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 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" - Aristotle.

The issue isn't whether or not that the argument is worth considering, the issue is people decide on whether they agree with the argument based on who is advancing it.

The thing is, some people have such horrid, horrible, damaging and in some cases, deadly, beliefs, that they are not worth considering.
For an extreme example, killing homosexuals. Why should i even entertain that idea or put myself in their shoes?
For a less extreme, belief in climate change denial, Its such a proven thing, that people who deny it, should be laughed off the stage of the world.
You dont need to put yourself in someone elses shoes qall thr time, infact I would say most of the time.
.

Except the very second you consider those arguments, you've already entertained them. Nobody's saying you need to spend hours thinking about the nuance, some concepts are so abhorrent that you can readily dismiss them after considering them for next to no time at all, but you can't decide to dismiss them until you've considered them.

Needless to say though, this is a pretty facile example. Once the argument is more sophisticated with shades of grey and positives and negatives on both sides, the statement becomes a lot more relevant.

It does, if someone wants to reopen because they are worried about not only their home and businesses, the possible collapse of infrastructure and the change in education system, yeahh i can entertain that.
IF you want to reopen because you need a hairvut and want your NFL to come back, ill laugh at your face.
The thing is, alot of arguments os of late, tend to fall into the latter rather than the former.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

We have entire generations who seem fundamentally unable to genuinely consider the other side of an argument. To take a breath, put themselves in another's shoes, assume them to be reasonable, and think about how they came to that opinion. It's a real problem, and it's going to keep costing us lives as we bicker over basic public health policies.

The problem is that this is based upon the flawed assumption that the arguments are both worth considering. More commonly than not(as we see in the conspiracy theory thread), that isn't the case.
That also assumes that "putting themselves in another person's shoes" and "assume them to be reasonable" are not things that give credence to bad faith arguments....which, again, more commonly than not it does.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" - Aristotle.

The issue isn't whether or not that the argument is worth considering, the issue is people decide on whether they agree with the argument based on who is advancing it.

The thing is, some people have such horrid, horrible, damaging and in some cases, deadly, beliefs, that they are not worth considering.
For an extreme example, killing homosexuals. Why should i even entertain that idea or put myself in their shoes?
For a less extreme, belief in climate change denial, Its such a proven thing, that people who deny it, should be laughed off the stage of the world.
You dont need to put yourself in someone elses shoes qall thr time, infact I would say most of the time.

Having an open mind and putting yourself into somebody else's shoes doesn't require a person to give any credence whatsoever to the truthfulness or value of somebody's else's ideas or beliefs it's entirely about understanding that whatever the idea or belief is it is being held by a fellow human being. You can disagree with ideas without dismissing somebody's personhood or humanity.

You guys seem to be in an awfully big hurry to write people off for the crime of being wrong. The objective isn't to find validity in a person's argument the purpose is to find the common human condition behind their motivation. One person see's their family owned small business failing because of the pandemic and he/she knows that they don't have the savings or the years of time to build up another one if it fails and don't see a clear way to earn the same level of income without it. That person is motivated by the very human emotions of fear, anxiety and desire to provide for one's self and loved ones. Therefore that person wants to reopen their business as soon as possible. Holding the opposite view is a person who is very concerned with safety during the pandemic, knows that they have loved ones who are very vulnerable to the virus, they are concerned for their family, their society and their way of life. Again, a very reasonable and human motivation from the emotions of fear, anxiety and feeling love and responsibility for others. Their views may be diametrically opposed but they're coming from common ground so they can put themselves into each other's shoes to understand WHY they believe what they do and have EMPATHY and UNDERSTANDING for each other as people while still believing that opposing views are wrong. You don't need to blind yourself to the flaws in arguments or ideas to see that all people share basic commonalities with each other that can be bridges to understanding each other simply from being fellow humans. I want to stand in another person's shoes to better understand their PERSPECTIVE not their argument and every perspective is seen from the common lens of human existence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
It does, if someone wants to reopen because they are worried about not only their home and businesses, the possible collapse of infrastructure and the change in education system, yeahh i can entertain that.
IF you want to reopen because you need a hairvut and want your NFL to come back, ill laugh at your face.
The thing is, alot of arguments os of late, tend to fall into the latter rather than the former.

How many conversations have you had with other people lately wherein they have declared that they want society to reopen because he/she needs a haircut and wants to watch sports? You would need to converse with a very large number of people to make sweeping generalizations about them with any degree of accuracy. Who is framing the argument here? The people actually conversing or is this based on discussing the topic within an imposed framework from media reports, politics, etc that want us to limit ourselves to specific perspectives and value judgements?

I have indeed meet people who wanted to open for selfish reasons.
And it is abhorrent and not worth considering.

Went out for the weekly shop a day early (because May Day Bank Holiday moved and Thursday is likely to be busy with everyone panicking before Friday). There was a distinct uptick in people out and about. More people and more groups of people were around. Towns are still ghosts compared to what they were before, but there is certainly far more moving around going on today.

Supermarket staff even said that they were getting more groups rather than one person going around doing the shopping (I had to disappoint the Morrisons Security Guard I'm sure because after agreeing with him regarding people going in in groups being a bad thing - I went and walked out with a small troll with only non-essential* contents - in fairness that's only because Aldi (one supermarket over) where we do the main shop doesn't sell cakes, wrapping paper and coal)


Government starting to talk about things easing off has already had an impact along with good weather and many people just being clearly fed up with it and wanting to get some normality.





*and one can make the argument that they are essential if I have to survive lockdown with my mother for another year

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I’m a little uneasy with the easing of restrictions. Mostly because there’s a certain crowd who’ll take any easing as ‘ah, that’s it all over then’ and just go straight back to normal. But they have to come eventually.

Possibly, but the effects that will have on the spread will be negligible in my opinion. The vast majority will continue to act as they have been for the last 7 weeks most likely.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
I went and walked out with a small troll with only non-essential* contents





*and one can make the argument that they are essential if I have to survive lockdown with my mother for another year

Careful, you'll have the old bill knocking on your door.

I feel you Overread . I was able to take my family to the beach this week, as where I am they have opened up. We stayed farrrrrrr away from any other people, drew a circle in the sand around our area like suggested, etc etc... but it was glorious . Having little kids cooped up inside has been a challenge, getting them out in the fresh air (but still socially distant) was a huge relief!

queen_annes_revenge wrote:possible easing of lockdowns from monday in the uk. this is excellent news. lockdowners have had their turn, now we can see what happens if measures are relaxed.

I just hope they don't come out with some bs like you can have 5 mandated visitors allowed in your house or some other nonsense like that.

I'd like to see outdoor spaces (gyms, parks, play areas) re open somewhat, restrictions on movement, leaving the home and staying outside the home removed, aswell as the silly police powers. maybe allow nurseries and infant schools to return too. one can hope.

I'm going to guarantee you right now you'll be disappointed.

Future War Cultist wrote:I’m glad you raised that point. As an unashamed capitalist, I despise that crowd. There’s only one word to describe them; parasites. Capital, money, is the grease needed to keep the wheels turning. A consumer based economy only works when there’s plenty of consuming going on. Those who take all that money out of the system to hoard in their big pile, like Smaug with a heart condition, wreck it all. Without that money the whole thing grinds to a halt.

You don't sound like an unashamed capitalist...

Maybe unashamed capitalist isn’t the right term. Capitalist with a conscience?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe unashamed capitalist isn’t the right term. Capitalist with a conscience?

na just capitalist.

the unashamed part i'd leave out. Because i also feel like you'd rather not want 19th century workers conditions now do you.

so they held a protest in Basingstoke against the lockdown

https://www.basingstokegazette.co.uk/news/18425172.one-woman-one-man-one-dog-turn-anti-lockdown-protest-war-memorial-park/




.. fair play to them for maintaining the social distancing.

Conversely however there was a 70+ line of cars as the drive-through KFC re-opened.

https://www.basingstokegazette.co.uk/news/18428838.aerial-photos-shows-70-cars-queuing-kfc-reopens-basingstoke/



Govt. has announced a new target for testing - of 200,000 a day - by the end of May, even though we already cannot do the 100,000 a day currently.

And this is less than the 250,000 Johnson mentioned back in March.

https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/security-behind-nhs-contact-tracing-app nice friendly untechnical summary of the App plans.

but I'd also suggest reading this

Wonder how many of these "remove lockdown" people wishing other people to die for their sake would be willing to die themselves. After all since you are happy for others to die for you you shouldn't have problem dying yourself as well?

Edited by RiTides

I just saw this as I checked my feeds and email for the first time today. What a thing to wake up to.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ohio-lawmaker-refuses-wear-mask-because-he-says-it-dishonors-n1201106

They say that people have a right to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. Honestly I wonder if we can allow people to be this stupid to be in power and still survive as a civilization.

I am really depressed and right now. Plus I may have accidentally concussed myself from the I did.

Your right to be stupid ends when it puts others in danger.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe unashamed capitalist isn’t the right term. Capitalist with a conscience?

na just capitalist.

the unashamed part i'd leave out. Because i also feel like you'd rather not want 19th century workers conditions now do you.

Not at all. But if we aren’t already back to that level we’re definitely sliding towards it though.

Just a public reminder:

It's OK to strongly disagree, but please do not make personal attacks. If you find yourself continuing to butt heads with one other user in particular, consider putting them on ignore if you cannot make your argument in a polite manner.

Also note, capitalism, politics, etc is not the topic of this thread... let's try to stick to coronavirus news, please. Thanks for your help in keeping this open everyone!

 Matt Swain wrote:
I just saw this as I checked my feeds and email for the first time today. What a thing to wake up to.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ohio-lawmaker-refuses-wear-mask-because-he-says-it-dishonors-n1201106

Fair play to MSNBC for, when quoting a lawmaker who refuses to wear essential medical equipment because it dishonored god, chose to use a photo of him wearing an arm brace.

 reds8n wrote:
so they held a protest in Basingstoke against the lockdown

https://www.basingstokegazette.co.uk/news/18425172.one-woman-one-man-one-dog-turn-anti-lockdown-protest-war-memorial-park/




.. fair play to them for maintaining the social distancing.

I was just saying the other day; the protests would be FAR more impactful if the protesters maintained social distancing. It would send a message of 'look, we are outside of lockdown but still able to maintain safe distance, we can be trusted with this responsibility' instead I think the protests only appeal to... I do not have a polite way of putting that. While driving others away.

tneva82 wrote:
Wonder how many of these "remove lockdown" people wishing other people to die for their sake would be willing to die themselves. After all since you are happy for others to die for you you shouldn't have problem dying yourself as well?

Edited by RiTides

You realise the recovery rate for CV19 is about 97% right? furthermore, all evidence shows the peak has passed, consistently pretty much everywhere. and extended lockdown will cause deaths...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nfe wrote:


I'm going to guarantee you right now you'll be disappointed.

Well at least there we agree

Edited by RiTides

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe unashamed capitalist isn’t the right term. Capitalist with a conscience?

na just capitalist.

the unashamed part i'd leave out. Because i also feel like you'd rather not want 19th century workers conditions now do you.

Not at all. But if we aren’t already back to that level we’re definitely sliding towards it though.

Nah, certain industries (Cough gaming) are in a toothing Phase and others have exploited loopholes to avoid taxes and are bragging about that until they get curbed in the Next crisis when the state needs money.

 Alpharius wrote:
In an election year, it really isn't.

Don't get me wrong, I agree it is hard to believe they'd do it, and think they could 'get away with it' and/or hide it, but sadly, it is happening.

I reported this post for being politics bait yesterday.

Would love to write a little rebuttal but am continuing to abide by the no politics policy.

Regarding the elephant in the room (politics)

I know it's hard to divorce this issue from it, and we're also trying not to delete posts in this thread once there's been a lot of discussion on something (and thus lose context of what people were replying to).

But yes... not rebutting and just moving on to the non-political aspects of the pandemic that we can discuss here is very much appreciated!

I'd say "not rebutting and not publicly making a point about how you're not rebutting" would be even more appreciated?

We are so monumentally, horrendously screwed by stupidity here in the US. Seriously, I already had a somewhat low opinion of my fellow human beings, but I am even revising that previous thought.

I am a work tool and appliance delivery driver who has just got back to work after the shelter in place orders have been lifted partially, and everyone slammed back out into the public like nothing has even changed.

It might as well be May of 2019.

In the past three days of deliveries, I have been met by exactly ONE maintenance guy out of at least 30 properties all across my state who wore a mask, and he only remembered it because he saw me wearing mine. None of my shop wears even one piece of PPE, and they think that that masks are "stupid and pointless". Today they were all eating from a single communal pizza for lunch.

I have actually been scoffed and eye-rolled at by customers for wearing a mask, and even given unsolicited advise about how all of this is a hoax and barely anyone is REALLY getting sick. One guy said that yeah, he used to wear a mask, but it was too much of a pain to talk in, so he said in his words "Eff it, I'll either die or I won't". One of the guys has been in our shop every day to buy materials with no mask or anything, and is from an apartment complex maybe 1/8 of a mile away that he openly states has several confirmed resident cases.

Some of the properties I deliver to are even majority-senior housing, and it's like nothing is going on!

My mom and dad live next door to my wife and kids and I, and we had been sheltering in place together. Unfortunately, I have had to go back to quarantining my family from them, because Mom is going through cancer treatments and so is immune-comprimised. I figure I am so exposed at work that there is no reason to take the chance.

Sorry if it sounds like I am venting, but hey at least it's relevant and non-political!

Az - Yes, it would be

Aegis - Sorry to hear that! Here, mask use is hit and miss, but much more common in enclosed spaces like supermarkets...

Here it is a major claim that stores requiring such things is against our personal freedoms, when we have had "no shirt, no shoes, no service" for my entire life............

Yeah, it's not required here, just strongly encouraged. People are staying really far apart in the stores, though, and the cashiers often even have a clear plastic shield in front of them. So, hopefully the transmission risk is fairly low... but obviously it'd be even lower if everyone were wearing a mask.

 Ouze wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I just saw this as I checked my feeds and email for the first time today. What a thing to wake up to.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ohio-lawmaker-refuses-wear-mask-because-he-says-it-dishonors-n1201106

Fair play to MSNBC for, when quoting a lawmaker who refuses to wear essential medical equipment because it dishonored god, chose to use a photo of him wearing an arm brace.

It's a clickbait story trying to gin up outrage over nothing.

The governor of Ohio already downgraded a requirment to a recommendation and he did it a week and a half ago. One state legislator trying to grab media attention by not complying with a voluntary recommendation to wear a mask in public isn't a threat to anyone or anything and doesn't strike me as news worthy at all.

From the article:

Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine, also a Republican, said on April 27 that wearing masks was one of the "essential tools" in fighting the spread of the coronavirus and ordered that shoppers wear them in stores at all times. "To not wear masks would be negligent and a mistake. We have to protect these employees," the governor wrote on Twitter.

But the next day, after receiving criticism, DeWine reversed the order.

"Though it is not a mandate, it is clearly in the best interest for Ohioans to wear a mask in retail settings. This gives added protection to others," DeWine said. "When I go out in public and go into a business, I will wear a mask. And, I have recommended to my family members that they wear masks."

In the article MSNBC also linked to an article that the state legislator wrote to the governor and then in the very next paragraph misattributed direct quotes from the letter to the governor, the person the letter was addressing (the governor did NOT write the letter). That is a basic failure of journalistic integrity and professionalism that makes MSNBC look pathetic. Again, the governor made wearing masks voluntary over a week ago, a single state legislaturor's noncompliance with it isn't newsworthy.

In the article it references that Ohio already planned to reopen in May.

In late April, DeWine ordered a partial reopening for Ohio that went into effect on May 1. On May 4, restrictions were lifted on construction, distribution, manufacturing and offices. And by May 12, consumer, retail and service businesses will be allowed to reopen.

Yet there is no mention in the article about any evidence that reopening is a bad idea, of any negative consequences appearing yet or when negative consequences might appear or what they'd be or how to evaluate if the reopening is a success or failure, etc. Nope, it's just an article giving an obscure state legislator who likes to post nutty conspiracy theories on Facebook and spin important issues into extremist and absolutist arguments some airtime and notoriety.

Hey, I was only giving them props for the photo selection.

 Ouze wrote:
Hey, I was only giving them props for the photo selection.

True, I apologize if that came off like I was taking a shot at you, that wasn't my intent. It just bothers me when peopel get worked up over articles like that. I don't blame people for not taking precautions agains the virus seriously when so much of the media coverage isn't serious either. Even important national issues like our response to the pandemic gets turned into mindless fodder for clickbait outrage junk "journalism" instead trying to keep people informed with useful and valuable information.