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Yup.

Rooty-toot-toot on my own well above average intelligence trumpet, it’s a constant source of bafflement how people do such Bloody Stupid Things.

But hey, if they didn’t, I’d be plumb out of a career, so swings and roundabouts I guess.

The trick being a PERSON might be quite intelligent, but PEOPLE on the average can be remarkably dumb.

For example, I'd imagine among the spring breakers in Florida right now, there are at least some 'A' average students.

I've read opinions that to determine the IQ of a group of people, divide the average IQ of the individuals in the group by the number of people in the group. One author compared a marching company of 100 men to a centipede.

Unfavorably, because at least the centipede is smart enough to not step on it's own feet.

 Vulcan wrote:
The trick being a PERSON might be quite intelligent, but PEOPLE on the average can be remarkably dumb.

For example, I'd imagine among the spring breakers in Florida right now, there are at least some 'A' average students.

I've read opinions that to determine the IQ of a group of people, divide the average IQ of the individuals in the group by the number of people in the group. One author compared a marching company of 100 men to a centipede.

Unfavorably, because at least the centipede is smart enough to not step on it's own feet.

As far as I can tell, IQ and ‘school smarts’ has zero correlation to common sense.
If fact I’ve observed the opposite - the higher education and IQ often means less use of common sense.

 Vulcan wrote:
The trick being a PERSON might be quite intelligent, but PEOPLE on the average can be remarkably dumb.

For example, I'd imagine among the spring breakers in Florida right now, there are at least some 'A' average students.

I've read opinions that to determine the IQ of a group of people, divide the average IQ of the individuals in the group by the number of people in the group. One author compared a marching company of 100 men to a centipede.

Unfavorably, because at least the centipede is smart enough to not step on it's own feet.

Yeah, the bigger the group of humans the more stupid it collectively becomes.

 Vulcan wrote:

I've read opinions that to determine the IQ of a group of people, divide the average IQ of the individuals in the group by the number of people in the group.

Terry Pratchett wrote:The IQ of a mob is the IQ of its most stupid member divided by the number of mobsters.

As usual, Pratchett has a quote for the situation

 Vulcan wrote:
I've read opinions that to determine the IQ of a group of people, divide the average IQ of the individuals in the group by the number of people in the group. One author compared a marching company of 100 men to a centipede.

You must be missing something there, because a group of 100 individuals with an average of 100 IQ would have a collective IQ of 1. You could divide the sum of each individual's IQ by the number of people, but that's kind of how you would determine the average of anything.

Of course, using the mean, median, or mode would all contain relevant information for a group of people, but I doubt it would accurately convey the intelligence of their behavior, since mob mentality usually involves people reverting to their reptilian brain, acting on fear and need for conformity, with an individual leader making the decisions for the group. Therefore, the most accurate measure of a group's IQ would be whatever the IQ is of the leader. But that then begs the question of whether Plato's concept of a philosopher king might not be appropriate, but that's a whole different ball of wax.

Ultimately, what it comes down to is that people will make the best decisions for themselves based on the information that is made available to them. If they get bad information, they will make bad decisions. The real problem occurs when people get conflicting information. People can't handle that, and tend to give up on making their own decisions and defer decision making to someone they trust. You can't blame the college kids going to spring break - they wouldn't have done it if they thought they were in any real danger. So the real culprit would be whomever gave them their information. But then you have to wonder, what if you are acting on bad information, yourself? How would you even know? You wouldn't. So what it all comes down to is trust, not IQ.

You must be missing the joke.

jouso wrote:


My point is CO/HCO is no wonder drug. It's just one of the few things for which there's some evidence that it does something so everyone is using it (especially because it's cheap and widespread) but we have to keep in mind its many dangers.

If using Chloroquine is standard practice in Spain at the moment then it would appear that its not the miracle Trump was looking for and it isn't going to make things get better rapidly as another poster suggested, given the health crisis and death tolls that Spain is currently experiencing.

I asked a family friend who is a public health expert about Chloroquine and related drugs last night, what he said that he only knew of 3 countries that were administering Chloroquine on a widespread basis (I'm guessing Spain was one of them), and none of them were really doing any better than those countries that are not. He did say its been used in other countries but he basically said the same thing I did earlier - its primarily on a trial basis (he specifically referenced France as an example, which apparently only authorized Chloroquine for use outside of trials earlier this week, and only in the most severe cases under strict supervision guidelines, and said that China only recently added Chloroquine to their general health guidelines for treating Coronavirus and its not yet clear how widespread its use there has ended up being) and hasn't been a widespread/generalized standard practice elsewhere thus far.

In the States, doctors are allowed to administer it as "compassionate use" but that basically means that all other options have been expended and the patients condition is severe enough that the risks associated with the use of Chloroquine are minimal compared to the likelihood that the patient will die if nothing is done, and said most doctors here probably won't use it unless the patient demands it or the use guidelines are updated.

So not only are the death rates skewed if you look at who is reporting infection vs not reporting infection that is also skewed. Without any empirical data to back this up I would guesstimate that the virus has infected more people and has a much lower mortality rate than is being reported. Its just like influenza every year. If I get the flu and infect my wife but neither of us are hospitalized or die how does the CDC know or incorporate our two cases into their overall numbers for the number of infected vs mortality rate. If both of us were to go to the hospital and one of us died from the flu that would paint a much more stark picture of its lethality in relation to infection from just that small sample size.

The influenza mortality rate is also based on the number of cases reported. Its generally estimated that between 95% and 99% of influenza cases go unreported based on the source. So yes, coronavirus likely has a lower mortality rate than the flu does, but the flu also has a lower mortality rate than the flu does - in all likelihood, Coronavirus is still significantly more lethal than influenza.

Everyone can go to the hospital of Marseille and get freely screened for covid19. If they have it they will freely give them chloroquine. So many people are taking it there are shortage for people who actually need it like immunodeficient people, unfortunately.
They are queueing by hundreds at the hospital and the tests are made outside for some.
Pr.Didier Raoult actually launched this initiative.

Thats contrary to the guidelines issued by the French public health council: https://www.thelocal.fr/20200324/france-allows-chloroquine-to-be-given-to-gravest-coronavirus-cases At this point I'm not entirely sure whether to believe you or a public health expert and a french news article which quotes the Health Minister...

While it is possible, I'd be more likely to believe this if the number of cases in Germany was considerably lower than Spain's. After all, if they are catching the disease before it spreads, they should have fewer cases, right? And if the mortality rate was a static number, then they'd have a similar mortality/hospitalization rate compared to the number of cases, which they absolutely do not. For instance, when I checked yesterday, Germany only had 23 cases in the hospital. That makes it seem like the difference happens before medical treatment is required.

80% of Germany's cases have been under the age of 60, that is the stark difference that causes Germany to have a lower mortality rate than Spain. Mortality is not a static number, as a 20 year old you have a .0something% chance of dying to coronavirus, at 50-60 years of age the number is about 4%, above 70 it jumps to 8% and at around 80 its above 15%.

Sarouan wrote:
The sad thing is that there will always be people only concerned when the virus is actually falling on them. You can't ask them to have empathy or understand other people's suffering when they never cared about it before. In a way, that's why we have this situation - as long as the virus stayed outside of our country's doors, we can always say it's not our problem. Once it is there, now it suddenly becomes different - but of course, it's too late, the pandemic already happened.

A lot of conservative guys are angry that their world is changing because of the pandemic. So it's more acceptable to deny its actual danger and minimize its impact. That's how they dealt with everything before, why would they consider it differently now ?

It's easy to be cold and say other people's lives don't matter, when you're not impacted.

This virus makes both the worst and the best from humans. And it's plainly obvious to watch.

I mean, just watch the number of people still talking about economy having to take priority over people's health. Well, they're not saying it that way, but that's the message. Our beliefs will have to be shaken, because the virus doesn't care about politics or human delusions. It happens nonetheless.

Only someone simpleminded thinks you can detach the economy from peoples overall health, that doesn't even get into the studies about the short term damage to people health (mental and physical) of the current reactions. I guess the "conservatives" are the only one thinking about long term impacts of knee jerk reactions........

A British diplomat apparently just died from the disease. He was only 37.

I keep telling myself, it’s always darkest before the dawn.

People need to set their expectations that there aren't going to be miracle cures or treatments, and that a vaccine is probably 18-24 months away. Even during normal times, mass media almost always sensationalizes or fails to properly understand the results of drug studies. It's nuts.

It'll probably be even worse now that media and public are ready to grasp at straws for something that can reverse the crisis or return us to normalcy ASAP.

Yeah there was something on the radio today, saying that if the economy falls by more than 6%, the lives lost eventually due to this would be greater than those saved regarding the virus(?)They called it the J equation or something? I only heard it in passing and meant to look it up later.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
A British diplomat apparently just died from the disease. He was only 37.

I keep telling myself, it’s always darkest before the dawn.

I take reassurance that at least this time around, there are simple, albeit fallible precautions.

Limit contact. Wash your hands. Don’t be a filth wizard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mind, all this hand washing has wrecked the skin on my hands. Had to dig out my moisturiser.

I have to say, the education response to this has been outstanding. My boys are in a zoom meeting with their teachers right now, there was a very well organized pickup line for textbooks at the school this morning, and food is being distributed in baggies for any students. Our approaches are far from standardized, but all of the teachers at my school are distributing content, and the students seem to be adapting to the new resources well. I'm very optimistic about our ability to continue to educate students through the pandemic.

 Gitzbitah wrote:
I have to say, the education response to this has been outstanding. My boys are in a zoom meeting with their teachers right now, there was a very well organized pickup line for textbooks at the school this morning, and food is being distributed in baggies for any students. Our approaches are far from standardized, but all of the teachers at my school are distributing content, and the students seem to be adapting to the new resources well. I'm very optimistic about our ability to continue to educate students through the pandemic.

What province are you in? So far the Alberta schools have done nothing at all.
I’m having to use the workbooks I bought for them last year. Thankfully the education system is so behind, the grade previous to their current has plenty of material they still have yet to cover.
I’d have to say that so far Canada’s response has been poor to terrible.

 Vulcan wrote:


I've read opinions that to determine the IQ of a group of people, divide the average IQ of the individuals in the group by the number of people in the group.

That's actually a Pratchett quote, or one of several Pratchett quotes on the same subject.

Always accurate.

It’s something like ‘the IQ of the being known as a mob is the square root of the number of its members’

If memory serves.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Yeah there was something on the radio today, saying that if the economy falls by more than 6%, the lives lost eventually due to this would be greater than those saved regarding the virus(?)They called it the J equation or something? I only heard it in passing and meant to look it up later.

You can probably offset some of those financially-induced deaths against the lives saved due to the positive impacts of this situation to the climate and environment.

In any case, theres a serious disconnect in the minds of those simpleminded conservatives that are prioritizing economic health over public health - the economy will ultimately fail if we back off preventative measures and allow Coronavirus to run rampant. Detaching peoples health from the economy works both ways. Sure, we might "get over the hump" in a few weeks, but there will be a major and long-lasting economic blow that will result from health services being completely overwhelmed and failing entirely when suddenly everyone gets sick at once and an estimated 1.7 and 2.2 million Americans (90 million worldwide) drop dead within a span of a couple weeks (almost as much as will die over the course of the entire year on average). This will have ripple effects on productivity in other industries, the housing market (older citizens are more likely to be homeowners, if a million houses suddenly became vacant then the supply has just vastly increased relative to demand and home values will collapse, to say nothing about the senior living communities that have entered into vogue for commercial real estate development firms, etc.), etc. etc. etc. This isn't me just making gak up, there is the concept of the value of a statistical life, VSL estimates of doing nothing on COVID place the cost of doing nothing in the US at $8.5 trillion, i.e. half of the US GDP, and that only includes the costs for the resulting deaths, not the costs associated with those who survive it and the impact to other sectors of the economy, which will grow that number substantially.

Also lets keep in mind that its *still* not clear that herd immunity can be established with COVID-19, there is anecdotal evidence that re-infection is possible within the timeframe of a few weeks. We could find that by "restarting the economy" we are letting a viral genie out of the bottle and will be dealing ourselves a critical blow that will have much harsher and longer lasting effects than the "hammer and dance" approach we are currently taking.

chaos0xomega wrote:
In the States, doctors are allowed to administer it as "compassionate use" but that basically means that all other options have been expended and the patients condition is severe enough that the risks associated with the use of Chloroquine are minimal compared to the likelihood that the patient will die if nothing is done, and said most doctors here probably won't use it unless the patient demands it or the use guidelines are updated.

Chloroquine is not a particularly complicated drug to issue once its limits are known. I've had a lot of it back when Malarone was terribly expensive and it was a choice of CO or Lariam as anti-Malarial protection (meaning you started to take it a week before traveling and you took it every day). It used to be sold OTC.

But again, on COVID-19 it's basically a side effect, and very contingent on many other factors.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s something like ‘the IQ of the being known as a mob is the square root of the number of its members’

If memory serves.

That's one. The other is the IQ of a mob is that of its dumbest member divided by the number of people in it.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Yeah there was something on the radio today, saying that if the economy falls by more than 6%, the lives lost eventually due to this would be greater than those saved regarding the virus(?)They called it the J equation or something? I only heard it in passing and meant to look it up later.

You can probably offset some of those financially-induced deaths against the lives saved due to the positive impacts of this situation to the climate and environment.

In any case, theres a serious disconnect in the minds of those simpleminded conservatives that are prioritizing economic health over public health - the economy will ultimately fail if we back off preventative measures and allow Coronavirus to run rampant. Detaching peoples health from the economy works both ways. Sure, we might "get over the hump" in a few weeks, but there will be a major and long-lasting economic blow that will result from health services being completely overwhelmed and failing entirely when suddenly everyone gets sick at once and an estimated 1.7 and 2.2 million Americans (90 million worldwide) drop dead within a span of a couple weeks (almost as much as will die over the course of the entire year on average). This will have ripple effects on productivity in other industries, the housing market (older citizens are more likely to be homeowners, if a million houses suddenly became vacant then the supply has just vastly increased relative to demand and home values will collapse, to say nothing about the senior living communities that have entered into vogue for commercial real estate development firms, etc.), etc. etc. etc. This isn't me just making gak up, there is the concept of the value of a statistical life, VSL estimates of doing nothing on COVID place the cost of doing nothing in the US at $8.5 trillion, i.e. half of the US GDP, and that only includes the costs for the resulting deaths, not the costs associated with those who survive it and the impact to other sectors of the economy, which will grow that number substantially.

Also lets keep in mind that its *still* not clear that herd immunity can be established with COVID-19, there is anecdotal evidence that re-infection is possible within the timeframe of a few weeks. We could find that by "restarting the economy" we are letting a viral genie out of the bottle and will be dealing ourselves a critical blow that will have much harsher and longer lasting effects than the "hammer and dance" approach we are currently taking.

A No one is priortizing public health over economic health nor doing nothing, smart people are trying to find the right balance understanding that they are tied together in both directions.

B Tell me how we get through two years until we get to a vaccine ? Locking everyone up until then isn't realistic which implies at some point we have to start relaxing the current restrictions before we have a vaccine so thinking about the various risk and how to balance then is what Leaders should be doing.

If you want to have a serious discussion address B, if you're just trying to score political points continue to intentionally misinterpret the other side and I'll know not to bother with you anymore.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
they are. my wife is freaking out because our hospital has basically said i can be there for the birth, but thats it. soon as baby appears I'm out. its insanity.

I’m lucky. The hospital my wife just gave birth in (yup, I’m officially a dad for the first time!!) allows visitors ONLY for maternity and hospice. And even then, it’s ONLY the spouse allowed. Nobody else under any circumstances. Strange and uncertain (scary) times for those of us bringing a new life into the world! Good luck QAR!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But hey, if they didn’t, I’d be plumb out of a career, so swings and roundabouts I guess.

You're gonna be a very busy man.

So this was Disneyland's Magic Kingdom on 3/15. I'm not entire sure from the twitter quote if it's the last day of the park, or last day of a cancelled Disney College program: "Hundreds of Cast Members, myself included, are here to say goodbye to the Magic Kingdom and Walt Disney World for the time being. But, this is also a celebration of the thousands of Disney College Program participants who had their program ended suddenly this weekend. We ❤️ you!" : https://twitter.com/TharinWhite/status/1239366334842056704



Good luck to the guy in NY. The USA has reported in Los Angeles, CA, the first under-18 death. News just broke out, so more details are needed to see if they victim had an existing condition. "The patient tested positive for the virus, but there may be an “alternate explanation” for the death as the case is complex." https://time.com/5809385/los-angeles-under-18-died-coronavirus-first-child-united-states/

Also found an article about take-out food. Basically, it's safe. Support your local business! : https://www.seriouseats.com/2020/03/food-safety-and-coronavirus-a-comprehensive-guide.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+seriouseatsfeaturesvideos+%28Serious+Eats%29

Non-food auotes from the article:

Why does Covid-19 seem to be spreading faster than previous coronavirus epidemics?

One likely answer is "stealth" spreading. Those infected with SARS-CoV-2 typically don't show symptoms for several days, and even then, symptoms can be mild, leading them to attend public events and mingle with crowds as they normally would. Consequently, according to a mathematical simulation published in the journal Science, 86% of Covid-19 infections were undocumented prior to the January 23rd travel restrictions implemented by many countries, following the World Health Organization declaration that the outbreak was an international emergency. ...

Additionally, the journal Nature reports that researchers have identified an enzyme found in human cells called furin that might factor into Covid-19 activation. This is significant because furin is found in cells in the lungs, liver, and small intestines, making them all potential sites for Covid-19 infection, though the scientists warn that this is still an untested hypothesis, and that coronaviruses can act unpredictably.

What exactly does "flatten the curve" mean?

"Flattening the curve" is not necessarily about limiting the total number of infections caused by the outbreak. Rather, the idea is to spread those infections out over as long a period of time as possible in order to ease the strain on our healthcare system.

The New York Times reported on a Harvard University analysis that showed that even in a moderate scenario that assumes 40% of American adults contract the coronavirus some time in the next 12 months, hospitals in many areas of the country will need two to three times the number of beds they currently have. If that same 40% gets infected in a six month period, that number jumps up to four to six times as many.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
they are. my wife is freaking out because our hospital has basically said i can be there for the birth, but thats it. soon as baby appears I'm out. its insanity.

I’m lucky. The hospital my wife just gave birth in (yup, I’m officially a dad for the first time!!) allows visitors ONLY for maternity and hospice. And even then, it’s ONLY the spouse allowed. Nobody else under any circumstances. Strange and uncertain (scary) times for those of us bringing a new life into the world! Good luck QAR!

Congratulations!

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
they are. my wife is freaking out because our hospital has basically said i can be there for the birth, but thats it. soon as baby appears I'm out. its insanity.

I’m lucky. The hospital my wife just gave birth in (yup, I’m officially a dad for the first time!!) allows visitors ONLY for maternity and hospice. And even then, it’s ONLY the spouse allowed. Nobody else under any circumstances. Strange and uncertain (scary) times for those of us bringing a new life into the world! Good luck QAR!

Congratulations! you have many years of amazing times, (and hell) to come haha

 Ghool wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:
I have to say, the education response to this has been outstanding. My boys are in a zoom meeting with their teachers right now, there was a very well organized pickup line for textbooks at the school this morning, and food is being distributed in baggies for any students. Our approaches are far from standardized, but all of the teachers at my school are distributing content, and the students seem to be adapting to the new resources well. I'm very optimistic about our ability to continue to educate students through the pandemic.

What province are you in? So far the Alberta schools have done nothing at all.
I’m having to use the workbooks I bought for them last year. Thankfully the education system is so behind, the grade previous to their current has plenty of material they still have yet to cover.
I’d have to say that so far Canada’s response has been poor to terrible.

Weird, it's showing me as Canadian! Despite my forum flag, I'm from USA, teaching down in Hillsborough County, Florida. I'm afraid I know less than you about Candian schools, sorry.

The local schools in Georgia have been preparing and giving out school lunches to local children in the area. As well as providing their books and worksheets. Its a sad truth that many children get their only meals from their school.

 Ghool wrote:

As far as I can tell, IQ and ‘school smarts’ has zero correlation to common sense.
If fact I’ve observed the opposite - the higher education and IQ often means less use of common sense.

Yeah lots of people who ace there INT roll seem to do poorly with the WIS stat

Work was not too bad today, we nearly hit our expected sales target that was set before the lockdown. But with the M.O.T extension announced today we are expecting trade sales to fall of the same cliff as retail. Speaking of which we have now locked the shop doors and are only letting one person at a time in. And then only if they have phoned ahead to order essential spare parts(turned a guy away today who wanted three cans of spray lacquer). Seems that head office wants to cover the company's backside from any accusations that we are flouting the rules regarding non essential retail and keep the staff safe But we are starting to get low on cleaning disinfectant, not sure what will happen if the restock doesn't turn up.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Everyone can go to the hospital of Marseille and get freely screened for covid19. If they have it they will freely give them chloroquine. So many people are taking it there are shortage for people who actually need it like immunodeficient people, unfortunately.
They are queueing by hundreds at the hospital and the tests are made outside for some.
Pr.Didier Raoult actually launched this initiative.

Thats contrary to the guidelines issued by the French public health council: https://www.thelocal.fr/20200324/france-allows-chloroquine-to-be-given-to-gravest-coronavirus-cases At this point I'm not entirely sure whether to believe you or a public health expert and a french news article which quotes the Health Minister...

It is. This doctor Raoult (by his own words "a rockstar in the epidemiologist community") is convinced it helps, and is going against official French policy by administering it wholesale because he says "I know it is the answer and to not administer it would be unethical" or words to that effect.

So I had a delivery today from one of the regular drivers we've gotten to know pretty well. (Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to get one without giving Boris a reach-around, even if it is tougher than usual.)

He told me that they'd had to throw out a member of the pork from the store today because, on being told that, no, they couldn't have four loaves of bread because everyone was under a hard three per item limit, chose, instead of accepting the small sacrifice for the benefit of others, to spit on the fourth loaf.

FFS.

"the pork" ???

Last I checked that was in the meat aisle? Why is there pork dribble on the bread? What's going on - stop inventing new slang and making me feel old!