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My point was that PBC get absolutely no army bonus, even if the DG legion trait wasn't completely useless.

 Jidmah wrote:
My point was that PBC get absolutely no army bonus, even if the DG legion trait wasn't completely useless.

It's almost like Marine stuff tended not to get army bonuses for vehicles beyond certain types.

I don't have the DG book handy nor do I have War of the Spider where the DG got their Plague Companies. Aren't there some auras and the like that they can benefit from?

 Jidmah wrote:
Why is it that people always take units that literally no one considers to be even halfway decent as a point of reference?

That's also not correct, a las predator is 170 and does 3 damage on average to a PBC. So 680 points of a rather inefficient anti-tank unit suffice to kill it.
A single unit of 6 eradicators with zero support blows them mile high in a single shooting phase just fine.

It also takes 480 points of entropy cannon PBC to kill a predator, or 680 points of the much more popular spitter load-out, assuming none of the PBC have lost more than 6 wounds, 640/850 points if even a single one did.

Coz every army has acess to the busted eradicators?
The flamer pbc was a bane of my army. Hosing down my -3 to hit infantry with flamers lile nothing..

I mean when there are 3 on the board it really is a grind and many lists just could not shift them. Especialy if you use terrain so you can focus fire on one. Its anectodal but once i remember doing 15 damage to one and he shrugged all but 2...

High toughness, invuln plus shrugs is tough to shift.
I recon thats why ynnari wraithseers went by the way of the dodo.

 Jidmah wrote:
And let's not forget that LRBT also have much more range than PBC and can actually benefit from regimental doctrines.

Yeah, I'm willing to bet No Catachan Rerolls Were Accounted For In The Making of This Mathhammer.

 Argive wrote:

The flamer pbc was a bane of my army. Hosing down my -3 to hit infantry with flamers lile nothing..

-3 to hit infantry? Boy, poor you

Wasn't aware that people were "demoralised" by the toughness of the Death Guard - whose entire shtick is being tough - but my eyes have been opened

the_scotsman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
And let's not forget that LRBT also have much more range than PBC and can actually benefit from regimental doctrines.

Yeah, I'm willing to bet No Catachan Rerolls Were Accounted For In The Making of This Mathhammer.

Got it in 1, no staking buffs since not every russ is from catachan oddly

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My point was that PBC get absolutely no army bonus, even if the DG legion trait wasn't completely useless.

It's almost like Marine stuff tended not to get army bonuses for vehicles beyond certain types.

I don't have the DG book handy nor do I have War of the Spider where the DG got their Plague Companies. Aren't there some auras and the like that they can benefit from?

Do we want to start a gakking contest over how many buffs are hidden in the depths of each codex, add up all the points and CP necessary to get those buffs to find out the answer to a question that has already been answered and derail the thread doing so, or shall we rather not?

If LRBT are a good tank for their army(I have no clue) and so is the PBC, what else is there to discuss? Death Guard are supposed to be the most durable army with a focus on daemon engines, so of course no other vehicle is more durable than their daemon main battletank.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My point was that PBC get absolutely no army bonus, even if the DG legion trait wasn't completely useless.

It's almost like Marine stuff tended not to get army bonuses for vehicles beyond certain types.

I don't have the DG book handy nor do I have War of the Spider where the DG got their Plague Companies. Aren't there some auras and the like that they can benefit from?

Do we want to start a gakking contest over how many buffs are hidden in the depths of each codex, add up all the points and CP necessary to get those buffs to find out the answer to a question that has already been answered and derail the thread doing so, or shall we rather not?

If LRBT are a good tank for their army(I have no clue) and so is the PBC, what else is there to discuss? Death Guard are supposed to be the most durable army with a focus on daemon engines, so of course no other vehicle is more durable than their daemon main battletank.

Nothing relevant to add to anything until we get new rules etc.

Death guard and custodes both suffer from the toughness factor. It is demorilizing to shoot your entire army into one unit and do 3 wounds.

Unfortunately for custodes, they dont have cheap obsec bodies to soak mortal wound with so they suffer pretty hard from those. They do however gain a fair bit more mobility.

Nick Nanavati did a podcast where he talked about how toughness has lost its value over 9th Ed as everyone got more killy with every release. DG suffered more from this than anyone. A revamp is overdue. If playing vs DG is demoralizing you, you need to work on your lists.

 Virules wrote:
Nick Nanavati did a podcast where he talked about how toughness has lost its value over 9th Ed as everyone got more killy with every release. DG suffered more from this than anyone. A revamp is overdue. If playing vs DG is demoralizing you, you need to work on your lists.

Pretty much this. It wasn't like Death Guard was face stomping people in 8th. They've seen some resurgence with War of the Spider and 9th, but even then that appears to be a short lived era with other armies rushing for the top spot.

 Virules wrote:
If playing vs DG is demoralizing you, you need to work on your lists.

Got it in one

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Virules wrote:
If playing vs DG is demoralizing you, you need to work on your lists.

Got it in one

Isn't that applicable to everything in this game?

Including playing against marines and eradicator spam?

tneva82 wrote:
Yes you can if gw changes things. I have no problems admitting　gw changed their years long tradition. You do　know things change right? What i stated has　been　correct until new codexes came that changed things

Sorry. Your attempt at needlling　suffered epic fail　 need to study years to do it

Calling you on your bull isn't needling. That would be repeatedly poking at you over many posts, over many threads.

Calling you out on a spectacularly fast pivot from "pre-order date is what they judge when a release is" to "release date is what they judge when a release is" after you've been repeating the former for months - if not years - is what it is.

Hell, I got whiplash reading that post of yours.

 Virules wrote:
Nick Nanavati did a podcast where he talked about how toughness has lost its value over 9th Ed as everyone got more killy with every release. DG suffered more from this than anyone. A revamp is overdue. If playing vs DG is demoralizing you, you need to work on your lists.

You think he'd know better than to mouth off about how the edition is going to develop, or they won't have him back to do any more "meta" articles on WHC with his little power level graphic...

dunno of the fnp nerf will be that a big deal with the extra wound for marines/termies.. but poxwalkers with 7+/6++ will die in rows..

I presume that dg termies will become 5++ like SM relic termies..

Also the foul blightspawn aura will get hit by the bat too..

Dudeface wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Virules wrote:
If playing vs DG is demoralizing you, you need to work on your lists.

Got it in one

Isn't that applicable to everything in this game?

Including playing against marines and eradicator spam?

I'm not the one complaining about being "demoralised" here

 Matrindur wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/18/space-marines-gladiator-model-focus/

Gladiator Tank will be up for preorder on 28th which means that will probably also be the preorder date for Death Guard and Blood Angels

My guess is that is when we see the Assault Intercessors prerorder as well. Probably one other kit (we are waiting Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Stormspeeder, and Bladeguard), which is likely the Eradicators. I am guessing Heavy Intercessors, Stormspeeder, and Bladeguard come with the Dark Angels.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Virules wrote:
If playing vs DG is demoralizing you, you need to work on your lists.

Got it in one

Isn't that applicable to everything in this game?

Including playing against marines and eradicator spam?

I'm not the one complaining about being "demoralised" here

No, you're just trying to act high and mighty over someone's mental perception of a game mechanic.

I find having something I've earned/accomplished (damage from wounds) then taken away from me (DR) demoralising.

Dudeface wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Virules wrote:
If playing vs DG is demoralizing you, you need to work on your lists.

Got it in one

Isn't that applicable to everything in this game?

Including playing against marines and eradicator spam?

Well there are some factions where the list can only be worked so far.

That said, I can't say that 8th ed Death Guard is/was so durable that it required a highly optimized or tailored list to combat their durability. Just an understanding what they give up to have that durability and how to exploit it.

Caution: player anecdote ramble below

I only managed to play against Death Guard once as my last game of 8th edition. My first turn was sad only removing like 3-5 wounds to the entire Death Guard army. To be fair, I was targeting his blight-haulers and didn't have much that would hurt them. So I was chipping away at them to lessen their effect later in the game. My all Primaris (100+pts less and no supplements), all Infantry army spiked turn 2 when the Tactical Doctrine and melee started. Also, two groups of Reivers x10 (yeah, I ran 20 Reivers) showed up. Melee in particular was a bloodbath via the sheer number of attacks (my army uses Whirlwind of Rage) as well as an extreme spike in good rolls for me, bad rolls for my opponent.

The low amount of damage when facing the Death Guard is just something a player has to work around I think. I just had faith that my damage would keep chipping away at them eventually. I also had all the control to dictate when and where I wanted to get stuck in as Death Guard are crazy slow with the few units that are fast easy enough to cutoff and defeat in detail/tarpit. That was probably the worst of it for that Death Guard player as the entire table felt dangerous and sooner or later that durability is going to fail them.

My opponent said to me after the game that every thing in my army seemed to have a purpose while he couldn't figure out what he wanted his army to do. Which I think was more he was still pretty new to full 40k coming from Kill Team, and I know my Primaris army pretty well (they are really easy to know) despite being a largely random assortment of models. I didn't know I was going to play a game of 40k and only had my Primaris with me to allow another try before they buy units for their Space Marine army. I even had to trade out a LT for the Gravis Captain as the LT fell off his base (I didn't use enough glue) before the game. Yes, the Gravis Cpt is more points, but I desperately wanted more re-roll wounds (my other chapter tactic is Bolter Fusillades). So I basically yeeted the Gravis Cpt straight into the moving castle of Typus, his terminator bodyguards and more pox walkers than I thought I had bolter rounds.

Dudeface wrote:
I find having something I've earned/accomplished (damage from wounds) then taken away from me (DR) demoralising.

It's not an accomplishment until the saves are failed. That's literally how the game works. You are the only person I've seen floating around claiming that the existence of DR is somehow demoralising, because there is a chance that it takes away the results of your hard-earned rolling. If your argument was purely "DR takes up too much time", sure. I disagree, but sure. DR being demoralising, however, is just absurd, such a view being your perception or no.

I can understand a new player, having a game against DG for the first time, being a bit taken aback by how much firepower might be required to take (x unit) down. But an experienced player? Come on. With experience should come realistic expectations. I don't shoot boltguns at a PBC expecting it to blow up, ergo I am not "demoralised". 40k already caters to instant gratification so much in 8th & 9th with characters virtually always hitting on 2's, re-rolls everywhere, stratagems to improve efficiency, etc, they don't need to baby people further. As others have said, DG aren't exactly enjoying game-breaking levels of power here, so if you can't deal with them, perhaps try changing your list...

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Virules wrote:
Nick Nanavati did a podcast where he talked about how toughness has lost its value over 9th Ed as everyone got more killy with every release. DG suffered more from this than anyone. A revamp is overdue. If playing vs DG is demoralizing you, you need to work on your lists.

Pretty much this. It wasn't like Death Guard was face stomping people in 8th. They've seen some resurgence with War of the Spider and 9th, but even then that appears to be a short lived era with other armies rushing for the top spot.

Yeah, toughness isn't tricky. Toughness and killing power and speed to grab objectives and ability to accomplish secondaries? That's hard.

Hopefully we'll see more than just the Hover-Predator on the 28th.

*crosses fingers for Heavy Intercessors*

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I find having something I've earned/accomplished (damage from wounds) then taken away from me (DR) demoralising.

It's not an accomplishment until the saves are failed. That's literally how the game works. You are the only person I've seen floating around claiming that the existence of DR is somehow demoralising, because there is a chance that it takes away the results of your hard-earned rolling. If your argument was purely "DR takes up too much time", sure. I disagree, but sure. DR being demoralising, however, is just absurd, such a view being your perception or no.

I have had multiple opponents tell me the exact same thing, so it surely isn't a problem exclusive to Dudeface.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hopefully we'll see more than just the Hover-Predator on the 28th.

*crosses fingers for Heavy Intercessors*

I want my plastic and non-sucky sculpt Flayed Ones.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I want my plastic and non-sucky sculpt Flayed Ones.

I still have this horrible feeling that we'll see them for the first time in whatever the new Killteam thing is. Ditto for the Assault Intercessors.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I want my plastic and non-sucky sculpt Flayed Ones.

I still have this horrible feeling that we'll see them for the first time in whatever the new Killteam thing is. Ditto for the Assault Intercessors.

I refuse to believe that Assault Intercessors will be next year! No! *weeps*

Forget DR, make plague marines T7 with 3W each. They can shoot each other with their boltguns for fun when they’re bored on long warp journeys!

 Dysartes wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/18/space-marines-gladiator-model-focus/

Gladiator Tank will be up for preorder on 28th which means that will probably also be the preorder date for Death Guard and Blood Angels

Yep fits the trend with new codexes. First saturday of month codexes　in store

Hang on - haven't you repeatedly claimed that the pre-order date is the one GW uses to determine which month a release falls into? That would make DG and BA a November thing, not a December one.

You can't have it both ways, tneva.

Historically, he would have been correct. But the November release of Deathwatch and Space Wolves went on Preorder on 10/31.

Who can decipher the ways of GW with 100% accuracy?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/18/space-marines-gladiator-model-focus/

Gladiator Tank will be up for preorder on 28th which means that will probably also be the preorder date for Death Guard and Blood Angels

My guess is that is when we see the Assault Intercessors prerorder as well. Probably one other kit (we are waiting Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Stormspeeder, and Bladeguard), which is likely the Eradicators. I am guessing Heavy Intercessors, Stormspeeder, and Bladeguard come with the Dark Angels.

Why? Bladeguard would make more sense for BA being melee unit. Gladiator is also themed for them seeing resemblance to Baal. That would leave Eradicators/Heavy Intercessors for DA as 'deathwing' theme, along with speeder which is also fitting for DA given the number of unique variants they have...

The LRBT is about where it should be since it's able to be squadroned and supposed to be fielded en masse rather than super survivable.

Uh, what? When AV was a thing, it was literally one of the only two widely available tanks with maximum AV of 14, outranking even majority of superheavies and some titans in durability from the front. Toughness is literally Russ' main point, always had been...

 Jidmah wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I find having something I've earned/accomplished (damage from wounds) then taken away from me (DR) demoralising.

It's not an accomplishment until the saves are failed. That's literally how the game works. You are the only person I've seen floating around claiming that the existence of DR is somehow demoralising, because there is a chance that it takes away the results of your hard-earned rolling. If your argument was purely "DR takes up too much time", sure. I disagree, but sure. DR being demoralising, however, is just absurd, such a view being your perception or no.

I have had multiple opponents tell me the exact same thing, so it surely isn't a problem exclusive to Dudeface.

What, that it's demoralising? That when you successfully roll DR it makes them feel...bad? Do they feel bad when you pass armour saves as well? Invulnerable saves? When you deny a psychic power?

I mean, Dudeface is literally on record on the previous page saying that he'd be happy with a -1 to wound over 5+ FnP, which you say is statistically the same, because...

Dudeface wrote:
Definitely, it makes it a choice in my hands to make since I can reliably predict the output rather than there being another layer of RNG.

So what, it's just that people feel sad because somebody gets two saves and that looks worse to their eyes than an alternative which is statistically identical? Some real galaxy brain thinking going on here