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The Tempus is really nice at the current price and provides that can't be charged except by flyers thing, but I'm sure not risking buying a FW model until after the overhaul.

Back to the heavy intercessors, yeah, okay, I'll grant holding the backfield objectives is a role to fill, but they aren't really bringing much new to the table vs intercessors or say tacticals in a rhino. I'm not gonna knock yet more unit variety, that's always better. But it's not like the marine codex lacked a unit that could do that role and be moderately tanky for 100-200pts.

People talking about primaris replacing old Marines, when heavy Intercessor have replaced regular Intercessors. T5, W3, S5 guns (with 3 versions) and a heavy weapon (with 3 versions). Sure it come down to point cost but if I played primaris I would take heavy Intercessors.

Jimbobbyish wrote:
People talking about primaris replacing old Marines, when heavy Intercessor have replaced regular Intercessors. T5, W3, S5 guns (with 3 versions) and a heavy weapon (with 3 versions). Sure it come down to point cost but if I played primaris I would take heavy Intercessors.

Someone done a math hammer, showing that the Heavy Intercessors are more efficient in killing new edition marines (everyone has 2W or more), if fighting hordes or most of 1W units, just take Aggressors.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Jimbobbyish wrote:
People talking about primaris replacing old Marines, when heavy Intercessor have replaced regular Intercessors. T5, W3, S5 guns (with 3 versions) and a heavy weapon (with 3 versions). Sure it come down to point cost but if I played primaris I would take heavy Intercessors.

Someone done a math hammer, showing that the Heavy Intercessors are more efficient in killing new edition marines (everyone has 2W or more), if fighting hordes or most of 1W units, just take Aggressors.

I'd like to see that maths because it just doesn't add up in my head. If we assume 5 heavys are 140-ish in points, that's 7 regular Intercessors. If you take the execu-whatever rifle on the heavies you get one shot at S5 AP-1 d2. That's 5×2/3×2/3×1/2=20/18=1.1 dead primaris. 7 Intercessors get 2 shots (bolter discipline) each at S4 AP -1 d1, that's 14×2/3×1/2×1/2=28/12=2.3 wounds which is basicalyy the same 1.1 dead primaris. Against 1w models that's double the dead models. That's also a larger footprint and more melee attacks. In favor of the heavies, they are t5 and 3w, meaning they die less. Finally that's a heavy weapon compared to a rapid fire. What i'm saying is, it isn't that black or white easy. And that's under the assumption of the points being accurate at 140, there's room for GW to mess up majorly in both directions

Cpt. Icanus wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Jimbobbyish wrote:
People talking about primaris replacing old Marines, when heavy Intercessor have replaced regular Intercessors. T5, W3, S5 guns (with 3 versions) and a heavy weapon (with 3 versions). Sure it come down to point cost but if I played primaris I would take heavy Intercessors.

Someone done a math hammer, showing that the Heavy Intercessors are more efficient in killing new edition marines (everyone has 2W or more), if fighting hordes or most of 1W units, just take Aggressors.

I'd like to see that maths because it just doesn't add up in my head. If we assume 5 heavys are 140-ish in points, that's 7 regular Intercessors. If you take the execu-whatever rifle on the heavies you get one shot at S5 AP-1 d2. That's 5×2/3×2/3×1/2=20/18=1.1 dead primaris. 7 Intercessors get 2 shots (bolter discipline) each at S4 AP -1 d1, that's 14×2/3×1/2×1/2=28/12=2.3 wounds which is basicalyy the same 1.1 dead primaris. Against 1w models that's double the dead models. That's also a larger footprint and more melee attacks. In favor of the heavies, they are t5 and 3w, meaning they die less. Finally that's a heavy weapon compared to a rapid fire. What i'm saying is, it isn't that black or white easy. And that's under the assumption of the points being accurate at 140, there's room for GW to mess up majorly in both directions

The conclusion chart of the math is here:
https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-space-marine-codex-preview/

I might be wrong on the statement of "Heavy Int are more effective at killing other marines compare to regular Int". Just an impression that their guns can one shot a new SM. They might be better at killing SM, but may not be better in efficiency of doing that, just comparable. But I think we can agree that if facing Orks, GSC, non Nidzilla Nidz, just taking regular and assault intercessors plus the Aggressors might be the better choice.

@Neophyte: that goonhammer article was a nice read and the numbers add up (variance vs. average i guess). Thanks.

Other question: Do we know for certain that Bladeguard vets will be available in numbers larger than 3? I'm planning on running a unit in an Impulsor, using Devout push to get them in melee after disembark. For this approach a unit of 3 is sufficient. If i want to run them on foot though, 9 wounds is a bit little, even with the 2+/4++...

Think they showed them in a unit of 5 on the preview video last weekend so hopefully they will. But who knows. The Light of Eltharion can get spells from the lord of Hysh in the new Lumineth battle tome and he’s not even a wizard!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes I know that’s been FAQ’d recently but they still made the mistake in the first place

Just some amusing points from my last game;

Salamander (opponent) vs White Scars (Me)

Narrow loss for me, some highlights;

New model syndrome on my brand spanking new Repulsor. Hit by 2 lascannons and he rolled double 6s for damage :(

Salamanders, and any Master Artisan chapter really, is REALLY good. The re-rolls on any small to medium sized unit or high strength single shot weapon is UNREAL. The above mentioned lascannons had 1 miss and 1 fail to wound that both passed on the re-roll.

Janky Aggressor saves in spades. His last flame aggressor charges my last bolt aggressor. Gets three wounds. I roll triple 6s for saves. I swing back, get three wounds, he rolls triple 6s for saves. Laughing ensued.

Bladeguard sergeant charges predator under assault doctrine and my chaplains aura (reroll wounds rolls in melee, white scars specific litany). 5 Attacks, 5 hits. 5+ to wound, with a reroll. 4 wounds, at -4 to save and D3. 12 wounds off the predator for the Bladeguard sergeant ALONE. We, uh, were surprised, but honestly it's not even THAT unlikely to stab 3-6 wounds off of a predator per turn and the smash Chaplain was there as back up anyways.

Chaplain w/relic Crozius, mantra of Strength and Mantra of strike off the head. 7 attacks, S7, -2AP, D5, reroll to wound rolls. Decided to YOLO and charge a Leviathan dreadnought last turn. 2+ to hit, 5+ to wound with reroll, 4+ invul. Managed to sneak 2 wounding hits through and smash 10 wounds off of the dread. Opponent wasn't happy seeing a second vehicle carved up in melee by a single model. The real kicker was the chaplains Absolver bolt pistol doing 2 damage when running in, that allowed the 10 he did in melee to kill him (He had 11 left at the start of the turn).

I can't wait to play my stormraven again out of tactical reserves. No more getting shot T1. What have you been putting in reserves yourself guys ?

 Carnage43 wrote:
Just some amusing points from my last game;

Salamander (opponent) vs White Scars (Me)

Narrow loss for me, some highlights;

New model syndrome on my brand spanking new Repulsor. Hit by 2 lascannons and he rolled double 6s for damage :(

Salamanders, and any Master Artisan chapter really, is REALLY good. The re-rolls on any small to medium sized unit or high strength single shot weapon is UNREAL. The above mentioned lascannons had 1 miss and 1 fail to wound that both passed on the re-roll.

Janky Aggressor saves in spades. His last flame aggressor charges my last bolt aggressor. Gets three wounds. I roll triple 6s for saves. I swing back, get three wounds, he rolls triple 6s for saves. Laughing ensued.

Bladeguard sergeant charges predator under assault doctrine and my chaplains aura (reroll wounds rolls in melee, white scars specific litany). 5 Attacks, 5 hits. 5+ to wound, with a reroll. 4 wounds, at -4 to save and D3. 12 wounds off the predator for the Bladeguard sergeant ALONE. We, uh, were surprised, but honestly it's not even THAT unlikely to stab 3-6 wounds off of a predator per turn and the smash Chaplain was there as back up anyways.

Chaplain w/relic Crozius, mantra of Strength and Mantra of strike off the head. 7 attacks, S7, -2AP, D5, reroll to wound rolls. Decided to YOLO and charge a Leviathan dreadnought last turn. 2+ to hit, 5+ to wound with reroll, 4+ invul. Managed to sneak 2 wounding hits through and smash 10 wounds off of the dread. Opponent wasn't happy seeing a second vehicle carved up in melee by a single model. The real kicker was the chaplains Absolver bolt pistol doing 2 damage when running in, that allowed the 10 he did in melee to kill him (He had 11 left at the start of the turn).

Good read! I have been enjoying my White Scars recently as well, personally I have found we are marines up until t3, then we become monsters! Lol.

Yeah, the reroll nonsense (on all marine sides) is why salamanders are changing to just reroll 1 wound roll per unit per phase in the next codex. Salamanders were the top army for marines back when 8th started, then a few months later people started experimenting with other stuff... but now its back to old reliable reroll Salamanders. So all those las hitting and wounding doesn't surprise me, the double 6 for dmg is unfortunate but thats all anyone can hope for when facing that stuff, hope he rolls low for dmg...

 godardc wrote:
I can't wait to play my stormraven again out of tactical reserves. No more getting shot T1. What have you been putting in reserves yourself guys ?

I have had good success with reserving eradicators. Though I have been reserving a 5 man scout squad every game lately. They arrive on turn 3 in my opponents deployment zone and do the last part of deploy scramblers and help with engage.

Hi. Quick question. Are people finding 10 or 5 man (and consequently 3/6 man of certain units) Primaris squads more useful this edition? I like the idea of running multiple 5 man (or 3man) squads but sometimes I feel that I need the larger squad sizes to survive my opponent’s shooting.

Of course this was prior to 9th when we mainly played games based on killing as many units as possible and getting victory points that way.

MSU's seems the way to go, allows for more board control.

BrianDavion wrote:
MSU's seems the way to go, allows for more board control.

Pretty much, if you don't have a reason to do otherwise. A large unit increases the value of certain buffs and stratagems, for example i prefer to run a 10 man squad of Assault Intercessors (BT) to benefit from litany of devine protection and fires of devotion. If it gets real bad with the blast weapon i might see myself reduce those to 9 guys, but never 5.as.it just doesn't pay off with the support characters. Regular Intercessors on the other hand, MSU all the way.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:

Pretty much, if you don't have a reason to do otherwise. A large unit increases the value of certain buffs and stratagems, for example i prefer to run a 10 man squad of Assault Intercessors (BT) to benefit from litany of devine protection and fires of devotion. If it gets real bad with the blast weapon i might see myself reduce those to 9 guys, but never 5.as.it just doesn't pay off with the support characters. Regular Intercessors on the other hand, MSU all the way.

Blast's second tier doesnt kick in until 11 models are in a unit. Going from 10 to 9 would not change anything.

I just read that on spykybits

Dark Angels: 1) +1 to hit if the unit did not move in this turn and 2) something about Combat Attrition, probably auto-pass.
White Scars: 1) can Charge after Advance or Fall Back and 2) can fire Assault with no penalty after an Advance move.
Space Wolves: 1) +1 to hit in melee if the unit charged, was charged or heroically intervened and 2) units with this tactic can heroically intervene as if they were characters.
Imperial Fists: 1) ignore Light Cover and 2) 2 (probably only 1, blame the wonky screenshot) additional hits with unmodified 6s with bolt weapons.
Crimson Fists: 1) +1 to hit when the target unit contains 5+ more models than this unit (VEHICLE counts as 5) and 2) 1 additional hit with unmodified 6s with bolt weapons.
Black Templars: 1) reroll Advance and Charge rolls and 2) 5+ feel no pain against mortal wounds.
Blood Angels: 1) +1 to wound when charging, charged or heroically intervening and 2) +1″ to Advance and Charge rolls.
Flesh Tearers: 1) +1 to wound when charging, charged or heroically intervening and 2) -1 AP on unmodified wound rolls of 6.
Iron Hands: 1) 6+ feel no pain and 2) double wounds on the damage chart.
Ultramarines: 1) +1 Leadership and 2) can shoot in a turn during which it Falls Back, but at -1 to hit.
Salamanders:1) you can reroll one wound roll when resolving that unit’s attack and 2) each time an attack with an AP characteristic of -1 is allocated…treat it as 0 instead.
Raven Guard: 1) count as being in Light Cover if the attacker is more than 18″ away and 2) INFANTRY only count as being in Dense Cover if the attacker is more than 12″ away.
Deathwatch: 1) each time a model with this tactic makes a melee attack against TYRANID, AELDARI, ORK, NECRONS or TAU, reroll a hit roll of 1 and 2) after both sides have finished deploying their armies, select one battlefield role. Until the end of the battle, each time a model with this tactic makes an attack against an enemy unit with that battlefield role, reroll a wound roll of 1.

Im a RG player and if i read as RAW, infantry in DENSE COVER everywhere????????

The specific wording on the Dark Angels CT is very interesting. When on the receiving end of a charge, they're always going to be hitting at a +1 in melee.

Wait: aren't all units entitled to shooting at -1 after falling back in 9th ? Why is it part of the Ultramarine CT ?

 godardc wrote:
Wait: aren't all units entitled to shooting at -1 after falling back in 9th ? Why is it part of the Ultramarine CT ?

Nope. You can't fall back and shoot unless you have a special rule that lets you. Not even fly lets you fall back and shoot.

White scars are a fantastically fun army to play this edition, I am absolutely buzzing to get that chaplain on bike.

Main thing to see is how points shake out- I wonder if the deathbus detachment will stick around.

Also: I've got 3x indomitus marines, and this beautifully makes a 2k force by using each character, 25 intercessors, and 3x the other units. Other than the obvious turboslaplain coming out soon, what should I prioritise picking up?

If the Raven Guard rule is RAW.... -1 to hit against infantry unless within 12"? That would be... WOW. A -1 to hit and +1 to save would really go with their 'fluff' of being (at least a substantial proportion of the time) a chapter that operates sniper-style, and likes to sit back and whittle down the enemy before going in for the kill.

Still... WOW.

 hellpato wrote:
I just read that on spykybits

Dark Angels: 1) +1 to hit if the unit did not move in this turn and 2) something about Combat Attrition, probably auto-pass.
White Scars: 1) can Charge after Advance or Fall Back and 2) can fire Assault with no penalty after an Advance move.
Space Wolves: 1) +1 to hit in melee if the unit charged, was charged or heroically intervened and 2) units with this tactic can heroically intervene as if they were characters.
Imperial Fists: 1) ignore Light Cover and 2) 2 (probably only 1, blame the wonky screenshot) additional hits with unmodified 6s with bolt weapons.
Crimson Fists: 1) +1 to hit when the target unit contains 5+ more models than this unit (VEHICLE counts as 5) and 2) 1 additional hit with unmodified 6s with bolt weapons.
Black Templars: 1) reroll Advance and Charge rolls and 2) 5+ feel no pain against mortal wounds.
Blood Angels: 1) +1 to wound when charging, charged or heroically intervening and 2) +1″ to Advance and Charge rolls.
Flesh Tearers: 1) +1 to wound when charging, charged or heroically intervening and 2) -1 AP on unmodified wound rolls of 6.
Iron Hands: 1) 6+ feel no pain and 2) double wounds on the damage chart.
Ultramarines: 1) +1 Leadership and 2) can shoot in a turn during which it Falls Back, but at -1 to hit.
Salamanders:1) you can reroll one wound roll when resolving that unit’s attack and 2) each time an attack with an AP characteristic of -1 is allocated…treat it as 0 instead.
Raven Guard: 1) count as being in Light Cover if the attacker is more than 18″ away and 2) INFANTRY only count as being in Dense Cover if the attacker is more than 12″ away.
Deathwatch: 1) each time a model with this tactic makes a melee attack against TYRANID, AELDARI, ORK, NECRONS or TAU, reroll a hit roll of 1 and 2) after both sides have finished deploying their armies, select one battlefield role. Until the end of the battle, each time a model with this tactic makes an attack against an enemy unit with that battlefield role, reroll a wound roll of 1.

Im a RG player and if i read as RAW, infantry in DENSE COVER everywhere????????

 XeonDragon wrote:
If the Raven Guard rule is RAW.... -1 to hit against infantry unless within 12"? That would be... WOW. A -1 to hit and +1 to save would really go with their 'fluff' of being (at least a substantial proportion of the time) a chapter that operates sniper-style, and likes to sit back and whittle down the enemy before going in for the kill.

Still... WOW.

This is unchanged from 8th edition--Raven Guard already had a rule that made infantry -1 to be hit outside of 12". The thing is that everybody always played RG successors for the +3" range, so nobody ever used it. A couple of times in games with my first founding RG I had to bring out the codex to show my opponent the rule.

In gameplay it's no great shakes. Getting hit 16% less often doesn't deter anybody from shooting at you anyway and doesn't significantly increase survivability, and RG mostly want to be pretty close anyway. If there are devastators or scouts in the backfield causing problems, most opponents have something to send in close and get them. Also in 8th when thunderfires were king, they would still hit on a 3+, which was enough to wipe out a unit of scouts with one shot most of the time.

In 9th it may be even less of an advantage when the to-hit mods are capped at -1, so the doctrine won't even come into play if there's any other modifiers.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 XeonDragon wrote:
If the Raven Guard rule is RAW.... -1 to hit against infantry unless within 12"? That would be... WOW. A -1 to hit and +1 to save would really go with their 'fluff' of being (at least a substantial proportion of the time) a chapter that operates sniper-style, and likes to sit back and whittle down the enemy before going in for the kill.

Still... WOW.

This is unchanged from 8th edition--Raven Guard already had a rule that made infantry -1 to be hit outside of 12". The thing is that everybody always played RG successors for the +3" range, so nobody ever used it. A couple of times in games with my first founding RG I had to bring out the codex to show my opponent the rule.

In gameplay it's no great shakes. Getting hit 16% less often doesn't deter anybody from shooting at you anyway and doesn't significantly increase survivability, and RG mostly want to be pretty close anyway. If there are devastators or scouts in the backfield causing problems, most opponents have something to send in close and get them. Also in 8th when thunderfires were king, they would still hit on a 3+, which was enough to wipe out a unit of scouts with one shot most of the time.

In 9th it may be even less of an advantage when the to-hit mods are capped at -1, so the doctrine won't even come into play if there's any other modifiers.

The -1 was when you are inside building that how we read the rule not everywhere.... if it was that case... i played wrong all the time.

 hellpato wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 XeonDragon wrote:
If the Raven Guard rule is RAW.... -1 to hit against infantry unless within 12"? That would be... WOW. A -1 to hit and +1 to save would really go with their 'fluff' of being (at least a substantial proportion of the time) a chapter that operates sniper-style, and likes to sit back and whittle down the enemy before going in for the kill.

Still... WOW.

This is unchanged from 8th edition--Raven Guard already had a rule that made infantry -1 to be hit outside of 12". The thing is that everybody always played RG successors for the +3" range, so nobody ever used it. A couple of times in games with my first founding RG I had to bring out the codex to show my opponent the rule.

In gameplay it's no great shakes. Getting hit 16% less often doesn't deter anybody from shooting at you anyway and doesn't significantly increase survivability, and RG mostly want to be pretty close anyway. If there are devastators or scouts in the backfield causing problems, most opponents have something to send in close and get them. Also in 8th when thunderfires were king, they would still hit on a 3+, which was enough to wipe out a unit of scouts with one shot most of the time.

In 9th it may be even less of an advantage when the to-hit mods are capped at -1, so the doctrine won't even come into play if there's any other modifiers.

The -1 was when you are inside building that how we read the rule not everywhere.... if it was that case... i played wrong all the time.

It is "entirely on or within a terrain feature". So buildings would count, so would area terrain, etc. If it changes to just dense terrain beyond 12" that will be an upgrade.

Ad Mech have -1 to hit on everything I believe if you are Stygies and nobody is claiming thats broken

A -1 to hit isn't 16.7% of incoming fire. Depending on BS of the attacker it's 25% (3+) or 33% (4+) etc. But rerolls or boni to hit remedy that effect. Statistically a -1 to hit is huge, guess it rarely feels so in game. I played Alaitoc Eldar a lot and it never felt strong, though statistically it should have. Expert Crafters on the other hand always feels impactful. Guess it's the same with marines.

I currently have 20 Intercessors, all with the bog-standard weaponry (2 Aux GLs in there, and 4 Sergeants). I'm thinking of maybe getting a few more, and am wondering if any of the alternate weapons - the more snipe-y one and the more shooty one - are worthwhile?

Any thoughts there?

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
White scars are a fantastically fun army to play this edition, I am absolutely buzzing to get that chaplain on bike.

I'm using White Scars for my custom Chapter. I too am waiting for that biker Chaplain. He's going to lead my Outriders to victory... or lead them to something at least.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I currently have 20 Intercessors, all with the bog-standard weaponry (2 Aux GLs in there, and 4 Sergeants). I'm thinking of maybe getting a few more, and am wondering if any of the alternate weapons - the more snipe-y one and the more shooty one - are worthwhile?

Any thoughts there?

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
White scars are a fantastically fun army to play this edition, I am absolutely buzzing to get that chaplain on bike.

I'm using White Scars for my custom Chapter. I too am waiting for that biker Chaplain. He's going to lead my Outriders to victory... or lead them to something at least.

Chapter tactics and role needed are going to skew the discussion a bit. Plus normal foes, etc. And all this could change with the new book. Overall I think they are fairly well balanced.

The weight of fire from the assault version looks impressive. If you are using WS tactics, you can assault move w/o penalty. This should let you project your firepower pretty much everywhere.

Rapid fire is still the solid, middle of the road, TAC pick. The point of AP is nice to have, good volume of shots, nice range. Good strat to go with them for larger squads.

The heavy is low volume, but high quality shots. If you need a backfield camping squad, these could be your guys.

There is no wrong answer. I think with the last round of balance they made them all viable. The question is what your list needs, and things like warlord traits and chapter tactics. For example, as an Ultramarine, I skew towards rapid fire, as I can fire at full range for 2 turns in tac doctrine while on the move.

Just to chime in on the RG tactic, I’m pretty sure the one typed above is missing a vital detail. The pic that was leaked a month or two ago clearly showed that for one of the bonuses they had to already be in cover (similar to how it already works).

I think it was basically “if you’re 12” away you get light cover (infantry only), and if you’re 18” or more away and in a terrain piece then you are in dense cover”. Not 100% sure but I am positive that you cant get both bonuses just by standing in the open.

Bit of a nerf to the current RG tactic for things like vehicles, and in a few other situations. Disappointing IMO but I’ll just run my RG as successors I guess. Though really, if we don’t get some new strats to replace the fact that now everyone can put stuff in reserve for CPs and modifiers don’t stack (two changes that punched RG pretty hard in the guts), RG are going to have a quiet edition.

 Nevelon wrote:
The question is what your list needs, and things like warlord traits and chapter tactics.

Thanks for the information.

In relation to the above, I was also planning on having some Heavy Intercessors as kind of a "support unit" for my regular Intercessor squads, so something that compliments or backs-up the individual units.

The fact that the "Assault" weapon version of the Heavy Intercessors still has a "Heavy" weapon bothers me, as it defeats the purpose of the unit. On the other hand the "Heavy" version of the Heavy Intercessors guns seem to be quite tasty, and might make an interesting back-up for more static/objective-holding Intercessor units.