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Dudeface wrote:

Icegoat wrote:
There is no second run people have latched onto something that is totally untrue. Why people are now back pedalling and saying oh there will be a second run and oh dont worry there will be buts to buy on ebay I just dont understand. Are you so blinded to see that GW has totally betrayed its customers on this one. The lies about we have made loads the holding back of stock for their own website it's a massive disgrace. And fools are still lapping it up and making excuses for them. Crazy.

At the end of the day, it doesnt really matter though does it? People can and will do what they like, the overly emotive language you use is worthy of a B movie scene.

No need to insult B-movies like that, Dudeface - this ranting wouldn't even make it into The Room...

 Overread wrote:
As for your local not discounting you further ontop of the discount Indomitus already offers, honestly that just sounds like sour grapes from you. Especially considering even major 3rd party retailers have lowered or removed their GW discount. Stores lost out on months of sales and suffered supply issues and such. Maybe you kept buying warhammer from your local during the lockdown ,but you can bet casual walk-in purchases went down and things like opportunistic sales of card game packs and tournament card boxes (Eg booster draft) all went down and are likely going to remain down for a considerable period of time until stores can do gaming again. Heck considering how many stores rely heavily on card games they are likely really suffering; esp when Wizards is pushing more and more for their new online option.

While I agree some of what was described seems a bit dodgy, the reaction seems disproportionate for, what, £25 at most?

 Arbitrator wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I don't think the mess is in any way intentional by GW....I take it as clownery all the way.

Perhaps GW could offer Blood of The Phoenix box sets to those that missed out

At least people remember Blood of the Phoenix.

I hear the Wrath and Ruin box sets have weekly counselling sessions.

As someone who only has Nurgle Daemons at the minute, I keep looking a W&R and thinking about picking one up - but I should get closer to up-to-date with my Nurgle Daemons first. Which means 20 Plaguebearers as a starting point.

Seabass wrote:

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
Given Covid I understand people not going down to their FLGS (if they are even currently open) to stand around with a load of other people but the bigger independent stockists had dual problems in that their allocations were smaller than expected and their websites ground to a halt due to traffic around 10am. This was the case with Element, Firestorm and plenty of others. The allocations were so low that many did not offer their 10 to 20% discount on the box. What shocked me most was the anger from a lot of people accusing the stores of profiteering by not offering a discount like they are entitled to it.

at the risk of sounding completely incendiary, I would offer that if there is one thing the gaming community is known for, specifically the social gaming industry is known for, it's being incredibly entitled.

Someone said it once, and I believe it to be true: Wizards of the Coast could put a $5.00 bill in every one of the packs they sell and the consumers would bitch about it because it wasn't $10.00.

As so many have noted, I really do think there will be plenty of boxes available. With this second run cooking up (if indeed that's what it is) and the number of independent stockers carrying them, I really do think that if you want one, you will be able to get one. It may not be on the 25th, but you will get one.

I really also don't think that GW could accurately gauge the results of this preorder. I honestly think they probably analyzed and determined they had enough of them. There were a lot of variables that were up against them on this. I would imagine just gauging the impact of a frozen/shut down economy in a global pandemic, and its effect on people buying luxury goods (which, during any economic decline, consumption of non-necessary goods typically decline) would have been an almost impossible variable to account for. Add to that the Warhammer 40,000 is far and away more popular than its ever been before, and you have two very conflicting, very difficult to gauge variables right there. I think when they launched they felt like their ca% was probably in the upper 30's and when it launched they found out that their allocation was wrong and they didn't make anywhere near enough and while their sellthrough was likely 100% their actual market penetration with this product was probably far below expectations. But it's very hard for me to pin that on GW alone.

these are, after all, very interesting times we live in.

Being entitled to better deals is a good thing to be entitled for. If the entire hobby community stood up and demanded cheaper plastic and acted with their wallets.... we'd get cheaper plastic.

Certainly better than the people who feel entitled that every character has to look like them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Yeah seriously, why would EVERYONE who plays 40K want this Indomitus box set? Its only Space Marines and Necrons. Order the 9th edition rulebook and play with any of the excellent armies besides the dudes in blue and the resurrecting robots. Alot of unnecessary drama in this thread honestly. ill bet if half the winers on this thread actually started calling around the local 40K game stores and put in a pre order they might see it sooner rather than later anyways.

There's a reason why GW wants literally everyone to have a space marine army


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

Seabass wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Icegoat wrote:
There is no second run people have latched onto something that is totally untrue.

there are shops who already take pre-orders for a second run shipped on August, so something must be there, if it is really another production run or just somehting that is already on stock but meant to be shipped later or the real 2-player starter set is something we don't know yet

and GW is constantly lying to the costumer, but people just don't care, because GW is still seen as the friendly garage-company start-up that must be forgiven because they don't have figured it out yet

Do you even really understand what you're saying here? GW is considered a friendly garage startup?

Just, no.

I have never seen a game do so well by a community, that by all standards I can imagine, is objectively hated by the (at least mostly) vocal community on the internet?

Just, no. It's ok if you're upset you didn't get what you wanted (or maybe you did, I don't know) but pretending that people are looking favorably upon GW is clearly bereft of any observation of the community reaction to this.

there are some bubbles around that see GW as an evil Megacorp and/or 40k as a bad game

"the community" is different, switch the bubble and GW is the friendly Start-Up that still need time to learn how to write rules or to proper calculate the demand of Box-Sets, so people just need to be patient and keep buying so that GW is there long enough to figure those things out and get better

same as there are those bubbles that GW never did anything wrong and it was the evil community that caused games to fail, as well as those that consider 40k to be the best possible SciFi game that could be made as perfect balance is unachievable anyway

some of those folks are also here on dakka, others can be found on FB or Reddit (there were those nice discussions here that GW needs time to learn from bad written rules in 8th as if this was their first try on a SciFi game at all) but this part of the community is larger than the one who thinks of evil megacorps or bad written ruls, hence why GW can make that much money

it is part of their marketing and advertising, this is Nu-GW after all and they have nothing to do with old evil Kirby-GW and not even know anything about the games/rules that were made before (and it works very well)

PS: and I don't care, I learned my lesson long time ago and will never ever again buy into a new game (neither physical nor digital) in pre-order or start playing on release day

I mean, GW is hardly a megacorp. But it's a big enough corp to be utterly amoral. It exists for shareholder profit, and we're the product, not the consumer.


Also, like, companies have millions upon millions to self promote and talk themselves up and hundreds to thousands of randos who leap at the chance to defend them for any reason for no returns. Gotta have a few people who take a hardline stance against them and don't forgive them for anything they do.

stratigo wrote:
If the entire hobby community stood up and demanded cheaper plastic and acted with their wallets.... we'd get cheaper plastic.

Not necessarily, or at least that might not be all we got. We might get cheaper plastics; we might also see specialist games being dropped. We might see the new TV shows being dropped; Forgeworld; the volume of BL books etc.... Free online apps like the Warscroll builder might be removed. Just denying a company money won't make them keep doing what they do cheaper; most companies will cut excess outlaying projects and focus on their core product and market first.

GW might also not deduce that price is the issue and might start to adjust other things; perhaps they'll cut army sizes dramatically so that instead of what we now see at 2K points; we'd see equivalent 500 point armies being the "main" focus of the game instead.


Part of what lets GW do a lot of what they do are the profits they generate, very directly so because GW doesn't produce new models and develop new lines and new factory space with loans. GW's expansion of what they offer us is purely done with the profits and excess they generate being ploughed back into the company. And sure they also take that profit home for themselves and shareholders as well. However if you take a company that has a policy of not using loans and deny them profits then that's going to eat into what they can invest into. It's unlikely that skilled staff and key position staff would welcome pay cuts so that means GW would likely start making product and investment cuts first.

We all love GW's current release rate and increased game support; that that goes hand in hand with their profits rising is no accident.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Yeah seriously, why would EVERYONE who plays 40K want this Indomitus box set? Its only Space Marines and Necrons. Order the 9th edition rulebook and play with any of the excellent armies besides the dudes in blue and the resurrecting robots. Alot of unnecessary drama in this thread honestly. ill bet if half the winers on this thread actually started calling around the local 40K game stores and put in a pre order they might see it sooner rather than later anyways.

Because they made it the de facto starter set, by not even hinting at the release date for another starter they turned this into the launch starter. That's how we buy 40K we get the starter. Ever since 8th we expect the full BRB in there too. So they have basically punted it to the consumer as "this is the starter, we aren't calling it the starter but it is in every meaningful way." Buying the BRB is a very poor and disappointing substitute to getting some new plastic crack, stuff you can trade off or swap, etc or add to your army. I thought about the BRB but it's not going to fly. I am used to getting the starter on release day. So they have set it up as the effective starter and promised there are more than enough and everyone can have one, plus if you miss out it is not a case of just get the basic starter there is NO other option and nothing slated to release for months to plug the gap. So everyone I know who is into 40K wants this. If they haven't got it they feel extremely p***ed off and cheated because they have not been able to get the starter for the new edition on release day like they always did. It's a colossal, titanic own goal by GW that has angered a massive swathe of their customer base.

 harlokin wrote:
GW are apparently evil geniuses who want to help scalpers by making Indomitus great value, but not producing an unlimited number of the boxes. Then they are also the idiots who made Blood of The Phoenix, which was overpriced and full of useless, reheated gak.

The only sane conclusion is that GW are conspiring with Icegoat, to give him something to vent his spleen over.

Again, I don't know why you see this as something binary. GW can commit to both shady business practices and be dumb at the same time.

Though I warrant BotP was more a market test that anything else. See if they actually can charge literally anything and people will still buy it.



And ultimately, what's the difference to you if GW commits an action out of stupidity or because they're trying to manipulate you? They still commit the action

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or is it all just manufactured outrage for reasons best known to himself?

There's nothing manufactured about the outrage people are feeling for missing out on this box.

Of course I i did not buy one of these foul sets. I said from the start I'm not jumping on the anti consumer fomo hype train just to be disappointed like so many thousand others are now. My necron army lays moldy waiting for the day GW actual releases something properly. This is a disgusting way of doing buisness. It only hurts the end user. All the scum shills scalpers and bot farmers are happy but most going into their flgs or trying to buy honestly from GWs own website have been completely left out and hope it a totally puts a lot of people off of this or stops them even getting started as this was the worst muck up I've ever seen

 Overread wrote:

stratigo wrote:
If the entire hobby community stood up and demanded cheaper plastic and acted with their wallets.... we'd get cheaper plastic.

Not necessarily, or at least that might not be all we got. We might get cheaper plastics; we might also see specialist games being dropped. We might see the new TV shows being dropped; Forgeworld; the volume of BL books etc.... Free online apps like the Warscroll builder might be removed. Just denying a company money won't make them keep doing what they do cheaper; most companies will cut excess outlaying projects and focus on their core product and market first.

GW might also not deduce that price is the issue and might start to adjust other things; perhaps they'll cut army sizes dramatically so that instead of what we now see at 2K points; we'd see equivalent 500 point armies being the "main" focus of the game instead.


Part of what lets GW do a lot of what they do are the profits they generate, very directly so because GW doesn't produce new models and develop new lines and new factory space with loans. GW's expansion of what they offer us is purely done with the profits and excess they generate being ploughed back into the company. And sure they also take that profit home for themselves and shareholders as well. However if you take a company that has a policy of not using loans and deny them profits then that's going to eat into what they can invest into. It's unlikely that skilled staff and key position staff would welcome pay cuts so that means GW would likely start making product and investment cuts first.

We all love GW's current release rate and increased game support; that that goes hand in hand with their profits rising is no accident.

How much of GW's profits go back into the company in a way that improves the company (As in, not just stock buybacks)? No really I want to know. I suspect it isn't as much as goes to dividends and executive bonuses. But this actually might be something we can track. Anyone have GW's financials?

But yes, GW's response might be "feth you for daring stand up to us". But eventually they'd have to adjust the prices down or die.

stratigo wrote:

 Overread wrote:

stratigo wrote:
If the entire hobby community stood up and demanded cheaper plastic and acted with their wallets.... we'd get cheaper plastic.

Not necessarily, or at least that might not be all we got. We might get cheaper plastics; we might also see specialist games being dropped. We might see the new TV shows being dropped; Forgeworld; the volume of BL books etc.... Free online apps like the Warscroll builder might be removed. Just denying a company money won't make them keep doing what they do cheaper; most companies will cut excess outlaying projects and focus on their core product and market first.

GW might also not deduce that price is the issue and might start to adjust other things; perhaps they'll cut army sizes dramatically so that instead of what we now see at 2K points; we'd see equivalent 500 point armies being the "main" focus of the game instead.


Part of what lets GW do a lot of what they do are the profits they generate, very directly so because GW doesn't produce new models and develop new lines and new factory space with loans. GW's expansion of what they offer us is purely done with the profits and excess they generate being ploughed back into the company. And sure they also take that profit home for themselves and shareholders as well. However if you take a company that has a policy of not using loans and deny them profits then that's going to eat into what they can invest into. It's unlikely that skilled staff and key position staff would welcome pay cuts so that means GW would likely start making product and investment cuts first.

We all love GW's current release rate and increased game support; that that goes hand in hand with their profits rising is no accident.

How much of GW's profits go back into the company in a way that improves the company (As in, not just stock buybacks)? No really I want to know. I suspect it isn't as much as goes to dividends and executive bonuses. But this actually might be something we can track. Anyone have GW's financials?

But yes, GW's response might be "feth you for daring stand up to us". But eventually they'd have to adjust the prices down or die.

And by the time they adjust prices we might have far less intricate models; far less range and perhaps less in general.

AS for the finances they publish them every year publicly - It's somewhere on the webste, but if you google you should be able to find the various shareholder meetings where they are shown. In fact oddly Warhammer fans online actually pay attention to them WAY more than almost any other fanbase.

As for an example, last year they spent over £9million on a new factory and land in Nottingham to increase production; meanwhile they also gave their entire staff a bonus due to sales (it was something like £1-2 thousand if I recall right). In general you can track their profits and what gets put back and what goes out into pure profits. It's all aggregate numbers for the shareholders so it doesn't go into fine detail of "this kit sold the best and this army is doing badly"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Icegoat wrote:
Of course I i did not buy one of these foul sets. I said from the start I'm not jumping on the anti consumer fomo hype train just to be disappointed like so many thousand others are now. My necron army lays moldy waiting for the day GW actual releases something properly. This is a disgusting way of doing buisness. It only hurts the end user. All the scum shills scalpers and bot farmers are happy but most going into their flgs or trying to buy honestly from GWs own website have been completely left out and hope it a totally puts a lot of people off of this or stops them even getting started as this was the worst muck up I've ever seen

Have you considered that perhaps its time to put GW aside and do something else? Considering that you also hate Age of Sigmar as well. Right now I just don't see what YOU get from the hobby. Where's your joy, fun, engagement, entertainment.

stratigo wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
GW are apparently evil geniuses who want to help scalpers by making Indomitus great value, but not producing an unlimited number of the boxes. Then they are also the idiots who made Blood of The Phoenix, which was overpriced and full of useless, reheated gak.

The only sane conclusion is that GW are conspiring with Icegoat, to give him something to vent his spleen over.

Again, I don't know why you see this as something binary. GW can commit to both shady business practices and be dumb at the same time.

Though I warrant BotP was more a market test that anything else. See if they actually can charge literally anything and people will still buy it.


And ultimately, what's the difference to you if GW commits an action out of stupidity or because they're trying to manipulate you? They still commit the action

It doesn't matter to me, I am commenting on the 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' line of argument being pursued ad nauseum by a selection of vintners, who seemingly have no stake in the hobby other than to perpetuate drama and fauxrage on forums.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This all reminds me of The Narcissist's Prayer:

That didn't happen. (GW won't make too few.)
And if it did, it wasn't that bad. (There's plenty even if some big stores got less than they asked for.)
And if it was, that's not a big deal. (What's the problem? It's just plastic toys, you nut)
And if it is, that's not my fault. (Coronavirus is at fault for halting production, not GW!)
And if it was, I didn't mean it. (GW didn't anticipate demand / GW made an honest mistake.)
And if I did...
You deserved it.

You should really warm up before attempting a stretch like that.

stratigo wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
GW are apparently evil geniuses who want to help scalpers by making Indomitus great value, but not producing an unlimited number of the boxes. Then they are also the idiots who made Blood of The Phoenix, which was overpriced and full of useless, reheated gak.

The only sane conclusion is that GW are conspiring with Icegoat, to give him something to vent his spleen over.

Again, I don't know why you see this as something binary. GW can commit to both shady business practices and be dumb at the same time.

Though I warrant BotP was more a market test that anything else. See if they actually can charge literally anything and people will still buy it.



And ultimately, what's the difference to you if GW commits an action out of stupidity or because they're trying to manipulate you? They still commit the action

I don't understand why people think GW is intentionally enabling scalpers. That makes no sense. GW would much rather have happy customers than happy scalpers. . . and enabling scalpers means someone ELSE is getting rich on their work, which we all know makes GW gnash their teeth. I wouldn't be surprised to see GW move to in-store pre orders only at some point, or some sort of verification system.

With regard to the ordering from GW or FLGS, I would add there was NO WAY I was going to preorder from my FLGS. In the past i've seen GW cancel pre-orders from the FLGS to fulfill preorders from their own stores too many times. I was execited for this box, and I didn't want to get an email next weekend saying my order has been canceled due to shortage. And pre-ordering from the local GW is a crap shoot, since they just have you use their computers to pre-order. I'm very glad I didn't do that, I heard they only got three people through the line before it crashed.

 argonak wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
GW are apparently evil geniuses who want to help scalpers by making Indomitus great value, but not producing an unlimited number of the boxes. Then they are also the idiots who made Blood of The Phoenix, which was overpriced and full of useless, reheated gak.

The only sane conclusion is that GW are conspiring with Icegoat, to give him something to vent his spleen over.

Again, I don't know why you see this as something binary. GW can commit to both shady business practices and be dumb at the same time.

Though I warrant BotP was more a market test that anything else. See if they actually can charge literally anything and people will still buy it.



And ultimately, what's the difference to you if GW commits an action out of stupidity or because they're trying to manipulate you? They still commit the action

I don't understand why people think GW is intentionally enabling scalpers. That makes no sense. GW would much rather have happy customers than happy scalpers. . . and enabling scalpers means someone ELSE is getting rich on their work, which we all know makes GW gnash their teeth. I wouldn't be surprised to see GW move to in-store pre orders only at some point, or some sort of verification system.

With regard to the ordering from GW or FLGS, I would add there was NO WAY I was going to preorder from my FLGS. In the past i've seen GW cancel pre-orders from the FLGS to fulfill preorders from their own stores too many times. I was execited for this box, and I didn't want to get an email next weekend saying my order has been canceled due to shortage. And pre-ordering from the local GW is a crap shoot, since they just have you use their computers to pre-order. I'm very glad I didn't do that, I heard they only got three people through the line before it crashed.

Because GW don't care. They wanted a frenzy over it and dropped enough boxes that they moved X boxes at Y price they don't care if the cash came from 1 person or from 100 000.

If they wanted to show they *do* care they'd release a statement saying "hey, here's an open pre order list, same package but now the price is $200." and everyone will be happy. Those who missed the 15 minite window of super cheap can still get it at a good price, the scalpers will we stuck with kits they'll have to move for far less than expected and plenty more people will get the kits.

Unless you are a GMFY type of person you shouldn't care that others got your "limited release" kit at a slightly later date. It'll be like people buying early access to computer games. The fact you get the same game as me but a week later doesn't diminish my game.

mrFickle has it, and nobody listened. I'd be surprised if the contents of the box cost GW as much as £40. They sell to retail at just under 60% of the RRP, so it cost the retailers £75.

What makes a character worth £25, or a plastic tank "worth" £50? That's GW's choice, to find a market niche that none of their competitors will - or even can - compete in. Nobody else sells chaotic birdmen, steampunk dwarf pirates, or skeletal space robots. Few of the other companies making minis can do the dynamic, tiptoe sculpts surrounded by energy swirls. Or did you think that was just GW showing off?

Rule no 1 for small businesses (and GW are still not huge in the Big Scheme of things - probably about the size of ONE of Hasbro's IP lines) is "don't compete on price, the big boys will squash you". GW's weakness was it's heavy infrastructure - at one point late in Kirby's reign, back-office and store rental costs were eating 50% of revenue.

So GW Marketing's job is to use all the usual tricks of late capitalism to persuade up to want THEIR stuff, not generic plastic elfmen. Hype, limited access to the product, telling you that what may be as little as £25 worth of plastic and paper is actually worth £400-500 and they're doing you a favour by selling it to you - ok some of you - for £125. The chatty painting videos, even the games themselves, are there to flog you more stuff.

Now I like GW's stuff, and I use their paints a lot. I don't grudge them trying to make a living. Their prices ARE relatively high, although I've been saying for nearly 20 years that a box of GW troops is a good-value skirmish gaming force in itself. Each of us has to judge the value and utility for ourselves.

My next project will be space dwarfs for a 40k 2nd ed project. Probably Wargames Atlantic for the troops and GW Kharadron for the exo-suits.

 argonak wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
GW are apparently evil geniuses who want to help scalpers by making Indomitus great value, but not producing an unlimited number of the boxes. Then they are also the idiots who made Blood of The Phoenix, which was overpriced and full of useless, reheated gak.

The only sane conclusion is that GW are conspiring with Icegoat, to give him something to vent his spleen over.

Again, I don't know why you see this as something binary. GW can commit to both shady business practices and be dumb at the same time.

Though I warrant BotP was more a market test that anything else. See if they actually can charge literally anything and people will still buy it.



And ultimately, what's the difference to you if GW commits an action out of stupidity or because they're trying to manipulate you? They still commit the action

I don't understand why people think GW is intentionally enabling scalpers. That makes no sense. GW would much rather have happy customers than happy scalpers. . . and enabling scalpers means someone ELSE is getting rich on their work, which we all know makes GW gnash their teeth. I wouldn't be surprised to see GW move to in-store pre orders only at some point, or some sort of verification system.

With regard to the ordering from GW or FLGS, I would add there was NO WAY I was going to preorder from my FLGS. In the past i've seen GW cancel pre-orders from the FLGS to fulfill preorders from their own stores too many times. I was execited for this box, and I didn't want to get an email next weekend saying my order has been canceled due to shortage. And pre-ordering from the local GW is a crap shoot, since they just have you use their computers to pre-order. I'm very glad I didn't do that, I heard they only got three people through the line before it crashed.

GW doesn't want to enable scalpers. But if a side effect of their policy of hype and FOMO enables scalpers, then GW also only cares minimally. What GW cares about is that the bundle sells, which, hoy boy it did, and that every future bundle sells, and they can subtly (or not) point to this bundle and go "And you don't want to miss out like you did last time". Scalpers are just a side effect GW puts relatively minimal effort into dealing with.

Responding to Shooter:

I am here because I still have an interest, and would very much like to see an edition with more depth that I would enjoy playing again.

40k has never been an especially deep ruleset, from what I hear and from my own experiences. But 8th was what really did it for me. I enjoyed 5th, and 7th when me and my opponents' forces were much more comparable to most of the edition. I've also played many other games since starting 40k, and the game really is lacking in key areas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:

 auticus wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

 auticus wrote:
I mean my area is going ga ga over it. They are pumping money hand over fist at GW. Its amazing.

Caveat most of those guys don't care if they get mudhole stomped by ITC lists, they think thats equally "fun". The socialization aspect of the game (the fact that every week in a non rona environment there are 20-30 40k guys piled into the room) is largely why they gleefully set their money on fire and throw it at GW.

I don't understand that type of thinking. If socializing is the priority, why play 40k? Why not a cheaper game? Why not just hang out over a couple beers?

Because they like the models? Because they like the setting? Maybe, and this is a crazy thought, they actually like 40K as a game?

You misunderstand me. If socializing is the priority, not gaming, why bother with any game? Is it impossible for some folks to converse without chucking dice?

What's to like in 40k's gameplay, anyway? It's an exercise in rolling dice and removing models. 7th was more fun than this, despite the massive imbalance. Or maybe the brain-dead aspect is desirable, in our checked-out, lazy world.

For some people? Yes it is difficult for them to interact without the context of a game.

The very idea that the best way to interact is over beers at a pub is actually kind of old fashioned and separately gross. And if this is actually your primary form of interaction, it won't be cheaper either.

I used pubs as an example because it's a common one here on dakka. Socializing costs nothing, nor are activities or refreshments required to converse.

This isn't to say that social activities have no value. But I do find the concept of investing heavily in a game so expensive in terms of money, as well as time and effort, while caring little for or about the gameplay, nonsensical. There are far cheaper and better written games out there for simply hanging out than Warhammer.

I don't know what went wrong not the GW side, but obviously something did. Given all the various reports it seems like a perfect storm of events going wrong:

1. Production bottlenecks: Given reports of a second distribution, it seems that GW doesn't expect to get all of their Indomitus Boxes ready to ship to stores/customers for July 25. The slashes in allocations followed by the 'late August' allocations would make sense if that was the case. Especially if the reports that they produced enough stock to make boxes equal the first 2 months of Dark Imperium sales are turn.
2. Forecast Failure: As mentioned above, using Dark Imperium, the Sister of Battle Army box, or Shadowspear as the starting point for production of this box may have made sense at GW HQ, but it was wrong. This box is an insane value. Beautiful new models for two armies and a new edition rulebook for a price that would have still been good for half the contents without the rules. People are flocking to this like moths to the fire.
3. FOMO, Scaplers, and the Buy-Now decide-later mentality: Despite the price tag, players are scooping this up at an insane rate. Even in this very thread there are people who picked up the box because fo the value despite not really wanting it. How can you produce the right amount of a box when you hear people saying things like 'there were 2 in my queue due to website issues, but I figured I buy them anyway and figure out what to do with the second', 'I only really wanted the rulebook, but I'll either start an army or sell those models off', or 'I think I'll start Necrons, maybe'.

As for a second run of Indomitus, I doubt there is such a thing. There may be uncompleted production due the COVID-19 that explains the late August shipment, but not a decision to make more. To produce more boxes than the original stock plan would require three things that make it impractical:

1. Models: While GW can produce more models, that will require them to change the production schedule and ship those models around the world to their various markets. That takes months and would disrupt their production plan for other models. If those models were produced for other kits, they could repurpose at the cost of that's products production.
2. Limited Edition Rulebook: Once the original production run is completed, which should have been very close to the kit production target, they would need a new production run from China. I know from my work it takes about two months by boat to get a shipment from China to the central United States. Unless they substitute the standard rulebook for the limited edition, more production is impossible.
3. Boxes: They would need more Indomitus Boxes with all the internal packaging, including the pretty printout. I don't know if they use a local printer or purchase boxes in mass from China, but again we are dealing with needing a new box run since it would have been insane to purchase much more boxes than their original production run target.

So, I'm not holding my breath for more Indomitus boxes in the future. GW may pivot to something similar, or a web only box without pretty packaging, but the Trade Partners are probably stuck with the original print run quantities.

 Momotaro wrote:
mrFickle has it, and nobody listened. I'd be surprised if the contents of the box cost GW as much as £40. They sell to retail at just under 60% of the RRP, so it cost the retailers £75.

What makes a character worth £25, or a plastic tank "worth" £50? That's GW's choice, to find a market niche that none of their competitors will - or even can - compete in. Nobody else sells chaotic birdmen, steampunk dwarf pirates, or skeletal space robots. Few of the other companies making minis can do the dynamic, tiptoe sculpts surrounded by energy swirls. Or did you think that was just GW showing off?

Rule no 1 for small businesses (and GW are still not huge in the Big Scheme of things - probably about the size of ONE of Hasbro's IP lines) is "don't compete on price, the big boys will squash you". GW's weakness was it's heavy infrastructure - at one point late in Kirby's reign, back-office and store rental costs were eating 50% of revenue.

So GW Marketing's job is to use all the usual tricks of late capitalism to persuade up to want THEIR stuff, not generic plastic elfmen. Hype, limited access to the product, telling you that what may be as little as £25 worth of plastic and paper is actually worth £400-500 and they're doing you a favour by selling it to you - ok some of you - for £125. The chatty painting videos, even the games themselves, are there to flog you more stuff.

Now I like GW's stuff, and I use their paints a lot. I don't grudge them trying to make a living. Their prices ARE relatively high, although I've been saying for nearly 20 years that a box of GW troops is a good-value skirmish gaming force in itself. Each of us has to judge the value and utility for ourselves.

My next project will be space dwarfs for a 40k 2nd ed project. Probably Wargames Atlantic for the troops and GW Kharadron for the exo-suits.

Half some one noticed haha. Let’s all be honest we don’t it GW products because they are really good value or they are better than their competitors. We buy it cos we like it and it’s a luxury. The market it’s in produces a sense of selfishness, like when people were panic buying toilet roll. Andrex could have added 5 pounds on the price of 12 big rolls and people would have complained but they still want to wiped their bums. Toilet roll isn’t a luxury but at the time when people thought it they weren’t going to be able to get it all of a sudden it was. So they bought it fo them selves. And then they were limited to 3 packs per shop. So they still bought the max per shop. This only stopped when people realised we weren’t going to run out of toilet roll.

The only difference between toilet roll and Indomitus is that GW haven’t convinced us yet that it run out so there’s no need to buy as much as possible as quickly as possible. That and no one want a bolt rifle up the bun

But the shops were saying please stop buying al loo roll we running out GW LIED multiple times that they had produced LOADS . Well that was a blatant and malicious lie. They would not have had to pull flgs stock if they produced loads. They truly have destroyed the community and any good will with this terrible dishonest anti consumer release. I hope they realise just how much damage they have done to the hobby. And I'm not quitting this hobby until I see what they do with humans in AOS.

My local store still has several boxes left. That it is sold out online doesn't mean it is sold out everywhere.

@mrFickle - exactly!

@stratigo. The point about all these tricks - blind packs, limited offers or bulk deals (Indomitus) is that it passes risk to soneone else - not the FLGS, but the customer.

GW don't care that they may have flooded the market with several million Necrons that nobody really wants. They and the FLGS had a really good Saturday, and they'll have a really busy couple of weeks shifting stock. Then their only job is to count the cash.

After that, it's up to the buyers to store everything, try to price it and sell it on. Potential owners will have to do the hard work of finding the models, comparing prices, and paying out. Stock levels, storage, investment, logistics for a couple of million units are all somebody else's problem.

@totalfailure I'd be pretty salty about it too. It was a great deal compared to their usual prices, and having to rely on the eBay crowd is a poor show. Until people stop letting a toy company jerk them around like puppets though, they're not going to stop doing it.

Gw hasnjt flooded market with too many necrons. Whole polnt of limited is to avoid that so that they can sell new necrons at full price rather than discount.

If the box would not be limited then they would saturate market with those models making selling of full price kits hard

Seeing a lot more "manufactured outrage" from the people getting outraged about people who are disappointed they couldn't get a box if they didn't order within 15 minutes than the opposite.

This was obviously a screw-up on GW's end. It doesn't really matter in the larger scheme of things whether it was just incompetence or intentional under-production ala Nintendo to drive brand hysteria. The result is disappointed customers, and it takes a special kind of myopia to criticize fans for being disappointed, especially when your orientation is pro-GW.

tneva82 wrote:
Gw hasnjt flooded market with too many necrons. Whole polnt of limited is to avoid that so that they can sell new necrons at full price rather than discount.

If the box would not be limited then they would saturate market with those models making selling of full price kits hard

The amount of people interested in the necron half of the starter are much less than the number interested in the SM half.

Which is also part of the trick. It's a great deal! Provided you have a use for both sides. I guarantee a lot of space marine players bought this at a bad deal, but have been conditioned to such impulsive purchasing habits by GW and society at large, and there's gonna be a lot of necron sprues sitting in closets or going for resale for reeeeeal cheap.

Icegoat wrote:
But the shops were saying please stop buying al loo roll we running out GW LIED multiple times that they had produced LOADS . Well that was a blatant and malicious lie. They would not have had to pull flgs stock if they produced loads. They truly have destroyed the community and any good will with this terrible dishonest anti consumer release. I hope they realise just how much damage they have done to the hobby. And I'm not quitting this hobby until I see what they do with humans in AOS.

Thing is, saying they've produced "loads" is accurate - the problem is that "loads" is a term with an undefined value. It isn't like they've said they've made a million copies, but only actually produced 10k, or something like that.

The LE version of the BRB, for example, has a stated produced quantity - 2k copies.

If we take last Sunday's article, they do say they've produced loads of copies - arguably accurate, depending on how you define loads - but they also clearly state it is limited in quantity, and once it is gone, it's gone.

Going back to the article announcing the pre-order date - and the two week order period, which now looks very misguided - they clearly state that "copies are available while stocks last".

Even the article from mid-June going through the contents states that they've "...made boatloads (literally)...", but even that points out it is a limited box, and that you'll need to get in there early to secure a copy.

I'm not certain where this "we've made enough for everyone" idea comes from, as every WHC article I've looked at discussing the contents of the box makes it very clear it is a limited run product.

So, tell me again, Icegoat - how were they lying?

tneva82 wrote:
Gw hasnjt flooded market with too many necrons. Whole polnt of limited is to avoid that so that they can sell new necrons at full price rather than discount.

If the box would not be limited then they would saturate market with those models making selling of full price kits hard

This doesn't feel too far off the mark. The demand for space marines is obviously going to be way higher than for Necrons, because everyone and their little cousin Timmy plays Space Marines, and almost nobody plays Necrons. So if you sold as many Space Marines halves of the box as people were willing to buy, you'd end up with thousands and thousands of Necron halves on ebay, which would depress prices on the new Necron kits for ages.

It is the problem with two-army boxes in a nutshell. One side - the Space Marine side - is always more wanted than the other side.

yukishiro1 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw hasnjt flooded market with too many necrons. Whole polnt of limited is to avoid that so that they can sell new necrons at full price rather than discount.

If the box would not be limited then they would saturate market with those models making selling of full price kits hard

This doesn't feel too far off the mark. The demand for space marines is obviously going to be way higher than for Necrons, because everyone and their little cousin Timmy plays Space Marines, and almost nobody plays Necrons. So if you sold as many Space Marines halves of the box as people were willing to buy, you'd end up with thousands and thousands of Necron halves on ebay, which would depress prices on the new Necron kits for ages.

It is the problem with two-army boxes in a nutshell. One side - the Space Marine side - is always more wanted than the other side.

To the benefit of GW's profit.

Of course GW could stop all this with just one email. But they haven’t. Its not like they don’t access dakka and reddit etc someone in the company will be looking at these comments.

Part of the build up to Indomitus was a new website and getting people to sign up to the mailing list. All the peices if the puzzle are there for them. And it’s not like they weren’t working this weekend.

I’m annoyed, I really wanted these models to start a necron army. Having come to the game last year I also don’t have a big rule book and held off from buying dark imperium and when 9th was announced I felt like my choices had been vindicated.

However i have seen some pretty shocking stuff from GW, such as spreading the rules for your army across 60-80 quids worth of books. And yet I still spent 100s on paint and brushes and whatever. It’s my choice. And I tell you 1 thing for sure, if we stopped buying it whoever owns it at the minute would sell the whole thing to a big game/toy maker. And yes it might be cheaper And more of it but would it be better? I doubt it. As consumer we often don’t stand to win unless we have a concise forum with our suppliers and I don’t see that here.

The only thing we should be doing to make the commodity element of the hobby better is not screwing each other over. So if anyone bought 3 with intent of putting 2 on eBay. Sell them for a small markup at least because some people will be much more upset about not getting one than me. Some kid might have been desperate to get one for their birthday. And also anyone who bought 3 to put 2 on eBay, if you every complain about GW and their sales tactics then you are a fething idiot and every time it hurts to open your wallet that pain is self inflicted

I mean, if you want to start a necron army, wait, like, a couple weeks after the kits drop. I guarantee you, you will get a deal that's even better than what the necron half offers

Icegoat wrote:
But the shops were saying please stop buying al loo roll we running out GW LIED multiple times that they had produced LOADS. Well that was a blatant and malicious lie. They would not have had to pull flgs stock if they produced loads. They truly have destroyed the community and any good will with this terrible dishonest anti consumer release. I hope they realise just how much damage they have done to the hobby.

In order:
Nope.
Nope. Boatloads, for example, is literally true. At least one went to Austrailia/Japan distribution, at least one went to North American Distribution, at least one more went to Britain/Europe distribution. Multiple boats, multiple loads.
Nope.
The 'community' (whatever you actually mean by that) is fine.
The release was very honest. Manipulative, but completely honest. And 'anti-consumer' actually has a meaning- it isn't just a buzzword.
None. The hobby isn't damaged because you couldn't get a box.

And I'm not quitting this hobby until I see what they do with humans in AOS.

See, if this really was all an anti-consumer lie, malicious, and community and hobby destroying, you should quit, regardless of what they might do with a non-existent faction in AoS at some vague point in a future that may never happen.
Declaring that you aren't renders all your 'outrage' false.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
Of course GW could stop all this with just one email. But they haven’t. Its not like they don’t access dakka and reddit etc someone in the company will be looking at these comments.

I'm completely lost at this point. What would they stop and what would they put in this magic email?