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Racerguy180 wrote:
Yeah, kinda mad my Salamanders(ya know, the guys who kinda are known for flame & burning gak) dont get bonus to flamers.

You still get stronger flame weapons than Sisters. Our strongest flamethrower weapons are twin-linked heavy-flamers with a 12" range. You get the big flamer lander raider thingy, and the big flamer predator thingy, don't remember the names.

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They're still selling models right now.

The biggest thing to consider is that GW uses the 'free shipping' to their stores as a big draw. Plus they have deals in place with shipping companies to get their stock moving.

As it stands right now, here in the US? Only shop I'm aware of as 'open' is Warhammer Citadel down in Texas--and that's a big location, which they don't have open for anything other than curbside pickups or scheduled walk-ins.

Pteraxii article

YAY! Grenades are back finally for AdMech!

Wow, they really are just literally Swooping Hawks+1, that's hilarious. This unit gets grenade packs you say? Well, we'll make a unit with the exact same stats except 2W and 2A, with 1 extra shot for their guns, and unlimited grenade packs instead of once per game!

More like, hey DE you like that 1CP strat eviscerating flyby, well admech get it as a special rule, but also it is just plain better verse vehicles. On a unit that looks no more bulky then a hellion yet has 2 wounds, better save, combat and ranged fire lmao.

It's fething sweet for admech players, not hating on it at all, just really wish they could apply rules like this to other factions with garbage units.

Keep in mind for DE it's a 6+ and only a 5+ versus infantry. The only time our mortal wounds are on even ground with this is against infantry and if I recall we have to advance over a unit to get it. This means unless you take red grief (which nobody does anymore) you have to give up attacking in melee and even without that only bikes armed with blasters or heat lances can shoot if you do this and it's at -1 to hit.

I'm kinda used to this bs as dark eldar now. Admech players complain about loss of grenades or something. Dark eldar had like 5 special characters, trueborn and bloodbrides all get axed off for no real reason. People actually liked trueborn as they were like scourge but not so fragile. Our scourge suicide units don't work for anti tank as monsters and tanks are really durable now. Also scourge are mercenaries and don't get sub faction boosts because of that. I can't tell you how much I wanted to boost scourge with something but now they're just shelved. Hellions don't even get stats similar to these jump pack infantry admech get as far as wounds and toughness go.

I'm starting to feel like when new units are concerned DE are the new sisters of battle. They give nice new units to eldar and several methods of movement boosts for their leaders. Meanwhile archons got nerfed into the ground and our heroes can't get anywhere without a raider or venom and when they are in said transports none of their buff abilities work and their guns suck now. Incubi didn't get any new weapon options, skills or anything but new models. Don't get me wrong a new model is cool but when eldar get psychic flyers with super strong flamers, wraithguard with more weapon options, wraith knights, shooty bikes with a special weapon per bike and a far more diverse forge world list I can tell we are in ways the red headed step child in eldar terms.

I suppose that previous paragraph was off topic but I had some rage to empty.

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
As a Sisters player, a bit jealous Ad Mech flamers get AP-1 12 inch range no cover...but you do you Ad Mech. I'll settle that jealousy on the tabletop with a newfound envy. Love the challenge. Suppose all said and done, the points cost will be the nail, or lack thereof, in the coffin.

Yeah, kinda mad my Salamanders(ya know, the guys who kinda are known for flame & burning gak) dont get bonus to flamers.

But I am happy about the sterylizors, my Metallica are sending out sensory augurs, calculating best possible use for tactical scenarios. Just not sure if I'll run them as I feel Sulphurhounds fill the gaps in my Maniple. Will buy & paint some Sterylizors cuz the models kick ass no matter what.

Salamanders dont get special rules to buff their flamers?

Excuse me?

Those Sterylizors do have some nice stats/weapon stats. Be real handy in Cities of Death games especially, or even just if people play with dense terrain.

Would it be reasonable to guess we would get rules for these guys in Kill Team at some point in the future too?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Yeah, kinda mad my Salamanders(ya know, the guys who kinda are known for flame & burning gak) dont get bonus to flamers.

You still get stronger flame weapons than Sisters. Our strongest flamethrower weapons are twin-linked heavy-flamers with a 12" range. You get the big flamer lander raider thingy, and the big flamer predator thingy, don't remember the names.

For me I always got the narrative feel that Sisters' flamers are not particularly better, just more plentiful and their users more proficient. Verses Salamanders where the users are not only highly proficient in using them but also in the maintenance/craftwork side of the weapon as well to make better weapons wielded by more proficient users. While the AdMech, who are often involved in manufacturing these weapons for said factions anyways, may have unusual more powerful versions of weapons but lack the same user-skill the other two may display.

Sisters: Quantity & Proficiency
Sallys: Quality & Proficiency
AdMech: Quality

Just how I see things in very watered-down terms.

thing is, the Deimos Infernus Pred for having basically the largest flamer that isnt on a Super-Heavy, only has 8" range. I'm not asking for everything to be 12", but all Salamanders flamers(except hand flamer)having 9" range and minus the ignore cover would be very fluffy and not too overpowered. You should always think twice about charging a Salamander armed with a flamer.

So having one strat that bluffs flamers and one unit that isnt very Salamandery(invictor) with a flamer.

But back on topic, I still think the Raiders/Sulphurhounds are gonna have a little more versatility over the Pteraxii.

Although it doesn't really matter where flamers are concerned, the proficiency argument kind of breaks down when you realize that your average Salamander, Sister, and the Pteraxii all have the same ballistic skill.

EDIT: NVM off-topic

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
That's the problem with so many Imperium related releases. Sooner or later, GW re-uses an existing concept that another non-Imperial army has, and one up it as part of the general power creep.

Not just with Imperium related releases. The new havoc weapon is basically the same concept as a heavy bolter, except it gets almost 3 times the number of shots because reason.

Whilst that is pretty absurd and doesn't help the game that much (oh joy, more dice to roll and slow things down, and more killing power in a game that has problems with balancing that), they are shorter ranged than their imperial counterpart.
So tactically speaking, you can just avoid it by gunning them down before you advance...unless you are playing a faction that deals most of your damage in the 24" range bracket. Then you're screwed.

The way I see it, these new units will be in the 75-85 point range, keeping them in line with/making the slightly more expensive than the current cost of Infiltrators. I wouldn’t be surprised if they come out at the same points cost as Infiltrators.

It is going to be interesting to see how admech appear on the table once all these releases are complete. I have the feeling that it is going to make a lot of people very salty when they start to compare the units to existing ones.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
That's the problem with so many Imperium related releases. Sooner or later, GW re-uses an existing concept that another non-Imperial army has, and one up it as part of the general power creep.

Not just with Imperium related releases. The new havoc weapon is basically the same concept as a heavy bolter, except it gets almost 3 times the number of shots because reason.

Whilst that is pretty absurd and doesn't help the game that much (oh joy, more dice to roll and slow things down, and more killing power in a game that has problems with balancing that), they are shorter ranged than their imperial counterpart.
So tactically speaking, you can just avoid it by gunning them down before you advance...unless you are playing a faction that deals most of your damage in the 24" range bracket. Then you're screwed.

I'd say it's more like an assault cannon with more shots cus reasons. They do also have access to heavy bolters if you want 'em.

....no, I'm not salty that my Thousand Sons got the exact same weapon a full edition before havocs, with the exact same statline with AP-2 like every rubric weapon in existence, except that it has 1/2 the shots of the bs new Havoc weapon.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
That's the problem with so many Imperium related releases. Sooner or later, GW re-uses an existing concept that another non-Imperial army has, and one up it as part of the general power creep.

Not just with Imperium related releases. The new havoc weapon is basically the same concept as a heavy bolter, except it gets almost 3 times the number of shots because reason.

Whilst that is pretty absurd and doesn't help the game that much (oh joy, more dice to roll and slow things down, and more killing power in a game that has problems with balancing that), they are shorter ranged than their imperial counterpart.
So tactically speaking, you can just avoid it by gunning them down before you advance...unless you are playing a faction that deals most of your damage in the 24" range bracket. Then you're screwed.

They are basically 30" range(24"+movement at no penalty). Plenty enough. Longer than that LOS starts to become issue anyway.

Kdash wrote:
The way I see it, these new units will be in the 75-85 point range, keeping them in line with/making the slightly more expensive than the current cost of Infiltrators. I wouldn’t be surprised if they come out at the same points cost as Infiltrators.

It is going to be interesting to see how admech appear on the table once all these releases are complete. I have the feeling that it is going to make a lot of people very salty when they start to compare the units to existing ones.

If it's a minum of 5 models for that price these things are going to be spammed hard I suspect, comparing them to a number of similar models they are worth more than 20 points each easily.

Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if it were 25ppm for the Flamer dudes. A big block of 10 dishing out 9d6 -1AP autohits that ignore cover, then the capacity to deal some hurt in melee as well would be pretty insane at much less.

75-85pts would be a steal, even ignoring their melee capabilities. They've got better than average guns & 2 wounds.

I'd honestly be suprised if the unit doesn't cost over 100pts.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
75-85pts would be a steal, even ignoring their melee capabilities. They've got better than average guns & 2 wounds.

I'd honestly be suprised if the unit doesn't cost over 100pts.

It looks like the guys with the flechette carbines don’t have the melee ability. Their feet don’t have the large blade and piston that the Flamer ones have. So that’s interesting and may make the flechette guys quite cheap.

I like that GW finally remembered that flamer weapons are supposed to ignore cover.
That's been bothering me throughout 8th ed. Hopefully they'll go through and update all over flamer-type weapons to ignore cover.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


I like that GW finally remembered that flamer weapons are supposed to ignore cover.
That's been bothering me throughout 8th ed. Hopefully they'll go through and update all over flamer-type weapons to ignore cover.

Don't hold your breath. This weapon ignores cover because Phosphor weapons always ignore cover.

Range 8" or less, S4 or less flamers are nearly unused in 8th. When they changed the Daemon unit Flamers (not to be confused with the gun) to 12" it made them substantially better. It is very GW to not go back and fix all existing flamers while making every new flamer style weapon good.

All these amazing mortal wound on fly over units and you've forgotten the greatest of them all... The Screamer. 1 dice per model and you just need a 6 to do a wound. They've even future proofed the rule which says you need to roll a 6, so if they get a +1 to the roll 7s will fail and they still only do a mortal 17% of the time!

Points will determine their value - but its hard not to bristle at the rules creep.

The more I look at it the more angry I get. Which may be irrational - but a unit of 10 moving over a vehicle is on to do 6-7 mortal wounds? What on earth are you thinking, are you even thinking at all?

Why on earth does a unit with 12" -1 AP flamers "also" throw out 3 S5 AP-1 attacks in melee? Very likely with deep strike because flying?

Tyel wrote:
Points will determine their value - but its hard not to bristle at the rules creep.

The more I look at it the more angry I get. Which may be irrational - but a unit of 10 moving over a vehicle is on to do 6-7 mortal wounds? What on earth are you thinking, are you even thinking at all?

Why on earth does a unit with 12" -1 AP flamers "also" throw out 3 S5 AP-1 attacks in melee? Very likely with deep strike because flying?

In practicality they wont use their melee much, especially the grenades. They die really fast and are glasscannons. If they deepstrike they wont move over any unit and melee is very unlikely. Putting them in a transport is not really worth it. They are already fast and you can put slow killy units in it.

I doubt they have deep strike, otherwise it would have been mentioned in the rules preview.

 0XFallen wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Points will determine their value - but its hard not to bristle at the rules creep.

The more I look at it the more angry I get. Which may be irrational - but a unit of 10 moving over a vehicle is on to do 6-7 mortal wounds? What on earth are you thinking, are you even thinking at all?

Why on earth does a unit with 12" -1 AP flamers "also" throw out 3 S5 AP-1 attacks in melee? Very likely with deep strike because flying?

In practicality they wont use their melee much, especially the grenades. They die really fast and are glasscannons. If they deepstrike they wont move over any unit and melee is very unlikely. Putting them in a transport is not really worth it. They are already fast and you can put slow killy units in it.

The rules are split between two different loadouts but with 5 shot horde clearing weapons and 3+ for a MW per model against vehicals 5+vrs everything else these units are starting to seem like they are going to need a high points cost to not be rediculous as they aren't exactly a pushover to kill with 2W and almost always decieding what they charge and fly charging is probably a good idea for wrap and trap to keep them alive.

Ice_can wrote:

 0XFallen wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Points will determine their value - but its hard not to bristle at the rules creep.

The more I look at it the more angry I get. Which may be irrational - but a unit of 10 moving over a vehicle is on to do 6-7 mortal wounds? What on earth are you thinking, are you even thinking at all?

Why on earth does a unit with 12" -1 AP flamers "also" throw out 3 S5 AP-1 attacks in melee? Very likely with deep strike because flying?

In practicality they wont use their melee much, especially the grenades. They die really fast and are glasscannons. If they deepstrike they wont move over any unit and melee is very unlikely. Putting them in a transport is not really worth it. They are already fast and you can put slow killy units in it.

The rules are split between two different loadouts but with 5 shot horde clearing weapons and 3+ for a MW per model against vehicals 5+vrs everything else these units are starting to seem like they are going to need a high points cost to not be rediculous as they aren't exactly a pushover to kill with 2W and almost always decieding what they charge and fly charging is probably a good idea for wrap and trap to keep them alive.

That grenade rule difference from Swooping Hawks is huge. Hawks roll a number of dice based on the target unit (limit of up to the Hawks' model count) so a single vehicle is only going to take a single MW on a single roll of 6.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I doubt they have deep strike, otherwise it would have been mentioned in the rules preview.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a unit with a jump pack not get some kind of deep strike rule.

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I doubt they have deep strike, otherwise it would have been mentioned in the rules preview.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a unit with a jump pack not get some kind of deep strike rule.

Oh yeah? I checked!

And you're right. 2W, 2A, 12 inch flamers that ignore cover, and deep strike. *Looks at raptors*

These things better be expensive.

Tyel wrote:
Points will determine their value - but its hard not to bristle at the rules creep.

It really bothers me that 8th edition has gotten to the point that a 10 man unit (yeah, unit size assumption, but...) can generate 50 shots. And if they do indeed deep strike, its functionally unstoppable, and then they pew-pew enemies into submission. Not from the strength 3 shots, but from the unending dice rolls.

And once you factor in rerolls and the hit/wound/save system... maybe its me, but given that there are probably a couple dozen units on the table, if resolving a single unit's actions for the turn can result in rolling (including rerolls) more than a 100 dice, you've gone and done something stupid with game design. At this point GW is deliberating wasting people's time as the central game gimmick. Instead, weapon stats should be short tables base on target toughness and the number of models in the shooting unit- just remove X number of enemy models. It would probably cut game times by at least a quarter, rather than constantly rolling and re-rolling those buckets of dice- and all the rerolls push more and more to a predictable result anyway.

Ice_can wrote:

Kdash wrote:
The way I see it, these new units will be in the 75-85 point range, keeping them in line with/making the slightly more expensive than the current cost of Infiltrators. I wouldn’t be surprised if they come out at the same points cost as Infiltrators.

It is going to be interesting to see how admech appear on the table once all these releases are complete. I have the feeling that it is going to make a lot of people very salty when they start to compare the units to existing ones.

If it's a minum of 5 models for that price these things are going to be spammed hard I suspect, comparing them to a number of similar models they are worth more than 20 points each easily.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if it were 25ppm for the Flamer dudes. A big block of 10 dishing out 9d6 -1AP autohits that ignore cover, then the capacity to deal some hurt in melee as well would be pretty insane at much less.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
75-85pts would be a steal, even ignoring their melee capabilities. They've got better than average guns & 2 wounds.

I'd honestly be suprised if the unit doesn't cost over 100pts.

Whilst I agree, that if they are that cheap, then they will likely get spammed, but, at the end of the day they are essentially just Infiltrators with +4” movement, double the range of the weapon and grenades, at the expense of a Taser Goad/Power Sword. (Shooty ones)

The Flamer/melee ones will likely be slightly more expensive, but, likely by no more than 5 points a model imo. Melee weapons with any form of AP always tend to pay a premium, regardless of whether they are actually “useful” or not.

GW are going to want these to sell and want them to be on the table, and I expect they will be in 5-man squads, as the photos they’ve used in the article shows 5 per unit. It’s possible that it’ll be 5-10 per unit, but, I also wouldn’t be surprised if it is just a flat 5.
I firmly believe, that these will be at a similar point cost to Infiltrators – if they are something like 25 points a model, then I don’t think you’ll see them on the table in a “standard” or “meta” list.

(note, that I don’t play admech, nor do I intend to)

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I doubt they have deep strike, otherwise it would have been mentioned in the rules preview.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a unit with a jump pack not get some kind of deep strike rule.

Oh yeah? I checked!

And you're right. 2W, 2A, 12 inch flamers that ignore cover, and deep strike. *Looks at raptors*

These things better be expensive.

To be fair, Raptors aren't good even with these existing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I doubt they have deep strike, otherwise it would have been mentioned in the rules preview.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a unit with a jump pack not get some kind of deep strike rule.

Oh yeah? I checked!

And you're right. 2W, 2A, 12 inch flamers that ignore cover, and deep strike. *Looks at raptors*

These things better be expensive.

To be fair, Raptors aren't good even with these existing.

No kidding. That was my point.