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 ImAGeek wrote:
I like seeing something different for Aelves, even if it’s just giving them a weapon they don’t traditionally use.

The hammers do look kind of ridiculously oversized, but well... that's Warhammer for ya, every weapon is.

I think seeing hammers on elves don't strike me as strange due mostly to Tolkien, both because there they were the best smiths of the world and because the noldors of Gondolin traditionally used them, to the point of being the "house of the hammer"

The Noldor Elf advanced with hammer of wrath,
And the kindred of the tree-bravely they fought,
The blows from their hammers, The dint of their clubs,
The orcs fell like leaves but this was not enough.

The lord of the Balrogs gathered his demons,
and made for the folk of the hammer.
They fled in terror rather than of craft,
Down in the plain they all gathered.
But a fire-drake was loosed upon them-
In the house of the hammer they died.
Still it is sung that each Elf of the hammer,
Took the lives of seven orcs to pay for their own.

 TBD wrote:
The cow-head hammer Elves aren’t my cup of tea either, but all discussion about whether they are strong enough to wield the too big looking hammers is silly because it’s clearly stated these are MAGICAL hammers, so the magic obviously makes them light enough to swing around

If they are incredibly light, hitting someone with them won't have much of an impact though. Something about force equalling mass times acceleration.

By Warhammer standards, I'm not even sure if these weapons are particularly oversized, though I don't like the look of them. A shame really, as the models are very well done otherwise - dynamic, swinging poses with a real sense of movement. Swap/modify the heads to something vaguely sensible and give them a two-handed sword, or perhaps a graceful naginata-style polearm, and they'll look fantastic.

I can see how it may be "interesting" to redesign fantasy tropes, but this just doesn't work for me either. Speed and agility simply don't combine well with massive hammers. Similarly, the cow giants look off because they are so tall and slender; not particularly cowesque traits. Still interested to see where the rest of thing range goes, as the core aesthetics/quality is excellent overall, it's just the added details and strange "original" choices made that ruin the final look.

By the way, considering this:



Are we able to drop the argument that these hammers only look stupidly large on the miniatures due to heroic-scale, and are much more sensibly proportioned in the artwork?

 Albertorius wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I like seeing something different for Aelves, even if it’s just giving them a weapon they don’t traditionally use.

The hammers do look kind of ridiculously oversized, but well... that's Warhammer for ya, every weapon is.

I think seeing hammers on elves don't strike me as strange due mostly to Tolkien, both because there they were the best smiths of the world and because the noldors of Gondolin traditionally used them, to the point of being the "house of the hammer"

The Noldor Elf advanced with hammer of wrath,
And the kindred of the tree-bravely they fought,
The blows from their hammers, The dint of their clubs,
The orcs fell like leaves but this was not enough.

The lord of the Balrogs gathered his demons,
and made for the folk of the hammer.
They fled in terror rather than of craft,
Down in the plain they all gathered.
But a fire-drake was loosed upon them-
In the house of the hammer they died.
Still it is sung that each Elf of the hammer,
Took the lives of seven orcs to pay for their own.

Interesting - thanks

The artwork pretty much confirms that the model sitting on the floating chair is female. I thought it was kind of obvious, but there was some doubt earlier.

 vipoid wrote:
By the way, considering this:

Spoiler:

Are we able to drop the argument that these hammers only look stupidly large on the miniatures due to heroic-scale, and are much more sensibly proportioned in the artwork?

That is the big dude, not the infantry to which that line of discussion applies. I think we can all agree that it does not particularly matter what a creature of such size and obvious strength hits you with, you are going to die!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah. I know it is a fantasy game, but I really don't like those helmets. The height is ridiculous, and then the horns make them broader than the elves wearing them.

Can you imagine these guys trying to run through a forest, or enter a building? Too much, for me. From the head down they are quite nice, though I think blunt weapons are not very elvish.

I do not like the helmets or the hammers, both are just too large for me. Even when compensating for heroic scale as previously mentioned the hammer is too much IMO. If I had them the top half of that helmet would be getting cut off, and I would be looking around for hammer swaps.

Looking at pics 2 and 4, the hammers seem to be hollow...

Jackal90 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.

I think hammers with more reasonably sized heads would have looked a lot better.

Even for non-Elves, I've never liked the aesthetics of 'giant mallet' weapons.

Keep in mind the scale of GW miniatures is not true; items like weapons are up-scaled to make their details more apparent and for aesthetics. Note how, bar a few exceptions, weapon proportions in the art are much more reasonable.

It's also practical because we play with models about 1ft or so from us on a table. It's even "worse" for other scales; at 15 mm weapons are massive compared to what they'd really be. Plus things like thickness vary a lot too; swords are super thick because making them the right scale thickness would have them flopping over, falling off out the mould or snapping super easy. I've got some metal models on the table and the swords for them are much thicker than plastic ones, though even the plastic are often still too thick for reality.

It can be done by GW really well too though.
Just take a look at the LoTR range.
Most of their weapons are far more normal and don’t suffer as a result.

My experience with LotR minis is limited but I did have problems in relation to how thin pieces were. Fortunately I was swapping out the weapons anyways.

Those elves are pretty good overall. But... elves and hammers don’t mix. They just don’t. Glaives, or greatswords would work better, imho. Even axes.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Those elves are pretty good overall. But... elves and hammers don’t mix. They just don’t. Glaives, or greatswords would work better, imho. Even axes.

I think when they are the only elite regiment, it seems a little odd. Once we see River and Wind (maybe Zenith) elites, the Earth guys having hammers and the Wind guys being more classic swordmasters will make things fit in a little better.
As the elven elite it's a little usual, as the elite of the Stone aspected elves, less so.

 Ghaz wrote:
Looking at pics 2 and 4, the hammers seem to be hollow...

I think they are designed to be solid metal with a hollow central point. That might be for visual design; magical properties or some other aspect.






Also if we are hating on these hammers when are we going to start hating on stormcast hammers?

 Overread wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Looking at pics 2 and 4, the hammers seem to be hollow...

I think they are designed to be solid metal with a hollow central point. That might be for visual design; magical properties or some other aspect.

Going with the theme that the mask on Avalenor is what keeps his spirit in the constructed body, I would say that the hammers have a similar purpose and that they're actually not a heavy, solid hammer at all.

I think the criticism about "tolkien" elves vs. other styles is not super strong to be honest. For better or worse, Tolkien defined the popular idea of a "fantasy" elf, the main other idea is of Christmas elves.

I think tropes are good, especially in a mass market fantasy setting. Making them different just for the sake of it is not very interesting to me. Hammerers are a Dwarven thing, so it is weird to now have elves who live in and worship mountains, have mountain runic language and hammer based elite units. Sort of dilutes the faction identity a bit.

As to the High Elf conical helms, yeah, those also stretch my disbelief, but these are at least twice as bad, particularly the huge horns sticking out to either side. I can't look at them without imagining these guys trying to enter a building or something really awkwardly, and super awkwardness is not something I associate with Elves.

Poor design, imho.

A: Let's design a new Elf army!
B: Great! I'll get Jes.
A: Nah mate, I got this.

For some reason this scenario was allowed to play out at GW HQ.

JSG wrote:
A: Let's design a new Elf army!
B: Great! I'll get Jes.
A: Nah mate, I got this.

For some reason this scenario was allowed to play out at GW HQ.

Do we know for sure that Jes wasn’t involved in the design for these?

 ImAGeek wrote:

JSG wrote:
A: Let's design a new Elf army!
B: Great! I'll get Jes.
A: Nah mate, I got this.

For some reason this scenario was allowed to play out at GW HQ.

Do we know for sure that Jes wasn’t involved in the design for these?

During the preview Phil Kelly says "the sculptors developed this range of Lumineth..." If Jes had any meaningful involvement I think they'd be dropping his name tbh.

JSG wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

JSG wrote:
A: Let's design a new Elf army!
B: Great! I'll get Jes.
A: Nah mate, I got this.

For some reason this scenario was allowed to play out at GW HQ.

Do we know for sure that Jes wasn’t involved in the design for these?

During the preview Phil Kelly says "the sculptors developed this range of Lumineth..." If Jes had any meaningful involvement I think they'd be dropping his name tbh.

I think that’s quite a leap, honestly.

Talking about how hammers aren't proper elvish weapons is like people saying that bow aren't dwarven weapons when in LOTR is the only one they use.


And theres all kind of elves. I mean, the hammers look like ass, but theres nothing wrong with elves using hammers. Specially if you design them with some of the more raven-picke hammer style.

 ImAGeek wrote:

JSG wrote:
A: Let's design a new Elf army!
B: Great! I'll get Jes.
A: Nah mate, I got this.

For some reason this scenario was allowed to play out at GW HQ.

Do we know for sure that Jes wasn’t involved in the design for these?

I think Jes works on the 40k team and they are separate studios now- so unlikely but not impossible that Jes worked on them.
The visual weight of them reminds me of those Iranian club guys- they swing really heavy oversized clubs - a combination of strength, skill and momentum.

But if you can't suspend your disbelief it doesn't matter.

The other factions will look different- I don't mind these guys, they look cool enough but I'm not really into the high elf trope.

Imagine trying to go for an overhead strike with those hammers and knocking yourself over becasue you clipped your hat-horns.

 Da Boss wrote:
Imagine trying to go for an overhead strike with those hammers and knocking yourself over becasue you clipped your hat-horns.

What do you think they train for?

They do seem to be going for horizontal sweeping blows, rather than overhead strikes, from the poses we've seen so far.

To me the hammer heads don’t look particularly oversized vs what we typically see. The difference I note is the handles are of much more realistic proportion vs older models. Perhaps this. Adds to why people are seeing the hammer head as oversized.

The cow helmet is a bit much-I like the various photoshopped options people have posted, but overall love the new range. Perfect mix of old school high elf and AOS weirdness.

 Galas wrote:
Talking about how hammers aren't proper elvish weapons is like people saying that bow aren't dwarven weapons when in LOTR is the only one they use.

I fear I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here.

 Galas wrote:

And theres all kind of elves. I mean, the hammers look like ass, but theres nothing wrong with elves using hammers. Specially if you design them with some of the more raven-picke hammer style.

I think if the Elves were using realistically-proportioned warhammers, it would be fine.

Sure, hammers aren't traditionally associated with elves but they'd still serve a useful anti-armour role alongside the bows and various edged weapons that elves are more typically depicted as using.

And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Talking about how hammers aren't proper elvish weapons is like people saying that bow aren't dwarven weapons when in LOTR is the only one they use.

I fear I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here.

 Galas wrote:

And theres all kind of elves. I mean, the hammers look like ass, but theres nothing wrong with elves using hammers. Specially if you design them with some of the more raven-picke hammer style.

I think if the Elves were using realistically-proportioned warhammers, it would be fine.

Sure, hammers aren't traditionally associated with elves but they'd still serve a useful anti-armour role alongside the bows and various edged weapons that elves are more typically depicted as using.

He's saying that bows are not typically considered dwarf weapons. Not warhammer style anyway, but they do use them frequently in Tolkien's works. As well as spears, swords and other weapons not considered typically "dwarfy". Same way there's precedent for elves to use hammers and axes, even though they're not usually considered "elvish".

 Kanluwen wrote:
And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.

Conversely, hand-wavy fluff doesn't mean jack to the silly look of the models.

The hammers would look silly if they were "normal" sized. Heck, consider the massive slabs of steel that idoneth thralls lug around, which have 1" range.

 Overread wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Looking at pics 2 and 4, the hammers seem to be hollow...

I think they are designed to be solid metal with a hollow central point. That might be for visual design; magical properties or some other aspect.

I’m guessing theyre stone hammers given the whole mountain theme. The ones carried by the big guys are definitely stone at least.

Personally, when I think of elves in any fantasy setting, they are stereotypically agile, graceful, skilful and elegant. Their weaponry and armour should suggest the same elegance and finesse. Floating cow horns and a bloody croquet mallet does *not* nail that. There's subverting a stereotype and there's just fething it up, and for me they're very much into the latter territory.