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 AtoMaki wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

The Exorcist was a Predator, not a Razorback.

I think the Exorcist is a Vindicator: a heavy tank with one very big gun. The difference is that the former has more range but less power on the gun while the latter is the opposite. But I think this changed with the new dex because the Exorcist received a big firepower boost?

13/11/10 BS3+ with 1d6 [3.5 average] shots at S8 AP1 48" range
and
13/11/10 BS3+ with 3 shots [1 TL] at S9 AP2 48" range
vs
13/11/10 Large Blast S10 AP2 24" range?


It's a Predator.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


13/11/10 BS3+ with 1d6 [3.5 average] shots at S8 AP1 48" range
and
13/11/10 BS3+ with 3 shots [1 TL] at S9 AP2 48" range
vs
13/11/10 Large Blast S10 AP2 24" range?


It's a Predator.

Well, in my head, it is more like this: 13/11/10 + big gun that shoots forward VS 13/11/10 + big gun that shoots forward VS 13/11/10 + three (four) medium guns firing all around (mostly) . I mean, sure, stat-wise the Exorcist was closer to the Predator but I feel like the overall concept was closer to the Vindicator.

Actually, the Exorcist is even tougher than the Vindicator, at least in this edition.

In real life and many codexes, you can fit many different weapons on the same chassis, so that’s really more telling to categorize vehicles by chassis, which in WH40K terms means Move, Strength, Toughness, Wounds, and Save.
By those criteria, the current Exorcist is the heaviest and most survivable member of the whole Rhino family. All have Sv:3+ and Move 12" (except, strangely, the Vindicator at Move 10"), but otherwise:

Rhino/Razorback/Immolator: S:6 T:7 W:10
Predator: S:6 T:7 W:11
Vindicator: S:6 T:8 W:11
Exorcist: S:7 T:8 W:12

That's one more point of Strength (presumably representing sheer mass plowing into people) and one more Wound than even the Vindicator, without sacrificing speed like the Vindicator does. It's actually the same S:7 T:8 W:12 statline as the freakin' Leman Russ, with better speed.

So:

1) That's awesome.
2) Does it diminish the specialness of the Exorcist to build other Sisters vehicles on this same super-tough chassis, or does it make those new vehicles more Sister-ly?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


13/11/10 BS3+ with 1d6 [3.5 average] shots at S8 AP1 48" range
and
13/11/10 BS3+ with 3 shots [1 TL] at S9 AP2 48" range
vs
13/11/10 Large Blast S10 AP2 24" range?


It's a Predator.

Well, in my head, it is more like this: 13/11/10 + big gun that shoots forward VS 13/11/10 + big gun that shoots forward VS 13/11/10 + three (four) medium guns firing all around (mostly) . I mean, sure, stat-wise the Exorcist was closer to the Predator but I feel like the overall concept was closer to the Vindicator.

Exorcist has a 360 degree field of fire and fires multiple shots, actually. It's not forward-restricted.

The vindicator fired once in a large blast, so they felt extremely different back then. They weren't really effective against the same targets. The Vindicator was effective against heavy vehicles [S10] and infantry [Blast], the Exorcist was effective against monstrous creatures [Multiple Shots] and medium/light vehicles [medium strength, good AP].

 AtoMaki wrote:
I mean, sure, stat-wise the Exorcist was closer to the Predator but I feel like the overall concept was closer to the Vindicator.

More of a whirlwind surely? :p

A.T. wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I mean, sure, stat-wise the Exorcist was closer to the Predator but I feel like the overall concept was closer to the Vindicator.

More of a whirlwind surely? :p

I do wonder why the Exorcist does not have indirect fire capability.

I had an indirect-fire option for the Exorcist in my old fandex and I plan to revise it for 8th. But first I really do want follks' input on a crucial homebrew question: Should new Sisters tanks use the Predator's statline (S:6 T:7 W:11) or the Exorcist's (S:7 T:8 W:12)?
Clearly, the Exorcist has better stats and is the Sisters' unique, iconic armored vehicle -- but does that mean we should save the Exorcist statline for the Exorcist alone, to keep it unique, or use it for new Sisters' tanks as well, to make it clear they're Sisters vehicles?

I would vote to keep it toughness 8 unless you’re planning to do a quad lascannon version like the predator. The predator isn’t designed to sit in slug out fights. It’s meant to hit hard and fast. The SoB aren’t as focused on rapid strikes so having a tank that can take return fire feels right.

The exorcist could be kitted our more like a tank so it could should be T8 at a slight cost to weapons optimization. There should be room to find a unique rule set between the predator and the Russ. It should benefit from being more accurate and faster than the Russ but more sturdy than a predator. Offensively it should be less efficient than the specialized predators and not put out as many shots as a double tapping Russ.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I had an indirect-fire option for the Exorcist in my old fandex and I plan to revise it for 8th. But first I really do want follks' input on a crucial homebrew question: Should new Sisters tanks use the Predator's statline (S:6 T:7 W:11) or the Exorcist's (S:7 T:8 W:12)?

If it's a heavy support immolator variant (armed with a front turret weapon like an immolator cannon) then predator statline.

If it's a heavy tank with a big gun mounted at the back/along the length and all the extra armour plates then exorcist profile.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I had an indirect-fire option for the Exorcist in my old fandex and I plan to revise it for 8th. But first I really do want follks' input on a crucial homebrew question: Should new Sisters tanks use the Predator's statline (S:6 T:7 W:11) or the Exorcist's (S:7 T:8 W:12)?

I would go S7 T7 W12 for an original spin: the tank would have its big gun (ABC, magma melta or inferno canno) on an open-topped hull mount and its heavy bolter on a special gunner station.Like the M7 Priest, but on a Rhino chassis. So it would look like a pulpit-tank for a distinct SoB feel.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
I had an indirect-fire option for the Exorcist in my old fandex and I plan to revise it for 8th. But first I really do want follks' input on a crucial homebrew question: Should new Sisters tanks use the Predator's statline (S:6 T:7 W:11) or the Exorcist's (S:7 T:8 W:12)?

I would go S7 T7 W12 for an original spin: the tank would have its big gun (ABC, magma melta or inferno canno) on an open-topped hull mount and its heavy bolter on a special gunner station.Like the M7 Priest, but on a Rhino chassis. So it would look like a pulpit-tank for a distinct SoB feel.

Okay, now that you brought it up and I had never thought of it before, that's something that needs to happen.

WWII self propelled guns in western allied service were named after religious figures [Bishop, Abbott, Priest, Sexton], so a M7-Priest shaped artillery vehicle [basically an open-topped vindicator] used by the church would be pretty funny.

We already have a rocket launcher that's actually an organ [in reference to the sound rocket launchers made, with the M-13-16 having the nickname "Stalin's Organ" by the Germans, and the T34 Calliope having the official name well, Calliope.]


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I mean, sure, stat-wise the Exorcist was closer to the Predator but I feel like the overall concept was closer to the Vindicator.

More of a whirlwind surely? :p

I do wonder why the Exorcist does not have indirect fire capability.

Because it's not artillery. It basically fires guided AT missiles, as I understand it.

Based on some great feedback from this thread — many thanks to all — I’ve totally revised my ideas for Sororitas main battle tanks from Predator variants to different guns on the Exorcist chassis, which is considerably tougher: the Lector has an Avenger Bolt Cannon, the Flammifer a Flamestorm Cannon, the Lucifer (“Light-Bearer”) a Thermal Lance (ie Assault melta). I’ve also statted up a long-range, indirect fire variant for the Exorcist and a three new upgrades for any Sororitas vehicle: vehicular versions of the Simulacrum and Loud Hailer, plus an armoured pulpit that lets embarked characters use aura abilities (and turns any tank into a 1-capacity transport if it wasn’t one before).

The actual rules follow below, in spoilers to prevent Wall of Text. I’m eager to hear your suggestions on how to improve these. Rules for new wargear and abilities that aren’t in the current Sisters codex are marked with headers in boldface


Exorcist - additional wargear option:
This model can be equipped with Exorcist omnipresence rockets instead of 1 Exorcist missile launcher:

Exorcist omnipresence rockets (70 pts)
Range: 72” Heavy:3D3 S:5 AP:-2 D :1
This weapon can target units that are not visible to the bearer.


Any Adepta Sororitas Exorcist, Immolator, Repressor, or Rhino may take any of the following:


Lector/Flammifer/Lucifer
90 points (not including wargear)
M:* WS:6+ BS:* S:7 T:8 W:12 A* Ld:7 Sv:3+


Design Notes

The tanks look good. They all look in kind with most units in the game. Honestly the less you think about space on vehicles and units, the better. The average boltgun magazine looks like it hold 5 to 10 rounds.l and I don’t know how terminators reload when they have a power fist. The avenger cannon is fine on an exorcist

The armored pulpit seems a bit too much though. You’re essentially adding up to 12 T8 wounds to your character at the risk of a 1/6 chance of the character dying if the vehicle is destroyed (1/36 for the no brained CP re-roll). I think this would work better as a strategem for transports like the guard equivalent.

Laud Hailer seems a little expensive. LD isn’t that useful right now and I can’t see anyone taking that upgrade over say another melta gun.

I’m a bit mixed on the vehicle simulacrum. On the one hand I feel like it was a design choice to not include vehicles in the mass act of faith use. On the other hand, I despise the fact that some factions don’t get their specific rules for all of their units. I feel like 10 points is too cheep for what that can provide for an Exorcist though.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I mean, sure, stat-wise the Exorcist was closer to the Predator but I feel like the overall concept was closer to the Vindicator.

More of a whirlwind surely? :p

I do wonder why the Exorcist does not have indirect fire capability.

Because it's not artillery. It basically fires guided AT missiles, as I understand it.

As far as I know, the Exorcist fires its missiles in a vertical trajectory, so they go straight up then rain down like a mortar shell. Heck, the new dex specifically mentions the Exorcist as an artillery tank:

Far more than mere inspirational idols, Exorcists are mobile artillery tanks whose firepower is both long-range and prodigious. With every flurry of notes performed by the Battle Sister artillerist, targeting solutions are cogitated, impact coordinates inloaded and batteries of high-explosive or incendiary rockets sent skyward. These thrice-blessed payloads soar high on arcing contrails before raining down to strike the Emperor’s foes from on high.

If I might ask - why firestorm rather than inferno cannon? The latter would seem more distinct from the immolator with its extended range.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Because it's not artillery. It basically fires guided AT missiles, as I understand it.

The organ tank in particular would suggest something akin to a salvo-firing javelin launcher - up high into the air and then down from above.

Though I mentioned the whirlwind just because so many people seemed to use the model as a proxy. In terms of indirect fire and/or ignoring cover the conflagration were a bit of a let down, i've yet to see them used.

One thing that defines the Pred to me is the sponsons. It looks like you left those option out when you used the Exorcist chassis, which I think is a good idea.

If you wanted to make another round of tanks using the pred chassis (T7 etc, etc) you could add HF/HB/MM sponsons. At least the first two. Do the FW preds get MMs as sponson options? Or are they considered to main-gun to be secondary weapons? But you’d think if they can manage LCs, they could pull off MMs. But all three are part of the holy triumvirate, so should get the SoB purity seal of approval.

Thanks, all. I was honestly torn about sponson weapons, at least for the flamer & melta variants, because the ability to deal with secondary targets is very useful for a vehicle charging up the table.... but T:8 W:12 is even more useful, and I felt it would be OTT to have an Exorcist-tough chassis and Predator-style sponsons. I think I can rationalize this in-universe by saying sponsons are inherently weak points in the armor (because you have a weapon port with ammo behind it, rather than solid plate) and the level of add-on armor bolted to the basic Rhino chassis to make an Exorcist puts solid plate where the sponsons would go.

Other specific comments:

A.T. wrote:If I might ask - why firestorm rather than inferno cannon? The latter would seem more distinct from the immolator with its extended range.

I originally went with the Inferno Cannon, but it was pointed out that comes with a greatly increased chance of the vehicle exploding... Now, maybe that isn't a bad thing, depending on where it is when it explodes, especially since we have a Stratagem to make Immolators explode.

Also, while the Flamestorm Cannon has the same range as the Immolation Flamer, it has better strength, AP, and damage, which makes it pretty distinct. Tactically, I'd envision the Flammifer advancing with Immolators, taking out the tougher targets while they flame the hordes.

evil_kiwi_60 wrote:The armored pulpit seems a bit too much though. You’re essentially adding up to 12 T8 wounds to your character at the risk of a 1/6 chance of the character dying if the vehicle is destroyed (1/36 for the no brained CP re-roll). I think this would work better as a strategem for transports like the guard equivalent.

Laud Hailer seems a little expensive. LD isn’t that useful right now and I can’t see anyone taking that upgrade over say another melta gun.

I’m a bit mixed on the vehicle simulacrum. On the one hand I feel like it was a design choice to not include vehicles in the mass act of faith use. On the other hand, I despise the fact that some factions don’t get their specific rules for all of their units. I feel like 10 points is too cheep for what that can provide for an Exorcist though.

All good points. I find it weird that the IG command vehicles are a stratagem bought with CP rather than an upgrade bought with army points, but maybe it's easier to balance that way. On the other hand, remember that a character you put in a vehicle can't use its own weapons to attack, which is not much of an issue for generic IG leaders but is for a Canoness.

Huh. This vehicle can trigger Holy Trinity all on its own. Neat. Shame about the name, though – the Rhino gets away with it, but are there any alternatives for "Sororitas Predator"? The Deliverer, or something?

Isn't a Twin Inferno Cannon the sort of thing you normally see on a Titan? It seems obscenely strong, when you compare it to the Deimos Predator where the Magna-Melta Cannon comes from. The Deimos gets the MMC for 50pts, and can swap it for the Infernus Cannon for 45pts – the Infernus Cannon has half the range, half the shots, and only S5, but gets D2 in exchange. Twin Inferno Cannon looks much too strong by comparison.

...hell, even as an anti-vehicle weapon, I'm pretty sure the Twin Inferno Cannon is capable of competing with the Magna-Melta just by sheer weight of shots. Against, say, Astra Militarum Infantry, the Twin Inferno Cannon averages 9.72 kills, wiping out a whole squad, while the Magna-Melta kills 1.11. Against a Leman Russ, the Multi-Melta averages 3.11 wounds (at 24-13"), while the Twin Inferno Cannon averages... 2.33 wounds. Plus, 4D6 shots is insane when you pair it up with the Cleansing Flames Stratagem (24 S6 AP-1 autohits, yay), assuming it's marked as a Flame Weapon, which it should be.

Faithful Advance feels like it should include the Retributors' heavy flamer upgrade, as well. It's very straightforward, though that's not really a problem in itself, but have you considered tying it to a vehicle or other condition? Like, maybe it's a more expensive aura that extends 1" from a Predator, to create an image of advancing alongside the cleansing firepower of the Predator? Or a targeted benefit like removing the penalty against a specific unit, provided all the weapons are the same type (bolt/flame/melta)? Or something else?

Thanks for the analysis. I'll ponder the Faithful Advance stratagem and whether I should tie it more closely to the vehicles...

You also made me realize that the old version of this unit is still at the top of the thread. I'll fix that, because other folks convinced me to put these on an Exorcist chassis instead and give them Sisterly names, and that version does address a lot of your concerns -- please take a look and say what's still missing:Lector, Flammifer, & Lucifer

Looking at the new version... I don't think I'd ever take the Flamestorm. With no sponsons, your main gun is doing all the work, and a D2 12" heavy flamer doesn't seem like nearly enough work for a full tank. I'd also note that, as written, the thermal lance isn't a "melta" weapon. ...actually, this seems like it's just a tougher Immolator with no transport capacity? Its three weapon options are barely different from the Immolator's weapon options, even. What does it add? Is there something more that could be done to distinguish it?

I'd replace the wording on the pulpit with just "aura abilities"; as it stands, it reads like you're giving them all those abilities at once.

Thanks. You're right, the armoured pulpit rule is very messy. I was thinking just making it an upgrade that gave a vehicle a choice of War Hymns, Inspired Oratory, or Litanies. Basically the Preacher / Dialogus / Imagifier would be "built in" and couldn't dismount as a separate character. Cost would be that of the character plus maybe a 20 point premium for being MUCH harder to kill.

Thermal lance should have the melta rule -- I'll fix that.

And I've been back and forth on flamer weapons. I was thinking of double Flamestorms, like on a Land Raider Redeemer, for 50 points.

I think if we can get the weapons powerful enough -- without being OP -- then that and the tougher hull will distinguish these adequately from Immolators.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Thanks. You're right, the armoured pulpit rule is very messy. I was thinking just making it an upgrade that gave a vehicle a choice of War Hymns, Inspired Oratory, or Litanies. Basically the Preacher / Dialogus / Imagifier would be "built in" and couldn't dismount as a separate character. Cost would be that of the character plus maybe a 20 point premium for being MUCH harder to kill.

My suggestion for the current version would simply be:

A vehicle with an armoured pulpit can transport 1 ADEPTUS MINISTORUM CHARACTER model in its pulpit, in addition to any transport capacity it normally has. It gains the TRANSPORT keyword, if it did not already have it. An ADEPTUS MINISTORUM CHARACTER model embarked in an armoured pulpit may use its aura abilities even while it is embarked (measuring distances from any point on the vehicle model).

That’s much clearer. It’s still very hard to cost fairly because it gives a character basically a tank’s worth of high-toughness Wounds. Perhaps the solution — a little complicated rules-wise but very cool — is to allow the character in the armored pulpit to be sniped, which is realistic. They’d count as being in cover or something like that but otherwise would be treated as if they were on the board....

 SisterSydney wrote:
That’s much clearer. It’s still very hard to cost fairly because it gives a character basically a tank’s worth of high-toughness Wounds. Perhaps the solution — a little complicated rules-wise but very cool — is to allow the character in the armored pulpit to be sniped, which is realistic. They’d count as being in cover or something like that but otherwise would be treated as if they were on the board....

Something similar is a Warlord trait for the Imperial Guard. Plus there's obviously the Tank Commander, which is a Leman Russ that can give orders for +40pts.

Right, and it feels more natural to me to buy a HQ/vehicle upgrade as part of my army than to spend CP on it, since CP in my mind is for "cool situational things you can do during battle," while army points are "here's what you have to bring to the battle."

So, what do folks think of this version?

Armoured Pulpit (20 points)
Any Adeptus Ministorum Transport that is not also a Flyer may take 1 Armoured Pulpit. 1 Adeptus MInistorum character embarked on a transport with this upgrade may ride in the pulpit. This character may use aura abilities and make ranged attacks as if they were not embarked, measuring ranges from any point on the hull. This character may also be targeted by ranged attacks, but they gain the benefits of being in cover and are never considered the closest viable target to the model shooting at them.

Hey, that doesn't seem too complicated to me. It's very fluffy, since it makes sense that Ministorum buff auras require the Preacher or Imagifier or whoever to be visible to the troops they're inspiring, not holed up inside a metal box (the fools!) giving orders over vox like a Guard officer. And it offers the enemy the chance to snipe them out of the pulpit, which is both a cool bit of gameplay and makes this upgrade much less OP, since the character riding in it is now only adding cover (+1 to save), the ability to move at the speed of the vehicle, and immunity from melee (and inability to fight in melee), rather than not being vulnerable at all until the vehicle is destroyed.

I've tweaked the other vehicle wargear a little and added an old favorite: Holy Promethium.

Holy Promethium
(5 pts per heavy flamer, 10 points per immolation flamer)
Add 1 to the Strength characteristic when this vehicle is attacking with flamer weapons.

Laud Hailer (10 pts)
Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of Adepta Sororitas units whilst they are within 6” of any friendly models with this ability.
This was overcosted at 15 points

Simulacrum Vehicularis (15 pts)
If this model has a Simulacrum Vehicularis, then once per phase, you can perform an Act of Faith for this model, even if you have already performed one or more Acts of Faith in that phase.
This was undercosted at 10 points...

Also, I just posted four Sororitas Flyers, all with BS:3+ and Acts of Faith, including the Marauder variant with the Exorcist sticking out of it... . Everyone's been really helpful on this thread, so I'd love your comments on that one.

Here's another bit of vehicle wargear we really need, I realize: a way for Immolators to scout forward again:

Dominion Crew (10 points)
Adepta Sororitas Transports only. If this model is transporting at least one Dominion Squad, it gains the Vanguard special rule.

Over in the Sororitas Flyers thread (which I'd love all y'all to check out and critique), I realized that the Lucifer's Thermal Lance/Melta Lance was way undercosted, since at 35 points it was less than a twin multi-melta yet had better range and the assault rule. Recosting that made it clear a single Flamestorm Cannon was, as pointed out here, way too weak, so I gave the Flammifer a twin one. The rules below (with spoiler tags to prevent wall of text) include these changes and put all the vehicular wargear in one post. As always, your comments -- complimentary or critical -- are eagerly welcomed.


***

New Sororitas Vehicular Wargear

Exorcist - additional wargear option:
This model can be equipped with Exorcist omnipresence rockets instead of 1 Exorcist missile launcher:

Exorcist omnipresence rockets (70 pts)
Range: 72” Heavy:3D3 S:5 AP:-2 D :1
This weapon can target units that are not visible to the bearer.

*

Any Adepta Sororitas Transport Vehicle that is not a Flyer may take the following:

Armoured Pulpit (20 points)
1 Adeptus MInistorum character embarked on a transport with this upgrade may ride in the pulpit. This character may use aura abilities and make ranged attacks as if they were not embarked, measuring ranges from any point on the hull. This character may also be targeted by ranged attacks, but they gain the benefits of being in cover and are never considered the closest viable target to the model shooting at them.

Dominion Crew (10 points)
If this model is transporting at least one Dominion Squad, it gains the Vanguard special rule.

*

Any Adepta Sororitas Vehicle that is not a Flyer make take the following:

Holy Promethium
(5 pts per heavy flamer, 10 points per immolation flamer)
Add 1 to the Strength characteristic when this vehicle is attacking with flamer weapons.

Laud Hailer (10 pts)
Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of Adepta Sororitas units whilst they are within 6” of any friendly models with this ability.

Simulacrum Vehicularis (15 pts)
If this model has a Simulacrum Vehicularis, then once per phase, you can perform an Act of Faith for this model, even if you have already performed one or more Acts of Faith in that phase.


**

Lector/Flammifer/Lucifer
90 points (not including wargear)
M:* WS:6+ BS:* S:7 T:8 W:12 A* Ld:7 Sv:3+

Some of this model’s characteristics change as it suffers damage, as shown below:
W:7-12 M:12” BS:3+ A:3
W:4-6 M:6” BS:4+ A: D3
W: 1-3 M:4” BS:5+ A:1

This unit contains a 1 Lector, Flammifer, or Lucifer.
A Lector is a single model equipped with a heavy bolter and an Avenger Bolt Cannon.
A Flammifer is a single model equipped with a heavy bolter and a Twin Flamestorm Cannon.
A Lucifer is a single model equipped with a heavy bolter and a Melta Lance.

Weapons:
Heavy Bolter
Hunter-Killer Missile

Avenger Bolt Cannon (40 pts)
Range: 36” Heavy 8 S:6 AP:-2 D:1

Twin Flamestorm Cannon (45 pts)
Range: 12” Heavy 2D6 S:6 AP:-2 D:2
When resolving an attack made with this weapon, do not make a hit roll: It automatically scores a hit.

Melta Lance (50 pts)
Range: 30” Assault D3 AP:-4 D: D6
When resolving an attack made with this weapon against a target that is within half range, roll two D6 when inflicting damage with it and discard one of the results.

Wargear Options:
This model can additionally be equipped with 1 hunter-killer missile
This model can additionally be equipped with 1 Laud Hailer.
This model can additionally be equipped with 1 Simulacrum Vehicularis.

Abilities:
Acts of Faith, Sacred Rites, Shield of Faith
Explodes
Smoke Launchers


Faction Keywords:
Imperium, Adeptus Ministorum, Adepta Sororitas, ORDER

Keywords:
Vehicle, Lector

Design Notes