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Yeah, most of the BLM protestors seem to be wearing masks. At least the ones in AU. It's not foolproof but it certainly helps. The Trump rallies, and that leader from (I can't remember if it was Greece or Brazil) who has for most of the pandemic been calling it fake.

I guess it all depends on the group's mentality?

The worst part is how little information there is about how soon after initial exposure someone becomes contagious.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The worst part is how little information there is about how soon after initial exposure someone becomes contagious.

It's probably hard to work out or come up with any kind of meaningful numbers since its going to vary a lot based on how much exposure they had and their own immune system and health. Some people might go down fast others might take longer. Plus there's the risk that if people get the idea that even if they might be infected they could be "safe" for a period of time then you can bet they will use all of that time. Even if its only a rough average. So if governments published "Up to 3 days after exposure you're "safe" then many of those who might know they were exposed within the 3 day window might not self isolate until the 3 days are up. So its easier to just blanket say "if you're exposed you're a risk - contact-trace everyone you came into contact with and go into isolation.

Plus don't forget you might not be infectious, but you could be carrying the disease on your person. Eg if you contract it by touch (fingers then going in the mouth at some stage), then you could potentially pass it on within the first day quite easily by shaking someone's hand. You might still be non-infectious but your hand is.

Had a moment today. The neighbor stopped by to drop off a package that Fedex dumped on his porch (because an arrow pointing up the hill next to our number and another pointing to the right next his number is apparently ambiguous), and talked about his venture in town.

He and his son in law went to one of the bars downtown (because the ladies were talking in the house, and its apparently the 19th century again), and were irritated to get no service outside (where there were also no customers). So they went in to find a packed bar, no distance, no masks, and... apparently stuck around to order a beer anyway and then go outside.

This rather than the saner approach of noping back out, picking up a six pack at the store, and drinking at home. But this was mid-afternoon in the middle of the week, and the bar was packed with unsafe idiots. And then my neighbor potentially brought the passing idiocy to my doorstep. Needless to say the box was emptied, taken away and cleaning then ensued.

 Ouze wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
It's odd that trump's events are leading to surges in covid while the massive open air blm protests seem not to be. This really should be looked into. I have no easy explanation.

I think the key words there are "open air", for one. There are a lot of protests, but they are much smaller - the biggest protest has a few hundred people at best. They're all outside, and generally from the photos I have seen, they're wearing masks - perhaps not 100% but mask usage is predominant.

The other event was indoors, and even at a unprecedented 6000 attendees far larger than any protest, virtually no one was wearing a mask, and the social distancing stickers were removed to cram people together to make the crowd look bigger.

So, there are obvious, substantial differences.

Funny you say that, because the "ReOpen <Insert State Here>" protests have been outside too...and also have come with spikes....gee, I wonder what the correlation is.

 Overread wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The other day I saw Richard Quest (who had coronavirus) on CNN asking an expert if the lingering symptoms he’s suffering from are permanent. She said that atm they just couldn’t say, and you could see the crushing disappointment in his eyes. I actually felt for him I really did.

Something like long term lung damage where you can't get enough breath and might be out of breath even just doing basic things like walking to the end of the road are life changing conditions. They not only impact your health, they specifically prevent you taking part in many normal activities. Stopping you from doing things you once loved and also preventing you doing new things that you wanted to do. Those are the kind of things that can take a very long time to come to terms with and you might never. They can also lead to other health problems very quickly like weight issues.

One can hope to recover or that new medical advances might aid recovery, right now its very hard to say how people will recover in the medium to long term and its got to be crushing to think that one little sickness, one thing that you got for a few days is going to suddenly lead to sucha dramatic negative change in your life.

Here in the US our society is already well practiced at gaking on the disabled, so I don't see a problem.

I really wish that one of the factions in the US didn't gin up a cultural antipathy towards wearing masks as a wedge issue. They're not the only ones that will pay for that "choice".

This really is the most stupid and vicious timeline and I wish I could just fast forward a little because it has got to go up from here.

Voss wrote:
Had a moment today. The neighbor stopped by to drop off a package that Fedex dumped on his porch (because an arrow pointing up the hill next to our number and another pointing to the right next his number is apparently ambiguous), and talked about his venture in town.

He and his son in law went to one of the bars downtown (because the ladies were talking in the house, and its apparently the 19th century again), and were irritated to get no service outside (where there were also no customers). So they went in to find a packed bar, no distance, no masks, and... apparently stuck around to order a beer anyway and then go outside.

This rather than the saner approach of noping back out, picking up a six pack at the store, and drinking at home. But this was mid-afternoon in the middle of the week, and the bar was packed with unsafe idiots. And then my neighbor potentially brought the passing idiocy to my doorstep. Needless to say the box was emptied, taken away and cleaning then ensued.

Jesus.

I certainly hope you won’t have anything else to do with those arseholes.

I completely sympathise too btw. I’m at the end of my tether myself and I’ve had a few ‘near misses’. My pressure’s boiling and it’s going to end badly at this rate.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The other day I saw Richard Quest (who had coronavirus) on CNN asking an expert if the lingering symptoms he’s suffering from are permanent. She said that atm they just couldn’t say, and you could see the crushing disappointment in his eyes. I actually felt for him I really did.

Something like long term lung damage where you can't get enough breath and might be out of breath even just doing basic things like walking to the end of the road are life changing conditions. They not only impact your health, they specifically prevent you taking part in many normal activities. Stopping you from doing things you once loved and also preventing you doing new things that you wanted to do. Those are the kind of things that can take a very long time to come to terms with and you might never. They can also lead to other health problems very quickly like weight issues.

One can hope to recover or that new medical advances might aid recovery, right now its very hard to say how people will recover in the medium to long term and its got to be crushing to think that one little sickness, one thing that you got for a few days is going to suddenly lead to sucha dramatic negative change in your life.

Here in the US our society is already well practiced at gaking on the disabled, so I don't see a problem.

Well, they could actually play up the long term problems from Covid far more than they are. The early stories didn't have the research yet, but the public consumption version got turned into 'only old people have to worry about dying.' Now findings are that younger folks who recover often also have to deal with diminished capacity in the lungs and sometimes brain. Hammering that fear might actually help get people back to basic sensible precautions. 'Cuz at the moment an absurd number of people have been persuaded that its already over and everything is back to normal (and that it wasn't that bad to begin with).

Actual medical opinions are still looking at a year plus to even begin large scale manufacturing and distribution... if the current vaccine candidates are even effective.

 Ouze wrote:
I really wish that one of the factions in the US didn't gin up a cultural antipathy towards wearing masks as a wedge issue. They're not the only ones that will pay for that "choice".

This really is the most stupid and vicious timeline and I wish I could just fast forward a little because it has got to go up from here.

Sadly it does not. It'd be fantastic if it did get better, but we're not even close to bottom yet. There's just a lot of modern illusions obscuring the view.

 Ouze wrote:
I really wish that one of the factions in the US didn't gin up a cultural antipathy towards wearing masks as a wedge issue. They're not the only ones that will pay for that "choice".

This really is the most stupid and vicious timeline and I wish I could just fast forward a littlebecause it has got to go up from here.

I appreciate how you’re trying to help, but little white lies only work when they’re little. Thanks, anyway.

So america made another record with 65k cases. And trump claims it's only because testing but as higher % of tests are positive and raising indicates rathbr virus spreading. And us isn't even spectacularly active tester

 Ouze wrote:
because it has got to go up from here.

Others have beat me too it, but I honestly think you typed this out with the desperate hope for it to be true, trying to convince yourself it is true, maybe even believing on some level that it will indeed go up from here.

But deep down inside you know that humanity is reaching new heights of achievement every day, and that must be counterbalanced with new depths of stupidity.

Decided to try the bus yesterday. First time since February. Regret it tbh. Nobody bothered with masks. One idiot even tried to sit beside me before he thought better of it.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Decided to try the bus yesterday. First time since February. Regret it tbh. Nobody bothered with masks. One idiot even tried to sit beside me before he thought better of it.

no official mask duty in public transport?
Even we have that now...

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Decided to try the bus yesterday. First time since February. Regret it tbh. Nobody bothered with masks. One idiot even tried to sit beside me before he thought better of it.

no official mask duty in public transport?
Even we have that now...

Well this is the thing, it was official policy if the stickers are anything to go by. It just wasn’t being enforced.

See I’m worried that gak like that will bring it right back. And I’m sticking with the car from now on.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
If we're taking this too far, by all means let a mod step in, but in the meantime, I find I actually agree with QAR in this.
Universities should not be in the business of self-censorship to avoid insulting anyone, their whole point is to increase humanity's knowledge base and foster discussion and independent, critical thought by letting both sides have their say.

That is absolutely and categorically untrue. Universities are not obliged to spend energy debunking Flat Earthers, for instance. There is no inherent value in discourse, it is a means to an end (as you noted yourself, greater understanding); if someone is acting in a manner contrary to the purpose of the discourse existing in the first place, the University is morally obliged to tell that person to get bent. I'm not saying this to take a stance pro or anti The Great Gatsby, just as an abstract argument about the nature of Universities.

Free speech is, as was humorously alluded to earlier on the page, not an end in and of itself. Every society on Earth limits speech to some extent, through legislation on fraud, perjury, and slander. This fetishization of free speech as some sacrosanct God-given right is ridiculous. It's perfectly possible to argue against limitations on free speech without assuming that it is an absolute right (which it blatantly isn't).

In what way does any of that contradict what I said? My main point was that universities should not celf-censor because that undercuts the very point of a university. I said nothing about free speech as a right, God-given or otherwise.
In fact you yourself said the same thing I did (bolded above). Censorship, however it's inflicted, is contrary to (honest) discourse. The rest of your post is basically an expansion on and a few caveats to my statement. So, I guess we basically agree?

The pedant in me wants to point out though that everyone is actually free to make untrue claims. Faith healers, astrology, and homeopathy, for example, exist. That making untrue claims sometimes have (legal) consequences (like fraud or perjury, or for non-legal results being known as an untrustworthy liar) doesn't mean one cannot do them.

That's enough derailing of the thread though. If you want to discuss further, we should take it to PM or start a separate thread, assuming this doesn't violate the "no politics or religion" rule.

I note that public transit is one of the two main problems with this disease worldwide. My friends who tell me stuff bout this say that public transit related infection has (on a world basis) accounted for the majority of all cases, and probably the vast majority of cases in NYC (which is still a significant portion of the world's entire caseload of this disease, if china isn't lying about wider in country spread).

Point is, stay off that bus till someone removes the windows. If you can, write in and tell the bus people they must do so if they ever want riders back to pour money on their death wagon industry.

While taxicabs and uber are likely not a great option (casue you know, 20 bucks a day adds up fast! that's 600 a month if you worked or went shopping 1 time a day every day), you can buy a moped for city tranist very cheaply (something like 500 (correction, I see one online for 600 but 500 may be precoronavirus pricing) to acquire and cheaper than a bus to run on a daily basis). I ain't saying its a great solution, but it is an economically viable one, and a good backpack full of groceries, + saddle bags = shopping viable, too.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
It's odd that trump's events are leading to surges in covid while the massive open air blm protests seem not to be. This really should be looked into. I have no easy explanation.

I think the key words there are "open air", for one. There are a lot of protests, but they are much smaller - the biggest protest has a few hundred people at best. They're all outside, and generally from the photos I have seen, they're wearing masks - perhaps not 100% but mask usage is predominant.

The other event was indoors, and even at a unprecedented 6000 attendees far larger than any protest, virtually no one was wearing a mask, and the social distancing stickers were removed to cram people together to make the crowd look bigger.

So, there are obvious, substantial differences.

Funny you say that, because the "ReOpen <Insert State Here>" protests have been outside too...and also have come with spikes....gee, I wonder what the correlation is.

The CV spikes are happening, primarily, in trump states plus california. If BLM protests were going to lead to spikes, we would have notice major CV spikes in all major metros by now, which we have not.

Masks and social distancing have proven actually fairly effective in limiting the spread of the virus. Both of which BLM protests do practice (when they're not being herded together in a mass by a collection of armed thugs shooting teargas and rubber bullets at them)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bran Dawri wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
If we're taking this too far, by all means let a mod step in, but in the meantime, I find I actually agree with QAR in this.
Universities should not be in the business of self-censorship to avoid insulting anyone, their whole point is to increase humanity's knowledge base and foster discussion and independent, critical thought by letting both sides have their say.

That is absolutely and categorically untrue. Universities are not obliged to spend energy debunking Flat Earthers, for instance. There is no inherent value in discourse, it is a means to an end (as you noted yourself, greater understanding); if someone is acting in a manner contrary to the purpose of the discourse existing in the first place, the University is morally obliged to tell that person to get bent. I'm not saying this to take a stance pro or anti The Great Gatsby, just as an abstract argument about the nature of Universities.

Free speech is, as was humorously alluded to earlier on the page, not an end in and of itself. Every society on Earth limits speech to some extent, through legislation on fraud, perjury, and slander. This fetishization of free speech as some sacrosanct God-given right is ridiculous. It's perfectly possible to argue against limitations on free speech without assuming that it is an absolute right (which it blatantly isn't).

In what way does any of that contradict what I said? My main point was that universities should not celf-censor because that undercuts the very point of a university. I said nothing about free speech as a right, God-given or otherwise.
In fact you yourself said the same thing I did (bolded above). Censorship, however it's inflicted, is contrary to (honest) discourse. The rest of your post is basically an expansion on and a few caveats to my statement. So, I guess we basically agree?

The pedant in me wants to point out though that everyone is actually free to make untrue claims. Faith healers, astrology, and homeopathy, for example, exist. That making untrue claims sometimes have (legal) consequences (like fraud or perjury, or for non-legal results being known as an untrustworthy liar) doesn't mean one cannot do them.

That's enough derailing of the thread though. If you want to discuss further, we should take it to PM or start a separate thread, assuming this doesn't violate the "no politics or religion" rule.

How do you avoid talking politics in regards to CV when its severity, very existence, and the responses to it are considered political questions? That's the issue with no politics, bad actors can get any discussions banned by politicizing it. Like, you know, giving gay people civil rights, that trans people exist and are valid, that the world is getting hotter and this is bad for our civilization are all political now, despite being self evidently moral or actually scientifically proven.

It does lend itself well to working the refs, but in this case I think the refs have been cognizant of that strategy and have allowed reasonable latitude, so long as it's not egregious flamebait, or politics wholly divorced of coronavirus.

This has been a really well moderated thread despite it being pretty challenging to do so for the reasons you described.

UK government may be considering making face masks mandatory in shops.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53365062
Gotta say I'm surprised at this as I thought No10 would not want to be seen as following Holyrood's lead on mask wearing. While I think its a generally good idea, if it does come into force south of the wall, retail is going to have a fun time of it. We are already getting daily abuse and tantrums from people after asking them to respect the distancing measures. Cant come in unless your wearing a mask? That will not go down well

stratigo: Easy, we stick our fingers in our ears and go "nahnahnahnahnahnah" until it's our player-turn again. We're privileged that way.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
UK government may be considering making face masks mandatory in shops.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53365062
Gotta say I'm surprised at this as I thought No10 would not want to be seen as following Holyrood's lead on mask wearing. While I think its a generally good idea, if it does come into force south of the wall, retail is going to have a fun time of it. We are already getting daily abuse and tantrums from people after asking them to respect the distancing measures. Cant come in unless your wearing a mask? That will not go down well

All about BogJob and his own personal Jaffar being able to blame everyone else.

Right. That was more than a bit political. If you need me, I‘ll be self-isolating. And not at Barnard Castle or Cyprus.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
I note that public transit is one of the two main problems with this disease worldwide. My friends who tell me stuff bout this say that public transit related infection has (on a world basis) accounted for the majority of all cases, and probably the vast majority of cases in NYC (which is still a significant portion of the world's entire caseload of this disease, if china isn't lying about wider in country spread).

fwiw, Articles I've read refined this. The spread of a city is more important than population density. Also, frequency of groups (eg. crowded housing, meat packing plants) is more important than population density.

"When other factors such as race and education were taken into account, the authors found that county density was not significantly associated with county infection rate.The authors also found that denser counties, as compared to more sprawling ones, tended to have lower death rates—possibly because they enjoyed a higher level of development including better health care systems. On the other hand, the authors found that higher coronavirus infection and COVID-19 mortality rates in counties are more related to the larger context of metropolitan size in which counties are located. Large metropolitan areas with a higher number of counties tightly linked together through economic, social, and commuting relationships are the most vulnerable to the pandemic outbreaks. "
https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2020/urban-density-not-linked-to-higher-coronavirus-infection-rates-and-is-linked-to-lower-covid-19-death-rates.html

"New York City Health Department data indicate that Manhattan, the borough with the highest population density, was not the hardest hit. Deaths are concentrated in the less dense, more diverse other boroughs. Citywide, black and Latino residents are experiencing mortality rates that are twice those of white city dwellers."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-cities-density.html

"The hardest-hit neighborhoods had three times the rate of overcrowded homes and twice the rate of poverty as the neighborhoods that have largely escaped the virus, according to the analysis.
https://calmatters.org/projects/overcrowded-housing-california-coronavirus-essential-worker/

"Rural areas tend to have older populations than the national average, with more chronic health conditions that raise the risk of developing more severe cases of COVID-19. They have fewer health care providers and more uninsured residents, meaning residents often wait longer before seeking medical help. They also tend to be home to large group facilities, such as prisons, meatpacking plants and nursing homes, where the virus can quickly spread to residents and employees can carry it back into the community."
https://theconversation.com/rural-america-is-more-vulnerable-to-covid-19-than-cities-are-and-its-starting-to-show-140532

"Remote regions with crowded households have turned deadlier than some city blocks"
WSJ subscription required: https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-households-spread-coronavirus-families-navajo-california-second-wave-11591553896


Unfortunately, articles and data for the virus report typically focus on number of deaths, rather than number of *locations* (eg. households, groups) infected. This results in our overlooking the danger of asymptomatic carriers (eg. "young and healthy") who could infect others in a "group" (household, office place, church, etc. with vulnerable groups).

GoatboyBeta wrote:
UK government may be considering making face masks mandatory in shops.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53365062
Gotta say I'm surprised at this as I thought No10 would not want to be seen as following Holyrood's lead on mask wearing. While I think its a generally good idea, if it does come into force south of the wall, retail is going to have a fun time of it. We are already getting daily abuse and tantrums from people after asking them to respect the distancing measures. Cant come in unless your wearing a mask? That will not go down well

Good to know it's not just Americans that go ballistic when they don't get their way in a store. Or maybe it's not so good?

Wonder how many businesses are already telling customers to wear masks, mandate or not.



******

Also, yet another "small study". This one says, "A small study on 11 intensive care COVID-19 patients suggests that the coronavirus may trigger an antibody reaction that attacks the brains of its victims. A team of researchers examined the patients, who were experiencing unexplained neurologic symptoms, in two hospitals in Germany. The researchers wanted to find out if COVID-19 had a role in causing these symptoms which included delirium, epileptic seizures, and uncontrollable muscle contractions.According to Newsweek Health, when the team examined the blood and cerebrospinal fluid of the patients, they didn’t find evidence of the coronavirus, but they did find autoantibodies in the fluid. An autoantibody is a type of protein that attacks an individual’s own proteins and could be triggered by a viral illness."

No need to go to Florida for those brain-eating amoeba, then.

****

As for masks...



"Countries advising its people to wear face masks to stop the spread of coronavirus have had lower rates of infection, data shows.While other measures will affect results such as testing and social distancing, it is clear that many Asian countries where face masks have been widely worn are suffering fewer cases of Covid-19.Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan and South Korea have all reported far fewer infections than countries in the West, despite being far closer to the source of the pandemic in China."

Note that Asian countries took other actions against the virus, such as lockdowns in January, rather than March. Asian countries are taking the epidemic seriously, since they have had a recent history of exposure to them (eg. SARS, MERS). For USA and other Western citizens. CoVid is probably their first experience with an epidemic, the last major one with polio in 1955. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

https://internewscast.com/countries-where-public-face-mask-wearing-is-advised-have-lower-rates-of-coronavirus-infections/

 ZergSmasher wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
UK government may be considering making face masks mandatory in shops.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53365062
Gotta say I'm surprised at this as I thought No10 would not want to be seen as following Holyrood's lead on mask wearing. While I think its a generally good idea, if it does come into force south of the wall, retail is going to have a fun time of it. We are already getting daily abuse and tantrums from people after asking them to respect the distancing measures. Cant come in unless your wearing a mask? That will not go down well

Good to know it's not just Americans that go ballistic when they don't get their way in a store. Or maybe it's not so good?

my sister works in the local big supermarket and has recounted many a tale of stupid selfishness during The Event mostly from older folk, and her manager had written complaint about her for asking someone to leave after going spare and calling a young checkout girl the c-word and reducing her to tears, said complaint was duly rejected as his complaint bore no resemblance to the cctv

I honestly don't get how a mask/face covering is any different from other required safety equipment most of us use all the time. Are seat belts, crash helmets, life jackets, hard hats, high vis vests, safety goggles and boots ect all an infringement on our freedoms as well?

GoatboyBeta wrote:
I honestly don't get how a mask/face covering is any different from other required safety equipment most of us use all the time. Are seat belts, crash helmets, life jackets, hard hats, high vis vests, safety goggles and boots ect all an infringement on our freedoms as well?

No, until partisan politics gets involved. That is really the reason a significant amount of people have a problem with them. Yeah, some still would otherwise but mainly it is a party identity thing. At least here in the US.

They’re just anti government contrarian prats. I would happily bet money that if for some reason the situation was completely reversed and wearing masks was publicly banned, those exact same spankers who’ve been refusing to wear them so far would be down city hall demanding the right to wear them and making asses out of themselves in the bargain.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
I honestly don't get how a mask/face covering is any different from other required safety equipment most of us use all the time. Are seat belts, crash helmets, life jackets, hard hats, high vis vests, safety goggles and boots ect all an infringement on our freedoms as well?

In my state, one of the few that allows this, a helmet is not required on a motorcycle. Bikers will foam at the mouth here if you suggest they wear one so they survive a crash. Most of them go on about freedom and waking up in America, but when you quiz them on specifics of the Constitution, they generally don't know what it actually says.

This is what we are dealing with I over. People who think their "freedom" is more important than other people's health. It disgusts me deeply.