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Sticking to a stereotype or even subverting one is boring. There are a 1001 Tolkienesque settings that do that and multiple mini companies that just copy that trope. Lets have some fun throwing something completely new out there.

The hammers don't bother me so much, but there's no way in heck I'm using those helmets.

I do wonder how many who are dead-set against the helms might change their mind when they get or see the models in the flesh. Sometimes angles and the amount of enlargement that photos/video can give to models, can make things appear slightly different to how we perceive them when we see them in the flesh.

Overlarge weapons is a good one, but there's also other details and aspects that can seem odd in a model when seen on the screen; compared to when you hold them in the hand.


Sadly with the government shutdowns it might be a long while before Luminoth get to appear in peoples hands.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.

Sigh. Feel free to read a physics textbook once in a while.

Firstly, having hammers that size isn't actually useful. The point of warhammers is to concentrate force into a relatively small area. Hence, their heads are still hammer-sized, not Loony-Toons-mallet-sized. By having them be this big, you're making them much harder to move and swing for virtually no gain.

Secondly, in practical terms, strength isn't actually the main problem. it's certainly *a* problem as, for example, no human alive would be able to heft weapons like that, so one's suspension of disbelief is already strained.

However, the main problem with human-sized creatures wielding preposterously large and heavy weapons is that they simply don't have the weight or grip to maintain their balance whilst swinging them. And, for about the 4th time, this has nothing to do with the user's strength, so magic super-strength won't actually help one iota with this issue.

They just have to channel their inner Gotrek

 vipoid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.

Sigh. Feel free to read a physics textbook once in a while.

Firstly, having hammers that size isn't actually useful. The point of warhammers is to concentrate force into a relatively small area. Hence, their heads are still hammer-sized, not Loony-Toons-mallet-sized. By having them be this big, you're making them much harder to move and swing for virtually no gain.

Secondly, in practical terms, strength isn't actually the main problem. it's certainly *a* problem as, for example, no human alive would be able to heft weapons like that, so one's suspension of disbelief is already strained.

However, the main problem with human-sized creatures wielding preposterously large and heavy weapons is that they simply don't have the weight or grip to maintain their balance whilst swinging them. And, for about the 4th time, this has nothing to do with the user's strength, so magic super-strength won't actually help one iota with this issue.

It's hard to apply physics in a high fantasy setting though. Especially since novelty sized hammers aren't anything new. Dwarf Hammerers have existed forever and they're just as massive. Sure, dwarves look like they can wield them easier, but like you said, big hammers wouldn't matter. And this army already has tri-stringed bows, so evidently, these elves are strong as hell.

As for part 2, once again, humans have existed in the setting forever that wield such weapons. Not really Sigmarite priest, but look at the empire captain on foot and horse is using an even bigger hammer than these guys. I don't see the point in spending a ton of time going after these specific models, odd though they may be, when other guilty models have existed for years without people raising as much fuss. (I'm looking at you, vampire count skeleton that is somehow able to use a horn, despite lacking lungs.)

There's a walking mountain shaped as a Minotaur. Physics applys to that too right?
Forget the new stuff, how does physics play into just about any of the AoS's settings? It's all psuedo science and magic. Trying to call a single weapon bad because it's unrealistic or exagerated amongst a sea of unrealistic or exaggerated weapons is pointless at this time. It's part of the setting.

 vipoid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.

Sigh. Feel free to read a physics textbook once in a while.

Firstly, having hammers that size isn't actually useful. The point of warhammers is to concentrate force into a relatively small area. Hence, their heads are still hammer-sized, not Loony-Toons-mallet-sized. By having them be this big, you're making them much harder to move and swing for virtually no gain.

Secondly, in practical terms, strength isn't actually the main problem. it's certainly *a* problem as, for example, no human alive would be able to heft weapons like that, so one's suspension of disbelief is already strained.

However, the main problem with human-sized creatures wielding preposterously large and heavy weapons is that they simply don't have the weight or grip to maintain their balance whilst swinging them. And, for about the 4th time, this has nothing to do with the user's strength, so magic super-strength won't actually help one iota with this issue.

Wow... Those cow-head elves are bad. Wasn’t looking to update the elves I have, but definitely ain’t looking to now...

Valete,

JohnS

What frightens me most is that these Stoneguard are gonna end up with awesome rules that make them monsters on the table, so people are going to rush out and buy a ton of them.

GW: "See? People love the new look!"

There's always the chance that a lot of people do in fact love the new look?

I don't mind them at all - but they're not tempting enough for me to start a new army.

GW did something new with (A)Elves - good for them!

Problem with these mallet is that they look ugly. Only things missing is giving the mallet to the cavalry so they can play polo.

Probably need some whack a mole terrain (mountains) and endless spells too.

To me they are a bit of a shame because I think the other infantry units, the spearmen and the archers look pretty great. (particularly as sources for conversions.

These guys have the double whammy of a not super appealing helm (but just using the bull heads as helmets looks promising, but also the mallets are not so great.

However, replace the mallet heads with double axe heads, and use the bull heads as helmets and suddenly you have a unit of angry Minoans!

Just really happy these aren't for me. Another possible new army dodged. Still excited/worried about Soulblight.

I don't think I've seen a worse design of a fantasy miniature, it's so obvious they've been smoking something really strong.

They could have made elves with hammers, but they need to fit the aesthetics of the elves. Much more elegant and cohesive. The elves themself look slim, with pointy robes but
they wield huge cylinder on pole which could almost be a spear. They made them so long beacuse of the helmets so that can be swung around.
The dwarfs are milllion times more cohesive. Short and stocky with fullplate mail and the hammers are in the similar ballpark (short, stocky and heavy).

But the greatest sin are the helmets, there should be at least a minimal logic or physics taken into consideration. How these guys walk into a building, how they fight.
Even walking through the forest is mission impossible, half the army would die by breaking their necks.
Gross, pure and simple.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

 TBD wrote:
The cow-head hammer Elves aren’t my cup of tea either, but all discussion about whether they are strong enough to wield the too big looking hammers is silly because it’s clearly stated these are MAGICAL hammers, so the magic obviously makes them light enough to swing around

If they are incredibly light, hitting someone with them won't have much of an impact though. Something about force equalling mass times acceleration.

Weight and mass are not the same though. A truck still hits like a truck, even on the moon where it's much lighter.

Removing gravity from the hammer would make it easier to wield without reducing the impact.

And you're missing the most important part of the equation: magic.

The "magic" here is in how they managed to make "elite Elf warriors" look so terrible.

Normally studios put all their effort into making sure the pointy-eared gits look gooooood...

I'd just like to see the whole Lumineth line. I really like some models, others, not so much.

Chopstick wrote:
Problem with these mallet is that they look ugly. Only things missing is giving the mallet to the cavalry so they can play polo.

Probably need some whack a mole terrain (mountains) and endless spells too.

Something like Eidolon's hammer would've been a way to do this, but maintain more of a traditional elven aesthetic

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
What frightens me most is that these Stoneguard are gonna end up with awesome rules that make them monsters on the table, so people are going to rush out and buy a ton of them.

GW: "See? People love the new look!"

That's what happened with Ossiarchs right? The reaction to the reveal was one big "Meeeeh" at best, even from a fandom that usually inflates itself to manchild levels of excitement over the slightest offering from GW. It felt like there was little in the way of hype, even compared to glorified updates like Ork Warclans.

Then it turns out their an S-tier army, extremely powerful and metadefining. Suddenly everybody and their mum is fielding them.

Plenty of people like Ossiarchs just for what they are. I think at present one downside some of the online comments have for AoS is that every time an army comes out there's abit of a hang over of "Oh I hope they are a re-creation of XYZ army from Old World".

Not an unfair desire and GW has fed that beast themselves with "the return of pointy aelves". Though I note that the core infantry, horse and archers for Luminoth are fairly standard elves, so far we've people complaining about one specialist elite unit. It's a bit like complaining that you don't like warp-spiders in Eldar- its a fair comment, but its far from the whole army.


Ossiarchs got the same, a lot of people wanted a Tomb Kings style undead army and didn't get one. So Ossiarchs got a bit of a negative backlash from that segment of the fanbase. It wasn't a problem with the design; just that it wasn't Tomb Kings.

Plus like a lot of newer AoS armies they suffer a little bit from a small model range at present; but that's nothing unique to them.

 Overread wrote:
Plenty of people like Ossiarchs just for what they are. I think at present one downside some of the online comments have for AoS is that every time an army comes out there's abit of a hang over of "Oh I hope they are a re-creation of XYZ army from Old World".

Not an unfair desire and GW has fed that beast themselves with "the return of pointy aelves". Though I note that the core infantry, horse and archers for Luminoth are fairly standard elves, so far we've people complaining about one specialist elite unit.

And the characters. And the archers.
Why cherry pick what people are complaining about and ignore the rest?

At this point, the phalanx and the knights are the minority (apparently just to sucker people in with nostalgia), and the terribly wacky stuff is most of the range. With the hollow knight as a middle ground that works for some people and not others.

So the Lumineth have four 'aspects' Zenith, Wind, Mountain, and River.

We have seen three mountain units: the cow, the hammer-elves and the floaty mage. The rest of the previewed units are generic, 'non-aspected,' right?

So does this mean that there are still at least nine more units to be revealed, three for each remaining aspect like the mountain got?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

And the characters. And the archers.
Why cherry pick what people are complaining about and ignore the rest?

At this point, the phalanx and the knights are the minority (apparently just to sucker people in with nostalgia), and the terribly wacky stuff is most of the range. With the hollow knight as a middle ground that works for some people and not others.

Personally the archers and the floaty mage are my favourites. I like the more apparent Chinese influence they have over the Greek vibe the other units have.

We haven't seen much with the Zenith bit, and the article I had pulled the runic mandala from made it sound like Zenith is a rarity so it might not get more than a character/mage.

And now for something completely different, the Battletome Seraphon Errata and Designers' Commentary have been posted.

 vipoid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.

Sigh. Feel free to read a physics textbook once in a while.

Firstly, having hammers that size isn't actually useful. The point of warhammers is to concentrate force into a relatively small area. Hence, their heads are still hammer-sized, not Loony-Toons-mallet-sized. By having them be this big, you're making them much harder to move and swing for virtually no gain.

Secondly, in practical terms, strength isn't actually the main problem. it's certainly *a* problem as, for example, no human alive would be able to heft weapons like that, so one's suspension of disbelief is already strained.

However, the main problem with human-sized creatures wielding preposterously large and heavy weapons is that they simply don't have the weight or grip to maintain their balance whilst swinging them. And, for about the 4th time, this has nothing to do with the user's strength, so magic super-strength won't actually help one iota with this issue.

That is a nice story, but this is magic so anything goes.

GW wrote:Q: How does the Rend characteristic of attacks interact with the Bastiladon while it has a 1+ Save characteristic?

A: An unmodified save roll of a 1 always fails. When a
save roll is modified by the Rend characteristic of an
attack, it can never be modified to less than 1. When
a model has a Save characteristic of 1+, modified save
rolls of 1 are successfully saved. This means, while
the Bastiladon has a Save characteristic of 1+, only
unmodified save rolls of 1 will inflict damage regardless
of the Rend characteristic of the weapon used for
the attack.[/i]

Holy crap... time for people to start looking for 1+ saves...

I think they overcomplicated themselves there and making bastilodons ignore rend as long as they are 1+ looks a little too powerfull.

edit Ignore me. I had a brain fart and forgot for a second what "unmodified" means.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
What frightens me most is that these Stoneguard are gonna end up with awesome rules that make them monsters on the table, so people are going to rush out and buy a ton of them.

GW: "See? People love the new look!"

That's what happened with Ossiarchs right? The reaction to the reveal was one big "Meeeeh" at best, even from a fandom that usually inflates itself to manchild levels of excitement over the slightest offering from GW. It felt like there was little in the way of hype, even compared to glorified updates like Ork Warclans.

Then it turns out their an S-tier army, extremely powerful and metadefining. Suddenly everybody and their mum is fielding them.

Uh, I disagree. A ton of people really like the look of them and committed to buy them even before the rules were out. Same with pointy elves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

GW wrote:Q: How does the Rend characteristic of attacks interact with the Bastiladon while it has a 1+ Save characteristic?

A: An unmodified save roll of a 1 always fails. When a
save roll is modified by the Rend characteristic of an
attack, it can never be modified to less than 1. When
a model has a Save characteristic of 1+, modified save
rolls of 1 are successfully saved. This means, while
the Bastiladon has a Save characteristic of 1+, only
unmodified save rolls of 1 will inflict damage regardless
of the Rend characteristic of the weapon used for
the attack.[/i]

Holy crap... time for people to start looking for 1+ saves...

This only applies to 1+ save CHARACTERISTICS not saves that can be modified to become that. Unless the number printed on the warscroll is 1+ this does not apply.

Or in simple terms, there is nothing else in the game this applies to. Right now. Which is good because IMO it is totally broken, but then bastiladons were already stupid so nothing new.