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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The question is what your list needs, and things like warlord traits and chapter tactics.

Thanks for the information.

In relation to the above, I was also planning on having some Heavy Intercessors as kind of a "support unit" for my regular Intercessor squads, so something that compliments or backs-up the individual units.

The fact that the "Assault" weapon version of the Heavy Intercessors still has a "Heavy" weapon bothers me, as it defeats the purpose of the unit. On the other hand the "Heavy" version of the Heavy Intercessors guns seem to be quite tasty, and might make an interesting back-up for more static/objective-holding Intercessor units.

It will be interesting to see if that should have been an assault heavy bolter. Might get errata’d.

I’ve not looked at the heavy intercessors much; was going to wait for the codex and the full picture. They strike me as solid backfield campers. The slower movement would not come into play, and the extra range gives them some reach. For WS players the assault version might work as well. Without the minus to hit, you can just run those tough wounds up the table to grab a midfield objective. For when you need to be there at the start of round 2, the assault guys can run round one without giving up the shooting, and hopefully have a boot on the objective at the start of turn 2 when it counts. Slightly easier with the extra inch of movement of regular intercessors, but the extra W/T of the chonky lads will be nice when you get there. It might even be worth giving up a rifle turn one for the heavy adding firepower for turns 2-5. Depends a lot on the cost.

When building a TAC list, I always ask “What do I have to kill piles of chaff? MEQ? TEQ? Light vehicles? Heavy armor?” I should probably update that list with primaris, both regular and chunky. But all the guns on the intercessors, both regular and heavy, do solid duty on different targets.

If the rumours of Outrider units only coming in groups of 3 (no doubt with zero options as well, thanks to no model/no rule) then that puts a serious crimp on my WS Biker idea.

I wanted to run 2x6 with the Bike Chappy leading them. No idea if that would have been effective, but it would have been evocative.


As for those Heavy Intercessors, I like the idea of them being the heavy backup for the more forward moving elements of my Chapter. I don't plan on having any of the current eyesore tanks in my army, so currently my "big" units are my two Redemptors. I do like the new speeder and not-Predator though, so i might end up with one of the former and two of the latter.

Of course they're all going to compete for slots alongside my Eradicators, Hellblasters and Eliminators.

 superwill wrote:
Just to chime in on the RG tactic, I’m pretty sure the one typed above is missing a vital detail. The pic that was leaked a month or two ago clearly showed that for one of the bonuses they had to already be in cover (similar to how it already works).

I think it was basically “if you’re 12” away you get light cover (infantry only), and if you’re 18” or more away and in a terrain piece then you are in dense cover”. Not 100% sure but I am positive that you cant get both bonuses just by standing in the open.

Bit of a nerf to the current RG tactic for things like vehicles, and in a few other situations. Disappointing IMO but I’ll just run my RG as successors I guess. Though really, if we don’t get some new strats to replace the fact that now everyone can put stuff in reserve for CPs and modifiers don’t stack (two changes that punched RG pretty hard in the guts), RG are going to have a quiet edition.

Welcome to Imperial Fists city. 9th bumf*cked us up, Core only auras is a straight up nerf to most of our heavy weapon platforms, and we will remain the chapter with worst Stratagems and Psychic powers.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If the rumours of Outrider units only coming in groups of 3 (no doubt with zero options as well, thanks to no model/no rule) then that puts a serious crimp on my WS Biker idea.

I wanted to run 2x6 with the Bike Chappy leading them. No idea if that would have been effective, but it would have been evocative.

I really wanted to do the same... 3x5 + chaplain... 93 attacks that rr to wound t1...

Oh well.
Very confident that white scars are going to be a hell of a chapter throughout 9th. Insane speed + push threats combined with tough, surgical units: what more could you ask for?

Very excited as to the potential of them for this edition.


considering this: opinions on TH/power weapons on assault intercessor sargeants? I'm expecting that a power sword/axe will be tasty in 5s and a big outflanking 10 man squad with a TH will be the strat.

Apparently TH aren't as dangerous (lower AP now... which kind of goes against the fluff, but whatever) at a flat 20 regardless of whether you're buying it for a character or a squad leader.

My plan was to give one Outrider Sergeant a TH, and the other a Power Sword. I hope that's possible.

If the proper Assault Intercessor kit is just two sprues with 5 Marines per sprue, and therefore a double set of Sergeant options, then I might start sprinkling them throughout my regular Intercessor units.

Do people take weapon upgrades on Intercessor Sergeants? Or do they tend to stick with what's free?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Apparently TH aren't as dangerous (lower AP now... which kind of goes against the fluff, but whatever) at a flat 20 regardless of whether you're buying it for a character or a squad leader.

My plan was to give one Outrider Sergeant a TH, and the other a Power Sword. I hope that's possible.

If the proper Assault Intercessor kit is just two sprues with 5 Marines per sprue, and therefore a double set of Sergeant options, then I might start sprinkling them throughout my regular Intercessor units.

Do people take weapon upgrades on Intercessor Sergeants? Or do they tend to stick with what's free?

I find it’s worth the points. The guys are 3A base. Plus one on the charge. Another if you spring for the vet intercessor strat. That’s firstborn captain level of swings. Might as well be doing it with something that’s going to leave a mark.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Apparently TH aren't as dangerous (lower AP now... which kind of goes against the fluff, but whatever) at a flat 20 regardless of whether you're buying it for a character or a squad leader.

My plan was to give one Outrider Sergeant a TH, and the other a Power Sword. I hope that's possible.

If the proper Assault Intercessor kit is just two sprues with 5 Marines per sprue, and therefore a double set of Sergeant options, then I might start sprinkling them throughout my regular Intercessor units.

Do people take weapon upgrades on Intercessor Sergeants? Or do they tend to stick with what's free?

I've been sticking with whats free simply because I'm not in a mood to buy upgrade packs just to get a power sword or something for my sergant, but assault intercessors will make things muuuch better in that regard

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Apparently TH aren't as dangerous (lower AP now... which kind of goes against the fluff, but whatever) at a flat 20 regardless of whether you're buying it for a character or a squad leader.

My plan was to give one Outrider Sergeant a TH, and the other a Power Sword. I hope that's possible.

If the proper Assault Intercessor kit is just two sprues with 5 Marines per sprue, and therefore a double set of Sergeant options, then I might start sprinkling them throughout my regular Intercessor units.

Do people take weapon upgrades on Intercessor Sergeants? Or do they tend to stick with what's free?

I've been sticking with whats free simply because I'm not in a mood to buy upgrade packs just to get a power sword or something for my sergant, but assault intercessors will make things muuuch better in that regard

I used a relic blade (from the VV kit I think), swords from the ravenwing upgrade sprue, and a fist from the BaC box. Never did a TH, as they added that option after I finished building all mine.

I’m also looking forward to the assault intercessor box. Going to do a lot to flesh out my sarge options. Going to start with the magnets as well at this point.

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
I really wanted to do the same... 3x5 + chaplain... 93 attacks that rr to wound t1...

Well. That's the end of that dream.

On the bright side I can now build my Outriders as I don't have to wait around to convert them/kitbash them with HTH weapons from the Assault Intercessor sprue...

GW man... bunch'a witches.

The NMNR thing is sucking the life out of the modeling side of the hobby. And giving the lore/fluff/realism a swift kick in the geneseed.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
A -1 to hit isn't 16.7% of incoming fire. Depending on BS of the attacker it's 25% (3+) or 33% (4+) etc. But rerolls or boni to hit remedy that effect. Statistically a -1 to hit is huge, guess it rarely feels so in game. I played Alaitoc Eldar a lot and it never felt strong, though statistically it should have. Expert Crafters on the other hand always feels impactful. Guess it's the same with marines.

Not sure about your math here, Icanus. I don't think BS matters.

A BS 3 model has a base 66.6% (4/6) chance of hitting. -1 to hit makes that 50% to hit, or minus approx 16.7%
A BS 4 model has a base 50% (3/6) chance of hitting. -1 to hit makes that 33.3% to hit, or minus approx 16.7%
A BS 5 model has base 33.3% (2/6) chance of hitting. -1 to hit makes that 16.6% to hit, or minus approx 16.7%

If you're looking at the percent chance overall to score a wound, then the hit roll has a magnified effect on that because it's the first roll in the sequence. +1 or -1 modifiers on a d6 go in 1/6 increments (aka 16.7%).

Subtraction is the wrong approach here, you want to see how much lower is the reduced chance compared to the original.

Going from hitting on 5+ to hitting on 6+ will leave you with half of the original hits.

That's a quick sanity check to see that you are obviously losing more than 16.6%

Going from 4+ to 5+ will leave you with 2/3 of the original amount of hits

etc.

Also, the hit roll being the first in the sequence is irrelevant.

The sequence is: chance to hit * chance to wound * chance to fail the save

If you are hitting on 3+ and wounding on 3+ against 5+ save (so each step has a 2/3 chance of going through), giving yourself +1 to hit, +1 to wound, or -1 to AP will all have the same result. Try it out.

(now I hope I didn't make any mistake)

Really depends on how you want to look at it (and how you talk about % vs. percentage points as a unit of measure).
Even if your total probability to hit is 16.7 percentage points less going from 5+ to 6+ is 50% fewer expected hits. (You can see it from the overall percentage too: 16.7/33.3=.5)

In that way a -1 hurts less for a BS3+ unit than a BS4+ unit. It's a larger proportion of expected hits for the BS4+ shooter.

I mean sure, if you want to count overall shots 16.7% is correct, but that's not the damage mitigated by the modifier.
Considering sequence, it influences variance. It's basically like having 2 attacks with 1 damage or 1 attack with two damage. The former has 3 possible outcomew, 0, 1 and 2 damage. So the chance to do any damage at all is higher. The latter is more swingy with either 0 or 2 damage dealt. Statistically they're even though. So if you prefer the more reliable but lower ceiling approach, better hit > better wound > better ap.

@Icanus.

You are arguing a different thing. What's being said is that due to the commutative law of multiplication.

a hit 3 wound on 4 attack is mathematically the same as

a hit on 4 wound on 3 attack.

Thus 2/3*1/2 = 1/2 * 2/3

You are saying that a multi attack has less variance than a single attack that has the same average damage. This is true. But the conclusion you made at the end hit>wound>AP does not follow from this. What follows from your example is that multi attacks have less variance not that hit is better than wound.

I was updating an old list I made and I don’t know why my vantard veteran had each one two chainswords. Now I do t know how to use them or send them to 30k

Is it really true that Repulsors and Impulsors lost FLY? I mean I'm super happy that marines got nerfed but this really, REALLY, rubs me the wrong way. They are HOVER tanks ffs and suddenly, yeah, they're grounded. Not very happy since I recently spent some 200€ on two Reps and 2 Imps but I'm kinda glad I don't have to waste time painting them.

flyers can leap tall buildings in a single bound. Which isn't what repulsors can or should be able to do.

stratigo wrote:
flyers can leap tall buildings in a single bound. Which isn't what repulsors can or should be able to do.

Flyer is completely different thing than FLY in case you didn't know. Eldar tanks are not flyers either but they can do it. As can Necron Arks.

With today's terrain requirements it becomes impossible to get a Repulsor anywhere unless it can skip walls etc. Land Raider syndrome all over again.

I mean I'm pretty sure fly wasn't the biggest issue that they had...

Losing all rerolls, repulsor field, having no invuln when many weapons become d3+3 dmg or d6+2 damage they are close to worthless. Sure they have a lot of dakka but meh.

I was just about to buy a couple impulsors too... Glad I didn't.

They still seem super solid for bladeguard buses but just way worse now

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
@Icanus.

You are arguing a different thing. What's being said is that due to the commutative law of multiplication.

a hit 3 wound on 4 attack is mathematically the same as

a hit on 4 wound on 3 attack.

Thus 2/3*1/2 = 1/2 * 2/3

You are saying that a multi attack has less variance than a single attack that has the same average damage. This is true. But the conclusion you made at the end hit>wound>AP does not follow from this. What follows from your example is that multi attacks have less variance not that hit is better than wound.

Actually, i'm not. I understand i brought it across in a weird way, but the example holds. Average 1/2 × 2/3 is the same as 2/3 × 1/2, according to however you anglophile folks call that law :p but the variance of the two is different, which is easier to explain with the above example than small fractions of hit and wound chances. It's basically the law of large numbers, the more hits you get, the likelier your wound rolls are to behave statistically. Thus the better hit chance is less swingy than the better wound chance, though the average is the same. Does this make sense?

Anyone have a good photo of the points for SMs? I have seen some blurry ones floating around that are the quality of most UFO & Bigfoot sightings. I’m also trying to see a redemptor dreadnaught Datasheet with all the changes if anyone can point me in the right direction.

broxus wrote:
Anyone have a good photo of the points for SMs? I have seen some blurry ones floating around that are the quality of most UFO & Bigfoot sightings. I’m also trying to see a redemptor dreadnaught Datasheet with all the changes if anyone can point me in the right direction.

From the N&R thread

https://imgur.com/a/SdF2q43

Cpt. Icanus wrote:

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
@Icanus.

You are arguing a different thing. What's being said is that due to the commutative law of multiplication.

a hit 3 wound on 4 attack is mathematically the same as

a hit on 4 wound on 3 attack.

Thus 2/3*1/2 = 1/2 * 2/3

You are saying that a multi attack has less variance than a single attack that has the same average damage. This is true. But the conclusion you made at the end hit>wound>AP does not follow from this. What follows from your example is that multi attacks have less variance not that hit is better than wound.

Actually, i'm not. I understand i brought it across in a weird way, but the example holds. Average 1/2 × 2/3 is the same as 2/3 × 1/2, according to however you anglophile folks call that law :p but the variance of the two is different, which is easier to explain with the above example than small fractions of hit and wound chances. It's basically the law of large numbers, the more hits you get, the likelier your wound rolls are to behave statistically. Thus the better hit chance is less swingy than the better wound chance, though the average is the same. Does this make sense?

Except it doesn't work that way. 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound produces the exact same spread of outcomes as 4+ to hit and 3+ to wound. As a quick example, I ran the numbers for 5 attacks at both a 3+/4+ and a 4+/3+

3+ hit 4+ wound gives you:
5 wounds: 0.41%
4 wounds: 4.12%
3 wounds: 16.46%
2 wounds: 32.92%
1 wound : 32.92%
0 wounds: 13.17%

4+ to hit and 3+ to wound also gives you:
5 wounds: 0.41%
4 wounds: 4.12%
3 wounds: 16.46%
2 wounds: 32.92%
1 wound : 32.92%
0 wounds: 13.17%

2/3*1/2 is statistically identical to 1/2*2/3 in terms of both average outcomes and spread of outcomes. Neither is more swingy than the other.

Anyone seen the new rules/datasheet for Drop pods? I'm entertaining a thought of dropping 5+1 Long Fangs with Multimeltas to wreck some armor. With 2 wounds a pop they're also a great distraction carnifex to boot.

Drop pods used to allow (or require) "half" of them to drop on first turn but you probably can't drop first turn at least outside your deployment... Any idea how they work now? Haven't really used pods since 7th edition.

Pods are basically the same as in 8th, just a bit cheaper. They and their contents don't count against the no more than half in reserve limit, can arrive turn 1, and still set up them and passengers anywhere more than 9" from the enemy when they arrive. The half your pods turn 1 rule went away last edition and hasn't returned.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
Pods are basically the same as in 8th, just a bit cheaper. They and their contents don't count against the no more than half in reserve limit, can arrive turn 1, and still set up them and passengers anywhere more than 9" from the enemy when they arrive. The half your pods turn 1 rule went away last edition and hasn't returned.

Hmm, just checked the matched play rules and no Strategic Reserves or Reinforcements can arrive on first battle round. But I suppose there could be tanks/monsters left on the second battle round... The unit comes down to 218ish points + Pod whatever that costs. A hefty sum for sure but they at least get to fire once for full effect before reprisals.

Yeah, Drop Pods is actually a interesting option and not just for dropping some devastators with multi-melta.

Just sadly for me is that as I am planning on making all-Primaris Flesh Tearer list so I can't take them (for whatever reason), like few other things.

 Weazel wrote:
Is it really true that Repulsors and Impulsors lost FLY? I mean I'm super happy that marines got nerfed but this really, REALLY, rubs me the wrong way. They are HOVER tanks ffs and suddenly, yeah, they're grounded. Not very happy since I recently spent some 200€ on two Reps and 2 Imps but I'm kinda glad I don't have to waste time painting them.

They got hit a number of ways. Repulsors don't get rerolls from auras now and lost the double shoot turret for executioners. Still like 350 points as a base. I heard they also got hit with transport but not 100% on that.

Honestly I'm just going to run them as the Gladiator tanks. I only wanted that to begin with for Primaris so I'm happy with stand ins even if they're a little bulkier.

Sotahullu wrote:
Yeah, Drop Pods is actually a interesting option and not just for dropping some devastators with multi-melta.

Just sadly for me is that as I am planning on making all-Primaris Flesh Tearer list so I can't take them (for whatever reason), like few other things.

I've been doing 'all primaris' too, but now that old marines have two wounds, I don't feel weird for using primaris models to represent them. Today I've been converting primaris-bodied sternguard to go in pods. They basically have stats of an intercessor with a bolt rifle, except they have a point more of Ld and AP.