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They do; they can get demoted that way. Even down to the level of skeletal steed.

But yeah that's another good point; skeletons don't have souls they are just a body.

 GaroRobe wrote:
How do deathrattle skeletons work, now that Bonereapers are basically primaris skeleton? Sure, raising skeletons is easier than converting new bonereapers, and a necromancer can summon some skeletons on the fly. But wouldn't Nagash just want all the skeletons to walk to their nearest bonereaper for the tithe? In secluded places, like Cursed City, skeletons work. But I feel like in the greater scheme of things, they'd start becoming outmoded like Firstborn

Why didn't german army in ww2 build only king tigers? It's superior to pz-IV after all...

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
They do; they can get demoted that way. Even down to the level of skeletal steed.

But yeah that's another good point; skeletons don't have souls they are just a body.

Pretty sure LoN book (or was it Malign Portents book, i dont remember and can't check) has examples of shyishian kingdoms where the living work alongside their fully sentient skeletal ancestors as well as examples of kingdoms where the living are opressed by their deathrattle overlords, which requires some sort of sentience and intelligence, which in warhammer terms translates to soul. As usual, there's probably two ways to get skellies- natural shyishian magic/belief and forced necromantic practice...

I mean the basic skeleton warriors unit, not all deathrattle, apologies for the ambiguity!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/05/broken-realms-fiction-enlightenment/

Save me from another 'so good they're evil' trite morality cliche.

Really shouldn't be a shocking thing. The Lumineth seal off and destroy an entire ward of a city to stop a Daemonic incursion in the first fluff snippet in their book.

 GaroRobe wrote:
How do deathrattle skeletons work, now that Bonereapers are basically primaris skeleton? Sure, raising skeletons is easier than converting new bonereapers, and a necromancer can summon some skeletons on the fly. But wouldn't Nagash just want all the skeletons to walk to their nearest bonereaper for the tithe? In secluded places, like Cursed City, skeletons work. But I feel like in the greater scheme of things, they'd start becoming outmoded like Firstborn

Bonereapers require an entire logistics chain to create and maintain. The whole 'an army marches on it's stomach' can be replaced with Bone in their case, or so the snippets from White Dwarf seem to suggest. They take the harvested bone, process it and then craft into whatever it's meant to be used for - replacement limb, new Ossiarch, rebuilding an existing one, etc. That's not accounting for the souls needed to shove into them, especially when it seems they don't just slap any random farmer in there, but pick through them to find the most suitable be they soldiers for the infantry or lawyers, doctors, heroes, etc for the more specialised. The Mortisians seem quite proud of their work, more akin to artistry than just factory lines, which suggests it's a much more involved process than just an churning through whatever.

As you said, more 'Deathrattle' (ugh) you can just raise and away you go.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Really shouldn't be a shocking thing. The Lumineth seal off and destroy an entire ward of a city to stop a Daemonic incursion in the first fluff snippet in their book.

No, but they really need to find new tropes. Oh look, they brainwash the humans. Wowee, that's new!

Exactly. The fact that it isn't shocking is part of the problem.

It was an old and tired cliche (for AoS) when they had stormcast butcher villages for being attacked by nurgle forces back during whichever temporary event.

Its also just Elves Are Better Than You, dialed up to GrimDerp.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CantArgueWithElves

Hunting down the Complete Book of Elves for 2nd edition AD&D by Colin McComb (1993) will give some enlightenment on why this is just tired and played out, especially if you find some of the reviews referring to it by its alternate title.

For the differences between different Undead, I can recommend Liber Necris, an old art book thing they did, ostensibly written by Mannfred, before they made him a giant spoilt phallus.

Voss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/05/broken-realms-fiction-enlightenment/

Save me from another 'so good they're evil' trite morality cliche.

Oh great

I read it as GW backing up the flaws elves are supposed to have in the setting, namely supreme arrogance and racism. It didn't seem to me like the elves were better, it seemed like they specifically weren't; they just have their own special way of being complete dicks about it. They have all this magic and so-called enlightenment, which they use to be no better than human tyrants are. If anything it is dragging them down to human level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

Voss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/05/broken-realms-fiction-enlightenment/

Save me from another 'so good they're evil' trite morality cliche.

Oh great

Spoiler:

it's 1984.

Nowhere near nonsensical enough.

Not that this is at all the right place but it gets the most AoS traffic. (And people go off topic all the time )

Anybody have a link to some stl files that do the square to round conversion? (Preferably multiple size ones etc).
I’m aiming for like a free set of files to download from thingiverse or wherever, but a cursory search I couldn’t find any except one that has the squares hanging over.

Kritzas rats are huge.
Cool concept, and all in all a great model, but the rats are large as foxes.
Feels like a lazy design choise leaning on the tired "its fantasy, animals can be any size" explanation.

You say that like the Bosavi Wooly Rat (provisional name) isn’t a thing. Heck there’s an entire genus of cat-sized rats out there.

You worry about size? I find it lazy that they didn't bother to call them Direborn Deadgnawers or something. Rats? What kind of name is that supposed to be?

 Fayric wrote:
Kritzas rats are huge.
Cool concept, and all in all a great model, but the rats are large as foxes.
Feels like a lazy design choise leaning on the tired "its fantasy, animals can be any size" explanation.

*cough* https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/giant-rat-found-london-gas-engineer-finds-rodent-bigger-small-child-a6925591.html

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
*cough* https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/giant-rat-found-london-gas-engineer-finds-rodent-bigger-small-child-a6925591.html

Yeah, you know there are actual giant rat species around and there’s no need to repost pranks/tabloid lies that use forced perspective to make regular things look huge, right? I mean, look at the size of this donut!

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

Spoiler:

it's 1984.

More like

I quite like the concept, but the execution is... a bit crap, to be honest. Too rushed. Not subtle or gradual enough in the shift in tone. A decent first draft of an idea, but not something that should have been published, IMO.

And people wonder why you should never trust an Elf, no matter how silly the spelling they use is...

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Kritzas rats are huge.
Cool concept, and all in all a great model, but the rats are large as foxes.
Feels like a lazy design choise leaning on the tired "its fantasy, animals can be any size" explanation.

*cough* https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/giant-rat-found-london-gas-engineer-finds-rodent-bigger-small-child-a6925591.html

Also, we've had giant rats as a skaven unit forever. Sure, they're probably roided out on warpdust, but they're certainly not a new AOS thing. And for all we know, Kritzas was flaying skaven. Have a coat made out of skaven that looks nice and isn't covered in disease is a sign of wealth and uppe-rclassmanship.

 GaroRobe wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Kritzas rats are huge.
Cool concept, and all in all a great model, but the rats are large as foxes.
Feels like a lazy design choise leaning on the tired "its fantasy, animals can be any size" explanation.

*cough* https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/giant-rat-found-london-gas-engineer-finds-rodent-bigger-small-child-a6925591.html

Also, we've had giant rats as a skaven unit forever. Sure, they're probably roided out on warpdust, but they're certainly not a new AOS thing. And for all we know, Kritzas was flaying skaven. Have a coat made out of skaven that looks nice and isn't covered in disease is a sign of wealth and uppe-rclassmanship.

Given that disdain skaven (#Lizardsforever) I enjoy the thought of Skaven skin cloaks as status symbols, and will roll that into my own personal canon.

Voss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/05/broken-realms-fiction-enlightenment/

Save me from another 'so good they're evil' trite morality cliche.

Teclis was never "good" to begin with. He's been the "do what it takes for my people to be on top" character since the beginning with Tyrion being the moral one required to keep him in check.

The Lumineth following suit with their god is just par for the course.

It's important for many to steadily realise that just because you're not Chaos and just because you fight against Chaos; does not make you morally good. In fact you can be a horrible person and still fight against Chaos.

This is definitely where a quote from Lords and Ladies comes into play...

“Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.”

 Overread wrote:
It's important for many to steadily realise that just because you're not Chaos and just because you fight against Chaos; does not make you morally good. In fact you can be a horrible person and still fight against Chaos.

Yep - after all plenty of Chaos worshippers fight chaos, even Gw mention this when they did a cartoon showing the varied Order factions like the daughters of Khaine.

I quite liked the story - interested to see if its Elves being Elves or if there is underlying corruption in Hyish again as Slaanesh is breaking free - or both.

Anti-Chaos is not "good"

 Mr Morden wrote:

Anti-Chaos is not "good"

And Chaos doesn't have to be evil either.

There are plenty who turn to the dark gods who are not outright malicious or evil or twisted beyond the normal whims of humanity. Indeed some can have quite noble causes even honourable and loving causes. But Chaos twists, it corrupts and sinks its claws deep. The road to damnation is paved with good intentions.

I think the War Queen novella really shows this well for the Mortal Realms. It's one thing I really loved about it. Once you're at Chaos Warrior level you are mostly totally gone, yet at the lower ranks (which in the Old World past were often glossed over as just mindless rabble) in the Warbands and marauders and Dark Oath there's a lot of freedom of the individual and a lot of variety. From die-hard fanatics through to tribes and nations. Heck if you read stories about the Knights of Nurgle and such, even the fully corrupt are not without their own, twisted, sense of honour and such.


When you start to view Chaos outside of the fanatical and the insane you start to really see how "tempting" it can be. How morally good and upstanding people can be slowly twisted toward its desires. You can see how it sets in strong roots and might, for many generations, be nothing more than a whisper or a suggestion; or even something that benefits the people. Bringing them safety, security, food and wealth. Allowing them to survive against the war torn world, even against other Chaos Gods and their legions.

Not to mention that for many many people the choice is 'Chaos or die'.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Voss wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/05/broken-realms-fiction-enlightenment/

Save me from another 'so good they're evil' trite morality cliche.

Teclis was never "good" to begin with. He's been the "do what it takes for my people to be on top" character since the beginning with Tyrion being the moral one required to keep him in check.

The Lumineth following suit with their god is just par for the course.

Whatever. That isn't the point- I couldn't care less about Teclis.

Systematic mind rape and mass sacrifice in the name of protection makes them _completely_ unsympathetic, to the point that the rational path is to form a temporary alliance with Nagash and Archaeon and burn them out of the world utterly.

Worse, in terms of narrative, it just isn't interesting- they're just more cardboard monsters.

I mean...that's GW's way of doing "morally grey"- they mistake poop-brown for grey.

And Chaos doesn't have to be evil either.

Doesn't have to be, but that's how GW decided to go ahead with it. Chaos isn't chaotic, it's just self-destructive evil.