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We have wet markets in the US, moreso in ethnic neighborhoods in urban areas from my experience, but they exist in rural red state America as well so that people can pick the cow or pig or what have you that they feed their family and friends at their house party or barbecue cookout, etc.

Difference is that in the US and other parts of the world there are strict health code and animal welfare requirements that make them significantly cleaner and safer environments for both animals and people, and they are much less likely to result in cross-species diseases or zoonosis as a result. It also helps that these markets deal primarily in domesticated animals/livestock that are farm raised and monitored throughout their lifecycles for disease and illness, etc. The markets in China (and elsewhere) often deal with bush-meat and wild-caught animals that do not have the benefit of husbandry and animal welfare requirements, and as such are subject to whatever diseases are rampant in the local wildlife populations, and the markets themselves have very loose sanitation and hygiene codes/policies that exacerbate the problem further.

exactly, thats what I was getting at. its a moot point as the chinese government arent going to crack down on it, ironically enough.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Right now it's hard to not mention politics because currently in most of our respective countries, politics are playing a huge part in the steps being taken because of the phases of response we are currently in, because things are settling down from just pure panic.

Yeah. Unfortunately, it's been very intertwined with politics in a few countries. I've been trying to avoid going there in this thread though. I'm increasingly concerned about what that means for our country's ability to handle this, and I'm not even picking sides when I say that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
Not so good for businesses that make their money from constructing office buildings, of course...

I've been telling people for years that I'd avoid any long-term bets on commercial office space like the plague. My rationale has been that *at some point* companies are going to figure out just how many functions can be done remotely AS LONG AS you have the right policies, structures, technology, etc. in place. And the ensuring collapse could be quick. This thing could finally be the trigger.

 gorgon wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Right now it's hard to not mention politics because currently in most of our respective countries, politics are playing a huge part in the steps being taken because of the phases of response we are currently in, because things are settling down from just pure panic.

Yeah. Unfortunately, it's been very intertwined with politics in a few countries. I've been trying to avoid going there in this thread though. I'm increasingly concerned about what that means for our country's ability to handle this, and I'm not even picking sides when I say that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
Not so good for businesses that make their money from constructing office buildings, of course...

I've been telling people for years that I'd avoid any long-term bets on commercial office space like the plague. My rationale has been that *at some point* companies are going to figure out at some point just how many functions can be done remotely AS LONG AS you have the right policies, structures, technology, etc. in place. And the ensuring collapse could be quick. This thing could finally be the trigger.

Brazil has become virtually impossible to discuss mostly due to the nature of their government.

Also, in italy the mafia seemingly will gain on influence because they are faster at social aid then the regular government.

Looking at the UK stats from
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

The number of new cases appears to have levelled off on a daily growth aspect. Though we are still in the whole 5K new cases per day category.

The number of deaths is a curious table as it shows a series of small "humps" in the flow of values. Fingers crossed that the new peaks of these start to go down. We've seen a marked drop today, though that links to a natural dip that we'd expect (the dip is better than previous ones); its still up in the air if the peak of the new rise and fall ends up greater or less than we've seen previously.



Also I would guess we should hopefully start entering a period now where we see the daily recovery values growing without the death rate growing.

Fingers crossed about the stats, but we often have a lag in the numbers over the weekend. Still its kinda mind blowing that 449 hospital deaths is seen as a good day.

I fully expect the number to go up again, the question is if it jumps up to the nearly 1K daily deaths that we've nearly had in the recent past or if we are getting on top of things and will see it lower.

queen_annes_revenge wrote:Granted, but you can go online and see the grim ones in real life video footage. its nothing to do with some imagined yellow peril. I did clarify in my statement that not all food markets are bad or particularly unhygienic, which is why the bad ones you see are even more unacceptable.

You can do the same for western factory farms. Some stuff's good and some is bad no matter which country you look at. On top of that some places also have Ag-gag laws so that it's harder to find footage of how bad it can be over here.

https://www.aspca.org/animal-protection/public-policy/what-ag-gag-legislation

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/07/us/taping-of-farm-cruelty-is-becoming-the-crime.html

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/1/11/18176551/ag-gag-laws-factory-farms-explained

We have a growing issue with more antibiotic resistance becoming a thing due to the absurdly high use of antibiotics in farming.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-drug-resistant-bacteria-travel-from-the-farm-to-your-table/

https://www.grain.org/en/article/6240-the-rise-of-the-superbugs-and-why-industrial-farming-is-to-blame

https://www.wired.com/story/farm-antibiotics-human-illness-hidden-link/

We had the United Kingdom BSE outbreak and such problems can come from anywhere if we aren't careful. Europe also doesn't want a bunch of US food imports for various reasons (like the widely known chlorinated chicken import ban). And it seems like China wants to restrict wet markets as a result of this pandemic. So things should improve as we get better standards everywhere.

Oil has dropped to its lowest price in history.. Under $0 a barrel.. Not sure how that works. Maybe someone who understands economics can explain it

It's apparently -$32 per barrel.

the dip in deaths seems to come just after the weekend (I wonder if it fits with shift patterns with the dip being staff coming on who are 'fresh' off their rest days

working in the ICU with all the protective gear is very draining so with the best will in the world by the end of a period of shifts the staff may not be able to function as well as they did at the start

The NHS has had previous form in terms of nights and weekends having more junior and less senior staff at work

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Oil has dropped to its lowest price in history.. Under $0 a barrel.. Not sure how that works. Maybe someone who understands economics can explain it

Similar to negative equity I'd imagine. The oil costs more to make then it sells for on the open market.

 filbert wrote:
It's apparently -$32 per barrel.

Probably want to empty their warehouses?
That's about the only thing that comes to my mind.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
the dip in deaths seems to come just after the weekend (I wonder if it fits with shift patterns with the dip being staff coming on who are 'fresh' off their rest days

working in the ICU with all the protective gear is very draining so with the best will in the world by the end of a period of shifts the staff may not be able to function as well as they did at the start

The NHS has had previous form in terms of nights and weekends having more junior and less senior staff at work

I believe some of the dip is due to a reduction in reporting over the weekend. Ergo a lot of the admin side are not working over the weekend so whilst the number of deaths might go up they aren't processed until a little later. That would make sense if their stats are counting them as they get processed even if the processing happens on a different day rather than back-tracking and changing stats a day later. But I've no idea, I just seem to recall that there was some mention at some stage in one of the daily updates that it was linked to admin/reporting rather than to anything else.

If it was linked to staff fatigue in such a big way you'd think they would be staggering staff far more so to spread them out through the week rather than have clear boom and busts over the weekend. Especially since with schools down and much of society out of action its not as if they need to be slaved to the traditional 7 day week structure.


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GoatboyBeta wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Oil has dropped to its lowest price in history.. Under $0 a barrel.. Not sure how that works. Maybe someone who understands economics can explain it

Similar to negative equity I'd imagine. The oil costs more to make then it sells for on the open market.

Whilst at the same time likely not being cost-effective to short term shut down production. So they'll keep producing even at a loss. If anything I'd imagine stockpiling should be happening. Governments making stockpiles ready for an economic reboot right after (nice way to keep fuel prices down for a little post-lockdown and encourage more free travel and spending within the country). Meanwhile oil producing nations know this is a short term blip. Whilst airlines might take time to recover, you can bet once this is all over fuel use will resume to high values. So they'll be back into the profits in no time. Plus they've got vast wealth, a short term downturn won't likely harm them.

So my home state has decided to start opening businesses back up starting roughly next week..........I'd rather wish we were the volunteer state of something else
Sure do hope all the people protesting for haircuts and getting in a game of golf enjoy themselves for things go south again

 greenskin lynn wrote:
So my home state has decided to start opening businesses back up starting roughly next week..........I'd rather wish we were the volunteer state of something else
Sure do hope all the people protesting for haircuts and getting in a game of golf enjoy themselves for things go south again

How long were you in lockdown for?

 gorgon wrote:

I've been telling people for years that I'd avoid any long-term bets on commercial office space like the plague. My rationale has been that *at some point* companies are going to figure out just how many functions can be done remotely AS LONG AS you have the right policies, structures, technology, etc. in place. And the ensuring collapse could be quick. This thing could finally be the trigger.

Indeed, I suspect an increasing number of companies will eschew office space entirely, either maintaining just a bare-minimum executive space or going entirely work-from-home and utilising by-the-hour hired meeting spaces when they do need to get people in the same room. This could be a good time for cafes and restaurants to add in a professional-looking, AV- and WiFi-equipped meeting room, if they don't already have one...

I think a bit thing will be how the remote working software providers react once the disaster is mostly over. Right now a lot of them are offering software with big discounts or even free. I can see some businesses getting scared off if those costs go up significantly overnight once lockdowns lift. It goes form "hey this is perhaps cheaper" to "oh darn that's a big cost and I've still got to pay office space because I've not got rid of it - perhaps in another fiscal year....".

I wager if they take the Adobe path - ergo really cheap monthly costs - the providers could likely take less per customer, but pick up a huge amount more regular trade as a result.


Otherwise the whole work from home could die before it gets off the ground. That said I can see a lot of psuh from workers keen to recover 2 hours commuting time and also all that saved fuel/travel money in their weekly budget. Plus talking to others working from home there's far more temptation to work "after hours" when the office is in your own house. Employers could potentially see increased work rates rather than the, I suspect, often feared reduced work rates from people working from home. And this is at a time when many are also looking after kids because they aren't at school.

 Overread wrote:

 greenskin lynn wrote:
So my home state has decided to start opening businesses back up starting roughly next week..........I'd rather wish we were the volunteer state of something else
Sure do hope all the people protesting for haircuts and getting in a game of golf enjoy themselves for things go south again

How long were you in lockdown for?

i want to say its been 6ish weeks or so for good old Tennessee, maybe. I had other things going on towards the start that resulted in mostly staying in regardless, so the start of everything shutting down kind of slipped by me, at least locally
I'm also in an extremely rural part of the state, so input from places like nashville or memphis would probably be of more use for how much the governor is jumping the gun

In theory 6 weeks might be enough to dull the peak and then re-open provided you've started to see the number of active cases reducing and a reduction in the spread at the same time - esp in key urban areas.

Of course that's only dulling the blow, a rise in infection would be expected after any opening up followed by a likely second lockdown after if the infection rate starts to spike.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Fingers crossed about the stats, but we often have a lag in the numbers over the weekend. Still its kinda mind blowing that 449 hospital deaths is seen as a good day.

Don't be too impressed by figures.
In France, in a normal year, 600k people die. That's 1,600 a day.
Yes, an American civil war evey year (about 700k are born though).
I guess it's very close to the U.K. normal figures

These are deaths specifically attributed to people with a positive Covid diagnosis, they're not just reporting how many people died each day.

 greenskin lynn wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 greenskin lynn wrote:
So my home state has decided to start opening businesses back up starting roughly next week..........I'd rather wish we were the volunteer state of something else
Sure do hope all the people protesting for haircuts and getting in a game of golf enjoy themselves for things go south again

How long were you in lockdown for?

i want to say its been 6ish weeks or so for good old Tennessee, maybe. I had other things going on towards the start that resulted in mostly staying in regardless, so the start of everything shutting down kind of slipped by me, at least locally
I'm also in an extremely rural part of the state, so input from places like nashville or memphis would probably be of more use for how much the governor is jumping the gun

Tennessee's official stay in place went into effect April 2nd. So 18 days. It's been interesting to watch how states and the populace handle things. I paid attention to TN because we were there visiting family the first week of march when it was really just starting.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 greenskin lynn wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 greenskin lynn wrote:
So my home state has decided to start opening businesses back up starting roughly next week..........I'd rather wish we were the volunteer state of something else
Sure do hope all the people protesting for haircuts and getting in a game of golf enjoy themselves for things go south again

How long were you in lockdown for?

i want to say its been 6ish weeks or so for good old Tennessee, maybe. I had other things going on towards the start that resulted in mostly staying in regardless, so the start of everything shutting down kind of slipped by me, at least locally
I'm also in an extremely rural part of the state, so input from places like nashville or memphis would probably be of more use for how much the governor is jumping the gun

Tennessee's official stay in place went into effect April 2nd. So 18 days. It's been interesting to watch how states and the populace handle things. I paid attention to TN because we were there visiting family the first week of march when it was really just starting.

Wait, TN didnt even make it 3 weeks?
Here in cali we have been like.....nearly 7 weeks.
Pansies

https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/kentucky-sees-highest-spike-in-coronavirus-cases-after-protests/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=facebook_app&fbclid=IwAR0OBVw5KVL4rcws5BK5X_KLsaIP8-yxjYgxpUGQGIZdyC3Hln8nOjpi9eI

Facepalm is about right reaction for this. People gathered together, corona cases spiked up. Hardly surprising turn of events.

not even 3 weeks.....feth, i guess my idea of 6 weeks was when some local places started keeping people out or something. time has been strange in recent days

 gorgon wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Right now it's hard to not mention politics because currently in most of our respective countries, politics are playing a huge part in the steps being taken because of the phases of response we are currently in, because things are settling down from just pure panic.

Yeah. Unfortunately, it's been very intertwined with politics in a few countries. I've been trying to avoid going there in this thread though. I'm increasingly concerned about what that means for our country's ability to handle this, and I'm not even picking sides when I say that.

It's different in different countries though. In the US politics is so intertwined in daily life (and divided), it's impssible to avoid. In the Netherlands, OTOH, both the people and opposition parties have basically realised the gravity of the situation and that at times like this we cannot afford to have more than one captain on the ship and everybody seems willing to go along with the current government until this is over. And to be honest, while I disagree with him and his party vehemently on the political side of things, credit where it's due, he's handling this very well.

I am also seriously considering starting to buy stocks in (some of the larger) oil companies. WIth the current crash of oil prices, their stocks will drop massively, but I'm betting they'll rise again when this is over. Beer-/beverage stocks also seem a good investment now. With bars and restaurants closed they're not selling as much, so stocks are down as well. I expect they'll pick up much quicker when this is over than fuel companies though.

 godardc wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Fingers crossed about the stats, but we often have a lag in the numbers over the weekend. Still its kinda mind blowing that 449 hospital deaths is seen as a good day.

Don't be too impressed by figures.
In France, in a normal year, 600k people die. That's 1,600 a day.
Yes, an American civil war evey year (about 700k are born though).
I guess it's very close to the U.K. normal figures

That's obviously not comparing like with like. You're saying the Covid-19 numbers aren't that high if you compare them with how many people usually die of everything, but other fatal illnesses don't take some time off and let CV have its turn.

England and Wale's late march 5-year average is about 10,000 deaths a week. It was 16,000 this year. The jump is significant.

nfe wrote:

 godardc wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Fingers crossed about the stats, but we often have a lag in the numbers over the weekend. Still its kinda mind blowing that 449 hospital deaths is seen as a good day.

Don't be too impressed by figures.
In France, in a normal year, 600k people die. That's 1,600 a day.
Yes, an American civil war evey year (about 700k are born though).
I guess it's very close to the U.K. normal figures

That's obviously not comparing like with like. You're saying the Covid-19 numbers aren't that high if you compare them with how many people usually die of everything, but other fatal illnesses don't take some time off and let CV have its turn.

England and Wale's late march 5-year average is about 10,000 deaths a week. It was 16,000 this year. The jump is significant.

Wasn't there some pages back a link showing that covid 19 allready outpaced the flue by about 2 months?

Found it.

 Ouze wrote:
We're just over 34,000 dead in the US from this, which means Covid has killed as many people in about 4 weeks as the last flu season did over 4 months.

So much for "just the seasonal flu".

Indeed, but its likely that some of those deaths are due to some people not receiving medical attention for other things like cancer etc. I'm not saying this is fact, but it has been mentioned in articles I've read on the issue