down a little, make 10 man units viable for the most part, stop you needing 6 boxes of 10 guys just for the compulsory troops.

I would like to see them embrace unit filler in the rules itself, just a how it works and how to use them. Use 1 base fillers, and 4 base fillers.
And then drop a extra rank of bases in each box. Cheap and easy for GW to implement.

And for cool hero’s (and lords) if you need a little extra space for something cool.
You can actually use unit filler rules as well, just need players to understand how they function and easy. As long as GW themselves understand why they are so useful.

**Pacific**

I think that was one of the reasons offered for why WHFB got nuked - large blocks of expensive (monetary wise) units were mandatory, it had a really high entry level cost. And veteran players usually had a way around finding cheaper armies, it was rare to see a large Vampire Counts army that didn't contain Mantic zombies or skeletons for example, amongst other manufacturers that were feeding off of GW overpricing their own lines.

That actually makes you realise that this game isnt going to be a 'core' release and banner game for GW. Are those boxes of R&F infantry going to have come down in price? Of course not, and it will be even more expensive with gaps in the range filled with FW models. They'll be relying on Total War players buying the (one) reasonably priced starter box as well as old-time WHFB players forgetting that they had spent hundreds of hours/pounds on that army that got invalidated over-night (which they put on eBay for a price that allowed them to buy one unit box of Stormcast) and happily buying into probably an almost exactly the same game they had before, but with added rules bloat and pointless rule name changes. And no doubt it will be a success.