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This was on my bing homepage today.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/va-study-of-anti-malarial-drug-shows-no-benefit-for-use-with-coronavirus-patients/

Not much of a surprise at this point.

It started coming up fairly early on, so there has been time to do proper controlled studies on it (rather than giving it to patients who are likely to die anyway, and hoping the drug is what tilts the odds)

Even in the non-clinical trials, there weren't enough reports of consistent positive results for it to be likely.

I hadn't realized it actually raised the death rate though. One more reason to muzzle people who want to declare success and make recommendations before actual research is done.
That said, there is still more work to be done with this, so it is good there are other trials ongoing. The higher death rate may be influenced by the very nature of VA hospitals, with a higher average of older patients with heart conditions, for example. [Sure, there could be a higher proportion of 'Desert Wars' vets, but typically when I think of VA hospitals, I think a higher number of Vietnam era vets.

Voss wrote:
I hadn't realized it actually raised the death rate though. One more reason to muzzle people who want to declare success and make recommendations before actual research is done.
That said, there is still more work to be done with this, so it is good there are other trials ongoing. The higher death rate may be influenced by the very nature of VA hospitals, with a higher average of older patients with heart conditions, for example. [Sure, there could be a higher proportion of 'Desert Wars' vets, but typically when I think of VA hospitals, I think a higher number of Vietnam era vets.

I mean, the drug's an immunosuppressant with severe cardiological and vision related side effects, and they're administering it at at least twice the normal dosage used to treat Lupus. Yeah, it's gonna kill a lot of people.

 Alpharius wrote:


Quite a few states (TN, FL and GA) are opening up on Friday - letting nail and hair salons, massage parlors and body art studios have at it - as long as they somehow also follow social distancing guidelines? And with Monday seeing GA add in restaurants (in-restaurant dining!) and movie theaters...

WOULD THE USA KINDLY TAKE SOCIAL DISTANCING SERIOUSLY SO NORTH AMERICA CAN OPEN UP SOMETIME IN THE NEXT YEAR?

-signed an irate Canadian

 Laughing Man wrote:
I mean, the drug's an immunosuppressant with severe cardiological and vision related side effects, and they're administering it at at least twice the normal dosage used to treat Lupus. Yeah, it's gonna kill a lot of people.

I wonder how many people literally died from that specific out-of-the-blue line of bs.

 Vulcan wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Data from other nations are best treated skeptically at best

In what way? And more importantly why?

US people think US only as particularly trustworthy. In practice especially for past few years US is rather dubious source if you want actual facts.

Almost.

Americans think only sources THEY AGREE WITH are trustworthy, and there's almost always an element of political bias and partisan identity in it.

To be fair, that's not just an American trait.

With the way our media works in the UK, especially TV news which is required by law to be impartial and non-partisan (unlike our print media) we quite often get the comical situation of both sides of a political divide claiming the BBC, for example, is biased against them at the same time. Mostly, though, the UK approach to TV news seems to work quite well. At least when I was studying journalism the BBC was seen as among the most reliable and balanced news sources. That was almost 20 years ago now so attitudes within the industry may have changed but I haven't detected anything like that from friends within the news media industry.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Data from other nations are best treated skeptically at best

In what way? And more importantly why?

US people think US only as particularly trustworthy. In practice especially for past few years US is rather dubious source if you want actual facts.

This is a longstanding issue that requires some context. Media handling in the USA is very different, with a long tradition of media being a unoffical channel to reveal corruption, scandal and other items that the government wouldn't want revealed. Unlike most other nations, the media in the USA is seen as a political force in its own right on par with major political factions and with a long tradition of the government taking a hands-off approach to its regulation. This is why Americans tend to be skeptical of non-US sources of media, seeing them as too connected to foreign government control or tied to cultures that suppress free media expression. Its a fascinating topic we could spin off a thread for. You really don't get a good idea of just how different the perceptions are until an American sidles up to you and says you can't trust 'them guys in the BBC' or worse, Canadian News. Its also why the idea of facebook suppressing certain news stories is such an new and scandalous development for Americans.

The media as "fourth power" or "innoffical anti corruption channel" is hardly unique.
Also Free media expression, most of the western world has freedom of press. The exemptions beeing Russia, Hungary, and Turkey aswell as belarus.

I am however interested as to why that attitude in regards to foreign media showed up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:


To be fair, that's not just an American trait.

With the way our media works in the UK, especially TV news which is required by law to be impartial and non-partisan (unlike our print media) we quite often get the comical situation of both sides of a political divide claiming the BBC, for example, is biased against them at the same time. Mostly, though, the UK approach to TV news seems to work quite well. At least when I was studying journalism the BBC was seen as among the most reliable and balanced news sources. That was almost 20 years ago now so attitudes within the industry may have changed but I haven't detected anything like that from friends within the news media industry.

I only ever really heard good things about the BBC, and in general i do like their documentaries.
However they are not above pitfalls.... Considering their craddle of populism exhibit some time ago

I don't criticise the BBC as much as some, but it is clear that recently, some of their personalities personal political opinions definitely coloured some of their reporting on certain events.

however, if you lean to the harder ends of the political spectrum, anyone in the centre generally looks like (or can be painted to look like) someone from the opposite end.

They have had some wacky ideas lately, like the absurd proposal of a broadband levy in lieu of the TV licence possibly being scrapped.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52353275

This might prove useful reading from someone who contracted a severe case and survived. She notes that fatigue and muscular pain were more important than a cough.

 Alpharius wrote:


Quite a few states (TN, FL and GA) are opening up on Friday - letting nail and hair salons, massage parlors and body art studios have at it - as long as they somehow also follow social distancing guidelines? And with Monday seeing GA add in restaurants (in-restaurant dining!) and movie theaters...

Those dates do not even match the President's/Federal guidelines on re-opening? The gates have 14 day intervals and restaurants are in gate 2 IIRC?

Locally to me, there were also protesters to "re-open the economy" at the Wyoming state capital. However, Wyoming didn't even have a statewide lockdown order? The lockdowns were all driven by local communities, counties, cities, school districts, and businesses? So, I am unsure what these people were actually protesting? I guess they didn't even know what the heck they were protesting?

Those protests then gave these "Red state" governors just enough political cover to make these rapid changes. Last I heard, GA was close to ICU bed limits all ready, so its not like they are doing great? Strange decision as far as I can tell. I never realized that something like this would be so political.

 Easy E wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:


Quite a few states (TN, FL and GA) are opening up on Friday - letting nail and hair salons, massage parlors and body art studios have at it - as long as they somehow also follow social distancing guidelines? And with Monday seeing GA add in restaurants (in-restaurant dining!) and movie theaters...

Those dates do not even match the President's/Federal guidelines on re-opening? The gates have 14 day intervals and restaurants are in gate 2 IIRC?

Locally to me, there were also protesters to "re-open the economy" at the Wyoming state capital. However, Wyoming didn't even have a statewide lockdown order? The lockdowns were all driven by local communities, counties, cities, school districts, and businesses? So, I am unsure what these people were actually protesting? I guess they didn't even know what the heck they were protesting?

Those protests then gave these "Red state" governors just enough political cover to make these rapid changes. Last I heard, GA was close to ICU bed limits all ready, so its not like they are doing great? Strange decision as far as I can tell. I never realized that something like this would be so political.

That of course is the problem with ruling by guidelines. Florida's main income is sales tax- we don't have an income tax, because we take our money from tourists. Some beaches have already been reopened. https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2020/04/18/coronavirus-florida-beaches-reopen-big-crowds-during-pandemic/5159264002/

There's a huge internal economic pressure for our state to reopen, if at the national level we're no longer required or encouraged to isolate.

Balancing that is our huge population of retirees- we're a state with a very large vulnerable population. It is going to be very, very messy until we get a vaccine.

There's even talk of Disney running a temperature scanning booth at the entrance, and reopening in the early summer.

 Easy E wrote:

Those protests then gave these "Red state" governors just enough political cover to make these rapid changes. Last I heard, GA was close to ICU bed limits all ready, so its not like they are doing great? Strange decision as far as I can tell. I never realized that something like this would be so political.

It would always be political, it just seems that the US is starting early. I think most countries are in the boat that they'll muscle through with what they've got and then the fallout after its all over is when the politicians start infighting over what went wrong/right. I think the USA situation has been created early because of the lack of a united political front not aided by the President himself taking a very different angle. Because of that lack of unity from the top its basically drawn the battle lines and confused people at the bottom end.

 Easy E wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:


Quite a few states (TN, FL and GA) are opening up on Friday - letting nail and hair salons, massage parlors and body art studios have at it - as long as they somehow also follow social distancing guidelines? And with Monday seeing GA add in restaurants (in-restaurant dining!) and movie theaters...

Those dates do not even match the President's/Federal guidelines on re-opening? The gates have 14 day intervals and restaurants are in gate 2 IIRC?

Locally to me, there were also protesters to "re-open the economy" at the Wyoming state capital. However, Wyoming didn't even have a statewide lockdown order? The lockdowns were all driven by local communities, counties, cities, school districts, and businesses? So, I am unsure what these people were actually protesting? I guess they didn't even know what the heck they were protesting?

Those protests then gave these "Red state" governors just enough political cover to make these rapid changes. Last I heard, GA was close to ICU bed limits all ready, so its not like they are doing great? Strange decision as far as I can tell. I never realized that something like this would be so political.

Former FDA head summed it up nicely:

Gyms, nail salons, bowling alleys, hair salons, tattoo parlors — it feels like they collected, you know, a list of the businesses that, you know, were most risky and decided to open those first.

And remember that it appears there's astroturfing going on with these protests. Even if it's pointless in Wyoming, it's still valuable for making news and spreading via social media to push a narrative. And influence our chief executive.

Everything is political now, and our country is going to pay a steep price for it. I feel awful about what's likely to happen in the South. I have family in Georgia and I'm worried for them.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Data from other nations are best treated skeptically at best

In what way? And more importantly why?

US people think US only as particularly trustworthy. In practice especially for past few years US is rather dubious source if you want actual facts.

This is a longstanding issue that requires some context. Media handling in the USA is very different, with a long tradition of media being a unoffical channel to reveal corruption, scandal and other items that the government wouldn't want revealed. Unlike most other nations, the media in the USA is seen as a political force in its own right on par with major political factions and with a long tradition of the government taking a hands-off approach to its regulation. This is why Americans tend to be skeptical of non-US sources of media, seeing them as too connected to foreign government control or tied to cultures that suppress free media expression. Its a fascinating topic we could spin off a thread for. You really don't get a good idea of just how different the perceptions are until an American sidles up to you and says you can't trust 'them guys in the BBC' or worse, Canadian News. Its also why the idea of facebook suppressing certain news stories is such an new and scandalous development for Americans.

Another way to look at it: we have an imperfect system of distributing news.

One of the things most people don't know: there is no standard for reporting how someone dies. Not globally, not regionally, not specific to any healthcare system.

Sure, there's usually a death certificate that lists some cause. But there's no agreement around the role of co-morbidity factors, doctors sometimes report what they are familiar with, some places require autopsies for all deaths while others do not, those autopsies vary wildly in terms of what is actually analyzed, etc.

You'd never figure this out from listening to the news. There are some things that are too big to accurately understand. Death is one of them. Our best measures of morbidity right now are self-reported gauges, not apples-to-apples comparisons.

Most US Media is commercial and gets its revenue from advertising dollars. There's a profit motive involved in every decision about what to report on. This heavily plays into media bias, which is often political. But there's also an efficiency bias, we don't really have investigative reporters they way we once did. People hear numbers and report on them uncritically, knowing that most people just read the headlines and move on. It's really hard to describe how much media is produced in the US every day, publishers generate more information than is contained in the Library of Congress every three days.

So you kind of swim in a sea of information. When something catches your attention, you may do a deep dive, knowing its imperfect. For the big things - death, economy, taxes, etc - you have to look at multiple sources to get the real story. This includes the international press, non-profits, industry reports, etc. And often what leads you to these sources is beacons, things like stock prices, value of currency, political news from overseas that doesn't jive with something you read.

While I wish it were different, it's hard to get at other people's perspectives right now. We just have too many people talking, information has become a barrier to knowledge and insight. It takes a little effort to get past the barriers our commercial media imposes.

 Overread wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52353275

This might prove useful reading from someone who contracted a severe case and survived. She notes that fatigue and muscular pain were more important than a cough.

Wow. When a woman with kids says "this hurts more than childbirth" it's pretty serious.

On the subject of reporting deaths its also important to note that outside of a major epidemic the reporting of deaths doesn't typically need to be that fast a process. Nor does the data having t obe pool and collated at the regional and national levels have any great pressure on it to be done instantly. So I suspect there's a lot of moving parts within the system that are overloaded because they aren't designed to operate at high speed.

 gorgon wrote:


Former FDA head summed it up nicely:

Gyms, nail salons, bowling alleys, hair salons, tattoo parlors — it feels like they collected, you know, a list of the businesses that, you know, were most risky and decided to open those first.

To call a spade a spade, these are the places privileged, white, suburban middle class people are "jonesing" for the most right now. I have heard my corporate peers moan about it a lot lately.

Meanwhile, I am sheltering in place like crazy as my wife and daughter are high-risk.

tneva82 wrote:
https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/kentucky-sees-highest-spike-in-coronavirus-cases-after-protests/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=facebook_app&fbclid=IwAR0OBVw5KVL4rcws5BK5X_KLsaIP8-yxjYgxpUGQGIZdyC3Hln8nOjpi9eI

Facepalm is about right reaction for this. People gathered together, corona cases spiked up. Hardly surprising turn of events.

In biology we call this "natural selection".

 Easy E wrote:

 gorgon wrote:


Former FDA head summed it up nicely:

Gyms, nail salons, bowling alleys, hair salons, tattoo parlors — it feels like they collected, you know, a list of the businesses that, you know, were most risky and decided to open those first.

To call a spade a spade, these are the places privileged, white, suburban middle class people are "jonesing" for the most right now. I have heard my corporate peers moan about it a lot lately.

Meanwhile, I am sheltering in place like crazy as my wife and daughter are high-risk.

Again i ask, are these people sooo unable to entertain themselves that they couldnt last a few weeks without.......bowling?
and NAil Salons? Talk about Peak Privilege,

 Easy E wrote:

 gorgon wrote:


Former FDA head summed it up nicely:

Gyms, nail salons, bowling alleys, hair salons, tattoo parlors — it feels like they collected, you know, a list of the businesses that, you know, were most risky and decided to open those first.

To call a spade a spade, these are the places privileged, white, suburban middle class people are "jonesing" for the most right now. I have heard my corporate peers moan about it a lot lately.

Meanwhile, I am sheltering in place like crazy as my wife and daughter are high-risk.

I can't help but notice that the states that are opening up early are also the states that have the most messed up unemployment systems. So this is what you could call a twofer, get some of those service employees off the rolls.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I desperately need a haircut, but I have no idea how the barber can do it from 6 feet away.

(snip) You'll live for a few more weeks to months without one, and so will everyone else. I promise.

I know. I'm not one of those - I was responding to someone above me who I should have quoted, who mentioned barbershops could open with "proper social distancing". I'm glad I posted it because the responses were delightful though.

I have no desire to open early. My stepson had brain cancer when he was young and is deeply, deeply immunocompromised. No one will see my hair now anyway, I assure you it wasn't a real complaint.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/kentucky-sees-highest-spike-in-coronavirus-cases-after-protests/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=facebook_app&fbclid=IwAR0OBVw5KVL4rcws5BK5X_KLsaIP8-yxjYgxpUGQGIZdyC3Hln8nOjpi9eI

Facepalm is about right reaction for this. People gathered together, corona cases spiked up. Hardly surprising turn of events.

In biology we call this "natural selection".

Too bad they are draining resources and causing deaths to people who were smart. Maybe there should be change in law where if you take part of that kind of acts you forfeit all your rights for medical health care if you get sick from the thing you are warned against. Not just forfeit but becomes illegal to treat you. You take unneccessary risk, bear the responsibility. Then it's risk/reward for you and damage you cause to others with your stupidity is reduced at least a bit(though you still could cause innocents to die because of your stupidity)

I wonder if the people who organized these demonstrations and acts of defiance can end up in prison later for it? If it's proven their acts lead to more corona cases then why not?

 Overread wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52353275

This might prove useful reading from someone who contracted a severe case and survived. She notes that fatigue and muscular pain were more important than a cough.

Wonder if my wife and I had it back in February then. Had the muscle pains and fatigue, but no cough. Got tested gor Flu but came back negative. Took me out of work for a week.

 Matt Swain wrote:
I wonder if the people who organized these demonstrations and acts of defiance can end up in prison later for it? If it's proven their acts lead to more corona cases then why not?

Question there is under which specific law (reckless endangerment?), and whether it can actually be proven a specific infection stemmed from their attendance.

 skyth wrote:

 Overread wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52353275

This might prove useful reading from someone who contracted a severe case and survived. She notes that fatigue and muscular pain were more important than a cough.

Wonder if my wife and I had it back in February then. Had the muscle pains and fatigue, but no cough. Got tested gor Flu but came back negative. Took me out of work for a week.

Possible I guess, but those kinds of symptoms can be caused by anything that would create an interferon response from your body. It's not really the bug itself that causes the fever, aches, chills, etc. It's your body's response.

 skyth wrote:

 Overread wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52353275

This might prove useful reading from someone who contracted a severe case and survived. She notes that fatigue and muscular pain were more important than a cough.

Wonder if my wife and I had it back in February then. Had the muscle pains and fatigue, but no cough. Got tested gor Flu but came back negative. Took me out of work for a week.

My mother had something similar to that as well back around Feb/March time. That said its all way before it was even reported being outside of China.

Thing is the symptoms are not totally unique to it and there's a rafter of other things that can show similar outward symptoms. What does stand out is the infection speed and rate. Whatever it was earlier in the year didn't show the rampant spread that Corona is showing right now. Even where there's very few cases entering a country, if it gets into a major urban area for a week then it spreads at a very fast rate.


Another aspect is lung damage which seems to be the hidden long term impact, though how much of that is pure corona and how much is other things like ventilators and pneumonia is still hard to work out at this stage as we don't really have data on long term recovery patients.

2 domestic housecats in NY have tested positive for Covid.

tneva82 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/kentucky-sees-highest-spike-in-coronavirus-cases-after-protests/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=facebook_app&fbclid=IwAR0OBVw5KVL4rcws5BK5X_KLsaIP8-yxjYgxpUGQGIZdyC3Hln8nOjpi9eI

Facepalm is about right reaction for this. People gathered together, corona cases spiked up. Hardly surprising turn of events.

In biology we call this "natural selection".

Too bad they are draining resources and causing deaths to people who were smart. Maybe there should be change in law where if you take part of that kind of acts you forfeit all your rights for medical health care if you get sick from the thing you are warned against. Not just forfeit but becomes illegal to treat you. You take unneccessary risk, bear the responsibility. Then it's risk/reward for you and damage you cause to others with your stupidity is reduced at least a bit(though you still could cause innocents to die because of your stupidity)

What is your objection to any form of liberty? I'm not justifying the actions of the people in the article, but you the way you talk is incredibly disturbing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I wonder if the people who organized these demonstrations and acts of defiance can end up in prison later for it? If it's proven their acts lead to more corona cases then why not?

Umm, and how would you propose proving that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I wonder if the people who organized these demonstrations and acts of defiance can end up in prison later for it? If it's proven their acts lead to more corona cases then why not?

Question there is under which specific law (reckless endangerment?), and whether it can actually be proven a specific infection stemmed from their attendance.

It can't. Unless you had someone who they knew was infected and was legally required to be quarantined.

For me, it’s the same objection to people refusing to vaccinate their kids, drink drive, set fire to the bottom flat in my building etc.

You want to take risks? Absolutely fine with me. Not a problem. Your body, your choice, your legacy.

But, when your actions come with an impact others around you? That’s where some form of line has to be drawn. The needs of the few do not outweigh the needs of the many.

That’s the very basis of Law, is it not? And when the Law is broken, there are repercussions for the harming party.

 Ouze wrote:
2 domestic housecats in NY have tested positive for Covid.

And this is an animal well known for its social distancing. I had an experience at a relatives house where I was there for two weeks and never once saw their cat. My dogs sleep, cuddle, everything within an arms length from me.