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I was referring to parents decisions and thought processes regarding their children... Obviously the political ineptitude has helped get us into this mess, but we're just looking for solutions for our kids.

That’s completely understandable. And the issue with schools is just like with businesses. It’s not really life versus death; it’s life versus life. Just as businesses were caught between trying to fight the virus and not go under, schools are caught between fighting and teaching. They need to find that middle ground which is where the difficult decisions have to be made.

My main issue is with that fat fething wotsit (Cheeto to you guys) potentially threatening the safety of kids and staff in an effort to pretend that the virus is dealt with just to increase his election chances, the contemptible piece of gak.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
That’s completely understandable. And the issue with schools is just like with businesses. It’s not really life versus death; it’s life versus life. Just as businesses were caught between trying to fight the virus and not go under, schools are caught between fighting and teaching. They need to find that middle ground which is where the difficult decisions have to be made.

My main issue is with that fat fething wotsit (Cheeto to you guys) potentially threatening the safety of kids and staff in an effort to pretend that the virus is dealt with just to increase his election chances, the contemptible piece of gak.

people would do well, if they learnt that there is a difference between : "You donkey-cave", (informal unpolite form,) and You donkey-cave (formal polite form)

 RiTides wrote:


I'd love to continue the discussion of other country's school models that have worked well and that have failed, and what we can learn and implement... probably not going to happen in this thread to be honest, but feel free to PM me anybody if you'd like to chat about it further!

Man, if it's worth anything at all, I'll dip my toe in this hellthread, just once more...

So - despite my tender years, I've taught in 3 countries, S. Korea, Japan, and the U.K. - I've taught everything from kindergarten all the way up to post-grad, in classes from 40 kids, to just one sweet old Korean lady, some of the brightest teens I've ever met, and also budding tearaways, not yet out of their tweens, but already getting into drugs and violent crime.
So like, not the most experienced, but I like to think that I know what the ropes at least look like, if nothing else.

Spent this whole thing - from January, when the Virus arrived here - all the way to present, in Japan, and working in a school. The only time I did any working from home, was in april (ish?), and it was 3 days a week, tops. The students came back a few months ago, and since then it has been absolutely ALL HANDS ON DECK. I've never had a workload as full on as this. To make up for the lost time, the kids are losing 4 weeks of their summer vacation. The number of colleagues I have who are barely in their 30s, yet have graying hairs coming through because of the stress would shock you. The government here has decided it has fallen to the teachers, and the kids to pick up the slack.
Now, in some ways, we're very fortunate. This is a really critical time, and Japanese institutions, such as universities, allow for very little flexibility. But, we can give our students a fighting chance, because they're back. Because since the getgo, Japan has been very cautious. As a government worker, I have to wear a mask at all times at work. If I don't bring one, I have to buy one, from the school, from government supplies intended for the students I am meant to be educating.
The rest of the country mostly reacted really fast, too. Logging where you've been, de-marked areas in shops, cellophane protection zones for workers. Things are still far from perfect. Of our mostly stable rate of 300 new infections per day, Tokyo leads with about 200 of these. The rest are spread through hotspots around the country.

Thanks to these efforts, largely, we've dodged the bullet. Life here is, while extremely altered, more normal than in the west.
That's not to say that Japan was perfect. There have been cock-ups, and missed opportunities. There has been time-wasting and inaction. Yet, mercifully, it never reached the extremes and polarity of the Anglophone world. It really does make me scratch my head, seeing some of the posts in this thread.

But there are two real points I want to press home, if you'll all permit me.
The first is this - my experience of teaching in the UK, of talking to people who've taught in the US, Canada, and even Japan? There is a growing, chronic shortage of teachers. Qualifying to become a teacher in the UK is arduous, expensive, and at the end of it, you're often flung into a placement in a school that staff don't want to stay in - predominantly for behavioural reasons. Few people in the UK make it out of their first few years after qualifying. This isn't anecdotal, it's statistical. A mix of constant fund-cutting and the growing pressures to perfectly adhere to the criteria of exam boards which are prone to adjusting the grade boundries after results are in because too many top grades looks bad or some nonsense. Staff are constantly asked to take on additional roles, or bullied into teaching subjects they never signed up for, then to have their original subject specialism pulled out from under their feet. I know several English teachers who have spent years only teaching psychology for this very reason.
Luckily, in the UK, the teaching labor union is still a political force to be reckoned with. The unions will act pretty decisively over even small staffroom disputes if need be, and it's a real godsend.
Here in Japan, there isn't that same unionized system.
Talking to older colleagues, it's genuinely heartbreaking to see old codgers getting misty eyed about how they used to only come in once a week during the summer holidays, to moniter the school clubs. Now, during designated vacation time they still have to come in. Not for clubs, but to teach actual classes. During their vacations. We've got a 4 day weekend coming up, as part of Japan's national holidays. Nearly all of my colleagues, due to the virus, are coming in, to teach the kids preparing for uni. These are teachers who start work well before 8am, and usually leave work after 7pm on an ordinary day.

At my school, there are about 1000 students. There are nearly 100 members of staff. Each student goes home to at least one parent, usually a grandparent, and very very often, a sibling, who, due to the school testing system, will go to a different school, usually also with around 1000 students.
I'd like to say social distancing happens, but it just isn't practical. Certainly, for my subject, I have to listen carefully to kids, get up close to check their worksheets. Other members of staff are doing this, more hands on, for longer hours, with more kids. Japanese teenagers being Japanese teenagers... like, when they see their mates in the corridor? Like, the just bounce over and hug and say hi. Even kids this old don't stop being kids. We can't police them all.
For now, the virus in Japan is under control. However, I'm sure you can all imagine that all it takes is a kid from the next town over to catch it and...

...we're all fethed. In like, 2 weeks.
Please, I urge you. Consider the concerns of the people teaching your kids. Teachers in the UK and the US have a hard time normally. Digital learning isn't a good solution for anyone, but it's the best that can be achieved now. If your teachers are worried - as I am - for their safety, and the safety of the kids they teach, please, please listen.
We're not in this job for no reason. I'd say confidently that even the meanest, most crabby stuck-in-their-ways, kids-these-days.... type teachers are really only in this job because educating kids is important to them. When I was working from home, I was pulling my hair out. It's so frustrating to do classes like that, knowing kids aren't paying attention, trying your best and having utterly no clue as to how much is working.
If they're advocating keeping the kids out of school, it's for a good reason. Nothing would break my heart more than a kid in one of my classes getting this gak. I think I couldn't live with myself if I thought they got it from me.
Your local teachers would LOVE to have the funding, the resources, the time, the manpower, to be able to do reduced-size classes, outdoor classes, crazy extensive interactive virtual classes, whatever. But I don't think I've been to a single school where this would be even slightly practical.
I know this is a frustrating time, and I know how worrying about the future, especially if you feel a bit powerless, can really get under your skin. It's great that, as a dad, you have so much concern for your kids. It really is. I've dealt with emotionally absent bougie parents who spoil their kids rotten, but barely talk to them, and then on the flip junkie parents who lurch between drug-dealing boyfriends, with their kids as excess baggage on their heroin-chasing adventures. Seeing people this worried, though of course, is upsetting, it's also re-affirming to see that concern, to see that love. That's the stuff good dads are made of.

Feeling that your kids are missing out of key parts of their early developmental learning must be tough. But I think first of all, after all this is over, there'll be no shortage of efforts to remedy this gap. It's a concern prevalent all over the world right now, and, perhaps somewhat fortunately, this period is exposing the most egregious failings of contemporary society, meaning that with luck, we'll be able to bounce back much stronger.
I know it isn't easy, but I think you probably already are trying to help your kids in this time. Where you can, maybe try to work in some 'educational' stuff of your own devising with little RiTides Jr. and RiTidesette. It could be as simple as getting them to read a bit more (did ya know there have been a bunch of studies in Japan on the positive education impact of reading silly comic books? 'cause that's a big thing!), or give them a bit of money on the shopping list to budget. Get them to make and illustrate their own storybooks. If you're worried about socialization (bear with me on this one, I feel like all parents with young kids are groaning at the thought of this) have them and their pals play some computer game with their pals online, like minecraft. Set them maybe some kind of weekly challenge, and make it focused on co-operation. I know it isn't exactly long division, but honestly this is probably the best time to try to embrace wishy-washy Scandinavian development-driven, guided independent learning. Take the kids out for a walk in the woods, and see if you can find any signs of animals, watch some nature or history documentaries together, and see if they start pinging off questions about what they're seeing. (IDK if this is any help, it's been a long week and I am drinking)

My second point is much less meandering.
I'm reasonably happy to be working through all this because...
...we have this, broadly, outside of the Tokyo Metropolitan area, under control. I feel this is a simple thing, but, if you do not have the virus under control now? You won't be able to control it in a school. You won't be able to control who catches it, who spreads it, who dies from it. Education is super important, and it's really critical that we do what we can now. But if you cannot control how the virus in the rest of society, don't put your kids back in a classroom, unless truly RADICAL changes have been made.

Edit: Ninja'ed by posermcbogus! Thanks for sharing your experience as a teacher in Japan (and also really appreciate the "good dads" comment ).

As a former teacher, I can relate to some things... but not to what it would be like to balance that job right now . It is awesome to hear how it was handled there in Japan, and unfortunate that we're not in as good of a spot here

You're right about parents groaning at some of those suggestions, though! There is zero percent chance I'm going to have my kids play Minecraft to learn to socialize at a young age... that's what college is for

----------

FWC, thanks for the nice post. I do agree the issues are similar, but obviously for parents the question of "Will my child miss a full year and a half of school at a critical development age?" is way more important than the possibility of losing my job or my business. To me, at least! So I got a little wound up

I do get that people are rightfully upset at the government, but for myself and many others I'd like to turn the page: Given that, what's the best thing I can figure out for my child right now?

I still do think a hybrid solution might be the best approach... but it looks like we're running out of time to implement anything like that with most schools starting in just a month's time...

Cant development and social skills be done with parents in a more safer enviroments, with parents setting up playdates and such with people they trust/know?
And cants parents set up supplemental work that helps goes with what they are teaching?
Im no parent, so i am going to get alot of gak for this.
But the question shouldnt be "What is best for my child" and more "What is best for my child and for the children they will be interacting with and society at large"

You've mentioned playdates a number of times, and yeah I do think it's kinda clear you're not a parent on that front

I'm not really sure why that seems like a good solution to you... it just shifts the problem, right? So families interact outside of school, and spread the virus anyway. That kind of behavior is actually the very first thing that all families I know Stopped doing when the pandemic hit.

And I see your point about what is best for society, but as a parent that too is a balancing act. We're all trying to be responsible while also, you know, raising small humans that don't really get what's going on

 RiTides wrote:
You've mentioned playdates a number of times, and yeah I do think it's kinda clear you're not a parent on that front

I'm not really sure why that seems like a good solution to you... it just shifts the problem, right? So families interact outside of school, and spread the virus anyway. That kind of behavior is actually the very first thing that all families I know Stopped doing when the pandemic hit.

And I see your point about what is best for society, but as a parent that too is a balancing act. We're all trying to be responsible while also, you know, raising small humans that don't really get what's going on

It's really a question of exposure and degrees there. Let's say you go to your kid's karate class, or whatever sport they're into. You're undoubtedly exposed to the other children in the class and their parents- but that might put you in contact with 20 circles for an hour or two a week.

In an average elementary school you have 30 or so kids they're exposed to, so 30 circles from the classroom itself, and their pair classroom. Some of those kids rode the bus to school- so add another 15 or so circles for their busmates (and I think that's pretty conservative). Each of those 15 circles is attached to another class with a further 30 circles. That's before cafeterias. So school, for an elementary school student, might bring them into contact with 500 or so social circles for 7 hours a day, indoors, in shared air conditioning.

At middle and high school it's not uncommon to rotate through 6 teachers throughout the day, dramatically increasing their exposure.

I definitely noticed the effects of isolation with my 10 year old, which is why we went back to his jiujitsu friends. That increased our circle of exposure by 20 families or so, but seems to have fulfilled his social requirements.

TLDR, you've heard the comparison of walmart and home depot are open so schools can be open? It's the same thing with a club or social activity for your kid. They aren't the same as school.

And it turns out the OC BOE push for full reopening was tied to a scheme to open a new charter school in August. They we’re literally willing to sacrifice some innocent lives for profit.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-17/push-for-reopening-orange-county-schools-without-masks-has-pro-charter-school-links

Also note the section on how the BoE cherrypicked their scientific data points. Our current understanding of coronavirus is very different from that nonsense spread by the “kids are safe” crowd.

Gitzbitah - I get that, but you can also have kids (at least younger ones with single teachers) in "pods" of classes similar in size to your jiujitsu example. Obviously, they have a lot more exposure to each other than in jiujitsu, though.

By the way, that is a fantastic idea to do for your child, especially since many of the exercises for it are already socially distanced (at least, from my understanding, I'm no martial artist ). So good work there

Again, sending kids to school, will, with no legitimate question, spread the virus.

And people advocating for it, in the country and in this thread, are advocating for something that will, without question, kill people. For nebulous gain continuously equivocated over.

stratigo wrote:
Again, sending kids to school, will, with no legitimate question, spread the virus.

And people advocating for it, in the country and in this thread, are advocating for something that will, without question, kill people. For nebulous gain continuously equivocated over.

Sending children however not, may also kill especially rural / poor children aswell.
It is by FAR not as black and white as you insinuate.

And if it spreads it doesn't help the work sector because now instead of parents having to juggle work and home time and doing alternate shifts the like - which isn't ideal but can at least give you staff who can plan when they will and won't be working; you instead take up a system where staff might end up isolated and locked down. If the outbreak is big enough even your own workplace will be locked down as well. Suddenly instead of containing it you've got an outbreak and instead of employees being haphazard you've got a full shut down where nothing gets done.

The whole school issue is honestly a madness I think. I get why certain segments want it done, but at the end of the day schools and universities are well known to spread viruses. We've generations of proof of that and even if you limit it to just Corona we've multiple examples.

 Overread wrote:
And if it spreads it doesn't help the work sector because now instead of parents having to juggle work and home time and doing alternate shifts the like - which isn't ideal but can at least give you staff who can plan when they will and won't be working; you instead take up a system where staff might end up isolated and locked down. If the outbreak is big enough even your own workplace will be locked down as well. Suddenly instead of containing it you've got an outbreak and instead of employees being haphazard you've got a full shut down where nothing gets done.

The whole school issue is honestly a madness I think. I get why certain segments want it done, but at the end of the day schools and universities are well known to spread viruses. We've generations of proof of that and even if you limit it to just Corona we've multiple examples.

Absolutely, i think personally digital learning for a year or two could be palpable. Could be. It is not however a permanent solution. It is also not temorary maintainable enough for such a long stretch we are looking at.

It's just not as clear cut is my position.

Not Online!!! wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Again, sending kids to school, will, with no legitimate question, spread the virus.

And people advocating for it, in the country and in this thread, are advocating for something that will, without question, kill people. For nebulous gain continuously equivocated over.

Sending children however not, may also kill especially rural / poor children aswell.
It is by FAR not as black and white as you insinuate.

Which sounds to me like a good reason to explore options for a limited reopening, perhaps with a few very small classes for children who need school to survive or whose parents are willing to take the risk and sign the waiver, with full use of masks, social distancing as possible, deep cleaning as possible, and teachers who volunteer for the position and receive hazard pay, all while keeping the majority of staff and students on a distance learning plan.

It does not sound like a reason to throw all children together regardless of their situation or their families’ risk, and force all teachers into the Petri dish regardless of risk, at the threat of defunding or expulsion from the district.

Not Online!!! wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Again, sending kids to school, will, with no legitimate question, spread the virus.

And people advocating for it, in the country and in this thread, are advocating for something that will, without question, kill people. For nebulous gain continuously equivocated over.

Sending children however not, may also kill especially rural / poor children aswell.
It is by FAR not as black and white as you insinuate.

How will it kill them?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Again, sending kids to school, will, with no legitimate question, spread the virus.

And people advocating for it, in the country and in this thread, are advocating for something that will, without question, kill people. For nebulous gain continuously equivocated over.

Sending children however not, may also kill especially rural / poor children aswell.
It is by FAR not as black and white as you insinuate.

How will it kill them?

I'm assuming he's referring to those children who rely on state provided meals because their parents are unable/willing to feed them properly at home

In our district, the schools have been providing meals to children through the pandemic. They even give a weekend’s worth on Fridays. It’s handled like an outdoors drive-thru where’re everyone wears masks and gloves. I’ve even heard of some schools delivering food to isolated households. There is no need to fully reopen in order to feed children.

For what's it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree about not "requiring" schools to open. Each school district should be able to decide what's best for them based on conditions in the community, what mitigation they can put in place, etc.

But I think it's also well worth considering every option, to make sure we give each kid the best chance to learn possible given the circumstances. To call going to school "nebulous gain" (to the other poster above) kind of blows my mind. Can you imagine anyone saying this at any other time - that in-person education is only a nebulous improvement over remote?

That is obviously false. For many kids, school is their lifeline. Lots of families are going to have an incredibly difficult time this year, and writing it off like that is pretty infuriating. I sat on my typing hands, though, and managed to only write this note pointing that out (okay, I admit it, I wrote more but then hit "delete" )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxLDJJb1_KI&list=WL&index=63&t=4s

little piece on uk death stats

 Overread wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Again, sending kids to school, will, with no legitimate question, spread the virus.

And people advocating for it, in the country and in this thread, are advocating for something that will, without question, kill people. For nebulous gain continuously equivocated over.

Sending children however not, may also kill especially rural / poor children aswell.
It is by FAR not as black and white as you insinuate.

How will it kill them?

I'm assuming he's referring to those children who rely on state provided meals because their parents are unable/willing to feed them properly at home

Kids not getting meals sounds to me like a way bigger problem that should not tackled by only schools.

People say that Quarantine and SIP are resulting in higher amounts of Domestic abuse and child abuse so it must be ended.
But it seems like those are problems that need to be tackled in totally different ways. They are not caused my quarantine but exacerbated by it. So we need to tackle those issues not realtged to quarantine.
What this Pandemic did is show us just how reliant the US is on small stop gap measures to stop a horrid tide os social problems from overwhelming us and how those stop gaps are failing horribly(Like Free school lunches used to feed children) its a measure that ignores so many other problems such as food desserts, lack on transportation for many poor/rural communities.

That's true, but you do what you can.

I taught in a high need school, and there are a lot of terrible things kids have to deal with. And almost all of them are mitigated (in whatever way they can be) almost solely through school mechanisms.

You can't change that system overnight, or with school set to start in a month or even less...

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Again, sending kids to school, will, with no legitimate question, spread the virus.

And people advocating for it, in the country and in this thread, are advocating for something that will, without question, kill people. For nebulous gain continuously equivocated over.

Sending children however not, may also kill especially rural / poor children aswell.
It is by FAR not as black and white as you insinuate.

How will it kill them?

I'm assuming he's referring to those children who rely on state provided meals because their parents are unable/willing to feed them properly at home

Kids not getting meals sounds to me like a way bigger problem that should not tackled by only schools.

People say that Quarantine and SIP are resulting in higher amounts of Domestic abuse and child abuse so it must be ended.
But it seems like those are problems that need to be tackled in totally different ways. They are not caused my quarantine but exacerbated by it. So we need to tackle those issues not realtged to quarantine.
What this Pandemic did is show us just how reliant the US is on small stop gap measures to stop a horrid tide os social problems from overwhelming us and how those stop gaps are failing horribly(Like Free school lunches used to feed children) its a measure that ignores so many other problems such as food desserts, lack on transportation for many poor/rural communities.

Oh absolutely, but considering how adamant the US pop is to promote big monolithic buisness, go at each others throat and don't implement some meassures for welfare, not to mention actually invests in these areas, breaks up monopol towns (towns dominated by one workprovider) so long the stopgap is necessary.
Now consider even poorer states, like india etc.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
In our district, the schools have been providing meals to children through the pandemic. They even give a weekend’s worth on Fridays. It’s handled like an outdoors drive-thru where’re everyone wears masks and gloves. I’ve even heard of some schools delivering food to isolated households. There is no need to fully reopen in order to feed children.

Which is crazy that this has become the school's job! We expect schools and cops to do all the heavy lifting in our society, and businesses to do nothing. Weird.

Same thing happens in my school district as well.

 RiTides wrote:
That's true, but you do what you can.

I taught in a high need school, and there are a lot of terrible things kids have to deal with. And almost all of them are mitigated (in whatever way they can be) almost solely through school mechanisms.

You can't change that system overnight, or with school set to start in a month or even less...

this.

the ammount that would need to be done also would require significant political ressources.
not to say that the dividends wouldn't pay off, you can see that in history quite well in switzerland which from 1848 -1871 did attempt to modernise and improve along these ways, but you need the will and the consent of the corresponding communities, and that is quite frankly extremely difficult to achieve due to other issues, like voting laws, decentralisation etc.

 RiTides wrote:
For what's it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree about not "requiring" schools to open. Each school district should be able to decide what's best for them based on conditions in the community, what mitigation they can put in place, etc.

But I think it's also well worth considering every option, to make sure we give each kid the best chance to learn possible given the circumstances. To call going to school "nebulous gain" (to the other poster above) kind of blows my mind. Can you imagine anyone saying this at any other time - that in-person education is only a nebulous improvement over remote?

That is obviously false. For many kids, school is their lifeline. Lots of families are going to have an incredibly difficult time this year, and writing it off like that is pretty infuriating. I sat on my typing hands, though, and managed to only write this note pointing that out (okay, I admit it, I wrote more but then hit "delete" )

No one was arguing against considering reasonable options. What set me off was an attempt at requiring schools to fully reopen with a threat of consequences, and justified by science so bad that even the experts named on the document argued against it. Each school district making its own decisions based on an objective weighing of risks and harms was the side we were on.

There are many different children and families, and for some the risk is very real and very concrete. For my family, and others with high risk members, we have to weigh the benefits of school and negatives that might take a while to correct if they ever can be versus the likelihood that the child may experience permanent disability due to lung or neurological damage, and have to face it while grieving for a dead parent. The freedom for parents to weigh the risks and choose the best action for their families without pressure or coercion was what we were arguing for.

Well then we are arguing for the same thing! I definitely don't think anyone should be forced to do anything, and ideally want as many options as possible to meet everyone's needs as well as can be done...

In other news, the UK, US and Canada say Russia hacked vaccine research:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/17/russian-hackers-steal-coronavirus-vaccine-uk-minister-cyber-attack

I'm more annoyed the organizations involved aren't openly sharing research.

That its being buried like its a competition for 'first to market' is entirely approaching it from the wrong angle.

Not Online!!! wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Again, sending kids to school, will, with no legitimate question, spread the virus.

And people advocating for it, in the country and in this thread, are advocating for something that will, without question, kill people. For nebulous gain continuously equivocated over.

Sending children however not, may also kill especially rural / poor children aswell.
It is by FAR not as black and white as you insinuate.

It is way easier to provide a program to feed children staying at home than it is to somehow prevent a virus from spreading via close contact in confined spaces. We just, you know, need the political will.

But it seems that cruelty is the point sometimes. The poor must be sacrificed to the virus so that the rich don't have to worry about the economy or something.

stratigo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Again, sending kids to school, will, with no legitimate question, spread the virus.

And people advocating for it, in the country and in this thread, are advocating for something that will, without question, kill people. For nebulous gain continuously equivocated over.

Sending children however not, may also kill especially rural / poor children aswell.
It is by FAR not as black and white as you insinuate.

It is way easier to provide a program to feed children staying at home than it is to somehow prevent a virus from spreading via close contact in confined spaces. We just, you know, need the political will.

But it seems that cruelty is the point sometimes. The poor must be sacrificed to the virus so that the rich don't have to worry about the economy or something.

Or as stated in my other Post , the Rich bring up the will and earn the benefit of vastly lower crimerates, security, educated workpool, General Living improvement etc...
It's fethed regardless though , because School shouldn't be needed to feed children .....