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2020/08/17 03:37:52
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: Completely agree. The game I am looking forward to the most is my space marines vs. a friend of mines Nidzilla army. I want a brutal game with piles of dead marines heroically chipping away at those behemoths. I don't want to have take a quarter less points to maybe make it happen though.
Games Workshop is going to have to figure out a way to my Tyranids, especially the big bugs, resilient enough to be scary. I haven't clue how they could to it though. Increasing Toughness only gets so far, and more Wounds could work if their wasn't mechanics that strip terrain buffs go over a certain amount.
I want my Carnifexes to be tougher than frickin' Rhinos. I want a Hive Tyrant that doesn't vanish the moment a single tip of a claw gets seen from behind cover. I want Trygons that are worth taking. I want to bring my Toxicrene for reasons beyond "It looks cool!". I want there to be a purpose for Raveners. A purpose for Hormagaunts. For our flyers to stop sucking. For Lictors to be awesome (granted they have more of a place in 9th, but even so). I want Scything Talons to do more than give you an extra attack once you get a third/fourth claw (unlike Astartes Chainswords, which give you +1 attack just for having one).
You're right that Toughness/Wounds only goes so far, but if we are going the Toughness route, can the Mawloc/Trygon/Trygon Prime please have toughness values befitting their enormous stature?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/17 03:38:55
I think Custodes vs. Death Guard could be a tough match-up. But I agree with Slayer-Fan. I think Death Guard aren't going to be the powerhouses some think they are. Unless again, players plan to go killing them over playing the objectives. It isn't going to be easy, but what fun would game be if every strategy was easy to accomplish?
2020/08/17 03:48:11
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
stratigo wrote: Logically, yes. It would not make sense for all marines but Death guard getting 2 wounds. The issue it that with an army wide FNP and many ways to buff it, the basic plague marine soon gets an effective 4 or more wounds a model. And this isn't taking into account their terminators. Plague marines are going to have to start costing a handful of points shy of custodes to reflect their actual value. And they won't.
There aren't "many" ways to buff their FNP, the only way they can get to an effective wound count of "4 or more" is by spending 2 CP per phase while having a specific character near them that was upgraded by a stratagem limited to a specific plague company.
And even then, they still don't do damage comparable to any other marine unit, let a lone a custodes, not to mention that they don't get an army trait that actually does anything, unlike every other loyal marine in existence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: It does seem problematic. It's going to be hard to tread the line between making sure they cost enough to not be overpowered, without making them so expensive that they cease to be useful as troops.
If 1W on a tactical is worth 3 points, +1W on a PM with a 5+++ has to be worth at least double that, and arguably more with the way the missions are set up right now. So you're getting up into 25ish points a model territory before any gear.
Math at it's finest. A 5+++ is the equivalent of multiplying wounds by 1.5 under perfect conditions, so the extra wound should cost more than twice as much?
In my estimation, death guard are, as of this change, the best army in the game bar none. No loyalist marines beat them. Not iron hands, not salamanders.
Also a squad of combat plague marines trounces custodes guard with these changes.
LOL imagine saying that with a straight face.
Every competitive gamer that's bothered to speak up has put, before this change, Death guard in their top 5 armies. Every single one. Many in their top 3, most above marines already.
You know something they don't here?
2020/08/17 03:52:43
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Yeh if I had to predict a tier based on current rules id say
1.Marines 2. DG 3. AD mech 4. Custodes 5. Quins/Eldar
Mind you i dont know how hard these were hit by points respectively apart from how everything was hit across the board by a hike. Just going on how in my experiance they can cap and deny priamries as well as move to egt secondaries.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/17 03:56:04
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
H.B.M.C. wrote: I want my Carnifexes to be tougher than frickin' Rhinos. I want a Hive Tyrant that doesn't vanish the moment a single tip of a claw gets seen from behind cover. I want Trygons that are worth taking. I want to bring my Toxicrene for reasons beyond "It looks cool!". I want there to be a purpose for Raveners. A purpose for Hormagaunts. For our flyers to stop sucking. For Lictors to be awesome (granted they have more of a place in 9th, but even so). I want Scything Talons to do more than give you an extra attack once you get a third/fourth claw (unlike Astartes Chainswords, which give you +1 attack just for having one).
You're right that Toughness/Wounds only goes so far, but if we are going the Toughness route, can the Mawloc/Trygon/Trygon Prime please have toughness values befitting their enormous stature?
I'm right there with you. I was shocked when I played against that Nidzilla list how few 6 to wound rolls I needed with marine bolt weapons. I assumed it would be every time. I really felt that I should have use Hellblasters, maybe even super charged, to reliably put wounds on them. Maybe a reduce X wounds/halve wounds to a mimium of 1 type rule could help.
I am less sure about the damage buffs. Not that I don't think they don't need them, just in our games the Tyranid player didn't get to hit as much of my army to know if it was good or bad. Well beyond the Swarmlord which did some work for him.
I think gaunts/gants will be fine. They might be a bit expensive, but I think as I mentioned, I think 9th is going to see horde units like them better suit to hold objectives rather than win fights generally. I'm unsure about Tyranid flyers, given the increase in terrain density for 9th they should be improved, but I don't know how much terrain rules are going to help keep them around. I haven't dealt with nid flyers enough to know where they stand.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/17 03:57:25
2020/08/17 03:54:58
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
In my estimation, death guard are, as of this change, the best army in the game bar none. No loyalist marines beat them. Not iron hands, not salamanders.
Also a squad of combat plague marines trounces custodes guard with these changes.
Death Guard Plague Marines will be okay with this change, but the real meme dream is to take an Alpha Legion Battalion with a Death Guard detachment added on (probably a spearhead). Take Plague Marines in the Alpha Legion detachment, and now you have a 20 man block of dudes with a 3+, -1 to be shot, 5+++, and two wounds while having access to both Alpha Legion stratagems and the Plague Marine ones from War of the Spider. Just for fun take Fabius Bile with a surgeon acolyte to make them toughness 6 to make guardsmen wound them on a six and Custodes wound them on a four with spears and a five with swords. Now you have an incredibly difficult to shift unit that is deadly in melee, has good board presence due to being able to make use of Alpha Legion strats like forward operatives and renascent infiltration, can use conceal to force their opponent to shoot at something chaffy like cultists, and then gain access to Death Guard stratagems like virulent rounds, putrid fecundity, trench fighters, and miasmal afflictions. Having the Plague Marines in the Alpha Legion detachment also lets you use a Dark Apostle or Chaos Marines sorcerer to buff them.
2020/08/17 03:58:45
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
In my estimation, death guard are, as of this change, the best army in the game bar none. No loyalist marines beat them. Not iron hands, not salamanders.
Also a squad of combat plague marines trounces custodes guard with these changes.
Death Guard Plague Marines will be okay with this change, but the real meme dream is to take an Alpha Legion Battalion with a Death Guard detachment added on (probably a spearhead). Take Plague Marines in the Alpha Legion detachment, and now you have a 20 man block of dudes with a 3+, -1 to be shot, 5+++, and two wounds while having access to both Alpha Legion stratagems and the Plague Marine ones from War of the Spider. Just for fun take Fabius Bile with a surgeon acolyte to make them toughness 6 to make guardsmen wound them on a six and Custodes wound them on a four with spears and a five with swords. Now you have an incredibly difficult to shift unit that is deadly in melee, has good board presence due to being able to make use of Alpha Legion strats like forward operatives and renascent infiltration, can use conceal to force their opponent to shoot at something chaffy like cultists, and then gain access to Death Guard stratagems like virulent rounds, putrid fecundity, trench fighters, and miasmal afflictions. Having the Plague Marines in the Alpha Legion detachment also lets you use a Dark Apostle or Chaos Marines sorcerer to buff them.
The only downside is the lack of mobility.
You can probably cap and hold the 2 primaries on your side but slogging it up the board whilst removing their objectives might be tricky. But yeah I found DG hard as hell to shift with 1W msuDG and pox walkers being pests. 2W DG blobbies are going to be hella nasty to shift.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Oh there's always some rumor about somebody hating this faction or being a huge fanboy for this other faction or blah blah blah. Who knows how many people actually get their hands on these books now. I seriously doubt one guy not liking Orkz is likely to have much affect on the book as a whole.
Do you have a moment to talk about 7th edition orkz?
On a serious note, you can actually see a bit of bias if you look at releases. When was the last time Marines got a new unit that wasn't good on release or relatively quickly (by GW standards) buffed to be at the very least good? "
Now, look at Orkz. On release none of the buggies were very useful, you could make an argument that 2 of them were good but the others were border line bad and the Squig buggy was just utter crap. None got any buffs until CA and it was to give a few price cuts but didn't do much.
Do I believe 1 person has a vendetta against Orkz and that is why they suffer? no. But what I do believe is that GW doesn't have any Ork fanboyz and as such they don't receive the special attention some other factions get.
AL also lets you move then 9" pregame or even pick them up and put them down the following turn. They lose ob-sec though, so I'm not sure it's really worth it overall.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/17 04:02:33
2020/08/17 04:15:32
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
On a serious note, you can actually see a bit of bias if you look at releases. When was the last time Marines got a new unit that wasn't good on release or relatively quickly (by GW standards) buffed to be at the very least good? "
Well Reivers have never set the world on fire, but you're right that is 3 year old model. I can't really say that Incursors are 'very good' either. They're okay, but nothing stand out. At least to me. That was last year. I personally am not finding Assault Intercessors to be that good. To me they are Chaos Space Marines with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword Extra. And I never really found a role for my melee CSM. Sure, Assault Intercessors are much better with damage output, but I don't know if it is worth buying them an Impulsor or footslogging them worthwhile. Assault Intercessor certainly aren't bad. I just wouldn't rate them 'Very Good' either even in comparison to other factions.
2020/08/17 04:39:53
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
On a serious note, you can actually see a bit of bias if you look at releases. When was the last time Marines got a new unit that wasn't good on release or relatively quickly (by GW standards) buffed to be at the very least good? "
Well Reivers have never set the world on fire, but you're right that is 3 year old model. I can't really say that Incursors are 'very good' either. They're okay, but nothing stand out. At least to me. That was last year. I personally am not finding Assault Intercessors to be that good. To me they are Chaos Space Marines with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword Extra. And I never really found a role for my melee CSM. Sure, Assault Intercessors are much better with damage output, but I don't know if it is worth buying them an Impulsor or footslogging them worthwhile. Assault Intercessor certainly aren't bad. I just wouldn't rate them 'Very Good' either even in comparison to other factions.
Incursor mines can be interesting at times. Infiltrators just piss me off though and I need to prioritize them quickly. Assault Intercessors are not amazing, but they're going to eventually sneak up on you and give you an ulcer while you're worrying about other crap.
As for lack luster releases...Aggressors, Inceptors, Redemptors, Repulsors, Reivers, Suppressors, Eliminators, Hellblasters, and the Executioner were all pretty hum drum. None of them got interesting until August 2019. Most of those models waited a very long time for that -definitely not "relatively quickly".
Invictors, Infiltrators, and Impulsors were the models that came out "good", basically because two of them came out with the codex.
2020/08/17 04:40:51
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
In my estimation, death guard are, as of this change, the best army in the game bar none. No loyalist marines beat them. Not iron hands, not salamanders.
Also a squad of combat plague marines trounces custodes guard with these changes.
Death Guard Plague Marines will be okay with this change, but the real meme dream is to take an Alpha Legion Battalion with a Death Guard detachment added on (probably a spearhead). Take Plague Marines in the Alpha Legion detachment, and now you have a 20 man block of dudes with a 3+, -1 to be shot, 5+++, and two wounds while having access to both Alpha Legion stratagems and the Plague Marine ones from War of the Spider. Just for fun take Fabius Bile with a surgeon acolyte to make them toughness 6 to make guardsmen wound them on a six and Custodes wound them on a four with spears and a five with swords. Now you have an incredibly difficult to shift unit that is deadly in melee, has good board presence due to being able to make use of Alpha Legion strats like forward operatives and renascent infiltration, can use conceal to force their opponent to shoot at something chaffy like cultists, and then gain access to Death Guard stratagems like virulent rounds, putrid fecundity, trench fighters, and miasmal afflictions. Having the Plague Marines in the Alpha Legion detachment also lets you use a Dark Apostle or Chaos Marines sorcerer to buff them.
Sounds nasty. Know how gw could avoid that? Go back to the old ways: no marked units for Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, or Night Lords. So no Alpha Legion Plague Marines. You want cult units? Either play the legion devoted to that particular god or roll Black Legion. A lot of a legions character comes from what it can't take. I'm hoping gw returns to this philosophy, and drops the bland "everybody's the same" view they've had for the legions since the release of the horrid 4th edition csm codex. They did for a short time with the Traitor Legions supplement at the end of 7th, and a lot of the stuff in Faith and Fury was a throwback to that. Please gw, give bring back The Legions we used to have.
2020/08/17 04:43:33
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Oh there's always some rumor about somebody hating this faction or being a huge fanboy for this other faction or blah blah blah. Who knows how many people actually get their hands on these books now. I seriously doubt one guy not liking Orkz is likely to have much affect on the book as a whole.
Do you have a moment to talk about 7th edition orkz?
On a serious note, you can actually see a bit of bias if you look at releases. When was the last time Marines got a new unit that wasn't good on release or relatively quickly (by GW standards) buffed to be at the very least good? "
Now, look at Orkz. On release none of the buggies were very useful, you could make an argument that 2 of them were good but the others were border line bad and the Squig buggy was just utter crap. None got any buffs until CA and it was to give a few price cuts but didn't do much.
Do I believe 1 person has a vendetta against Orkz and that is why they suffer? no. But what I do believe is that GW doesn't have any Ork fanboyz and as such they don't receive the special attention some other factions get.
Pretty much all the Primaris marine stuff fits. Most (maybe not eliminators, but I'm pretty biased against 3 man units for sheer squishy-ness) were pretty meh-to-outright bad on release. Just basic intercessors took a lot of work and multiple revisions to be worthwhile.
I'm not really following your ork example, since the buggies were buffed in less time than it took to get pretty much the entire primaris line to 'good' (that didn't really happen until codex 2.0, so pretty much all of 8th edition except the last 10 months or so.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/08/17 04:45:07
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Pretty much all the Primaris marine stuff fits. Most (maybe not eliminators, but I'm pretty biased against 3 man units for sheer squishy-ness) were pretty meh-to-outright bad on release. Just basic intercessors took a lot of work and multiple revisions to be worthwhile.
I'm not really following your ork example, since the buggies were buffed in less time than it took to get pretty much the entire primaris line to 'good' (that didn't really happen until codex 2.0, so pretty much all of 8th edition except the last 10 months or so.
And all Primaris were bumped to at the very least "good" maybe not competitive but at least "Good" relatively quickly by GW standards. In contract those buggies, most never got even that far. Their were only 2 that were marginally competitive and the buffs didn't really change that until the very end of 8th where we got almost zero game play with them due to covid teamed with how close to 9th they were released. And lets not even discuss the Mek Workshop
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/17 04:48:15
Daedalus81 wrote: very long time for that -definitely not "relatively quickly".
Which is why I purposely added "By GW Standards" because by GDub standards that was lightning fast.
Sure, but I don't think that's a good assessment of bias when it revolves around a single point in time. At the same time IH was the fastest to receive a nerf (3 weeks) and marines may also the quickest to get army wide nerfs -- 5 months.
2020/08/17 04:51:11
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Oh there's always some rumor about somebody hating this faction or being a huge fanboy for this other faction or blah blah blah. Who knows how many people actually get their hands on these books now. I seriously doubt one guy not liking Orkz is likely to have much affect on the book as a whole.
Do you have a moment to talk about 7th edition orkz?
On a serious note, you can actually see a bit of bias if you look at releases. When was the last time Marines got a new unit that wasn't good on release or relatively quickly (by GW standards) buffed to be at the very least good? "
Now, look at Orkz. On release none of the buggies were very useful, you could make an argument that 2 of them were good but the others were border line bad and the Squig buggy was just utter crap. None got any buffs until CA and it was to give a few price cuts but didn't do much.
Do I believe 1 person has a vendetta against Orkz and that is why they suffer? no. But what I do believe is that GW doesn't have any Ork fanboyz and as such they don't receive the special attention some other factions get.
Do you even play 40k? Here's a list of space marine units that were mediocre to terrible upon release:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Repulsor, Repulsor Executioner, Aggressors(don't forget that before the 2.0 dex NO ONE used aggressors), incursors, suppressors(I misread their datasheet initially and thought they had DOUBLE the number of shots they actually do and still was only so-so on them before the 2.0 dex and the points drops), Redemptors, Reivers. Special mention to Hellblasters that STARTED really good and became terrible.
It took multiple years of CA point drops and the most OP book release in all of 8th to get still only SOME of these working, and even then about half were only temporary. Once the IH nerf came in Suppresors, Redemptors, and both repulsor variants went straight back down into the "decentfor friendly games" category.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/17 04:56:00
2020/08/17 05:01:33
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Oh there's always some rumor about somebody hating this faction or being a huge fanboy for this other faction or blah blah blah. Who knows how many people actually get their hands on these books now. I seriously doubt one guy not liking Orkz is likely to have much affect on the book as a whole.
Do you have a moment to talk about 7th edition orkz?
On a serious note, you can actually see a bit of bias if you look at releases. When was the last time Marines got a new unit that wasn't good on release or relatively quickly (by GW standards) buffed to be at the very least good? "
Now, look at Orkz. On release none of the buggies were very useful, you could make an argument that 2 of them were good but the others were border line bad and the Squig buggy was just utter crap. None got any buffs until CA and it was to give a few price cuts but didn't do much.
Do I believe 1 person has a vendetta against Orkz and that is why they suffer? no. But what I do believe is that GW doesn't have any Ork fanboyz and as such they don't receive the special attention some other factions get.
Do you even play 40k? Here's a list of space marine units that were mediocre to terrible upon release:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Repulsor, Repulsor Executioner, Aggressors(don't forget that before the 2.0 dex NO ONE used aggressors), incursors, suppressors(I misread their datasheet initially and thought they had DOUBLE the number of shots they actually do and still was only so-so on them before the 2.0 dex and the points drops), Redemptors, Reivers. Special mention to Hellblasters that STARTED really good and became terrible.
It took multiple years of CA point drops and the most OP book release in all of 8th to get still only SOME of these working, and even then about half were only temporary. Once the IH nerf came in Suppresors, Redemptors, and both repulsor variants went straight back down into the "decentfor friendly games" category.
or relatively quickly (by GW standards) buffed to be at the very least good?
You guys seem to be hell bent on ignoring that second part
Pretty much all the Primaris marine stuff fits. Most (maybe not eliminators, but I'm pretty biased against 3 man units for sheer squishy-ness) were pretty meh-to-outright bad on release. Just basic intercessors took a lot of work and multiple revisions to be worthwhile.
I'm not really following your ork example, since the buggies were buffed in less time than it took to get pretty much the entire primaris line to 'good' (that didn't really happen until codex 2.0, so pretty much all of 8th edition except the last 10 months or so.
And all Primaris were bumped to at the very least "good" maybe not competitive but at least "Good" relatively quickly by GW standards. In contract those buggies, most never got even that far. Their were only 2 that were marginally competitive and the buffs didn't really change that until the very end of 8th where we got almost zero game play with them due to covid teamed with how close to 9th they were released. And lets not even discuss the Mek Workshop
No they haven't been. As I mentioned previously, Reivers, incursors, repulsors, repulsor executioners, suppressors, and redemptors are all terrible. People forget that because of the hilariously OP 3 weeks of release Ironhands doing stuff like giving Executioners a 5++ invul and half damage and a bunch of other stuff but since the IH nerf, repulsor executioners are on the same tier as Land Raiders point for point.
Oh there's always some rumor about somebody hating this faction or being a huge fanboy for this other faction or blah blah blah. Who knows how many people actually get their hands on these books now. I seriously doubt one guy not liking Orkz is likely to have much affect on the book as a whole.
Do you have a moment to talk about 7th edition orkz?
On a serious note, you can actually see a bit of bias if you look at releases. When was the last time Marines got a new unit that wasn't good on release or relatively quickly (by GW standards) buffed to be at the very least good? "
Now, look at Orkz. On release none of the buggies were very useful, you could make an argument that 2 of them were good but the others were border line bad and the Squig buggy was just utter crap. None got any buffs until CA and it was to give a few price cuts but didn't do much.
Do I believe 1 person has a vendetta against Orkz and that is why they suffer? no. But what I do believe is that GW doesn't have any Ork fanboyz and as such they don't receive the special attention some other factions get.
Do you even play 40k? Here's a list of space marine units that were mediocre to terrible upon release:
Inceptors, Intercessors, Repulsor, Repulsor Executioner, Aggressors(don't forget that before the 2.0 dex NO ONE used aggressors), incursors, suppressors(I misread their datasheet initially and thought they had DOUBLE the number of shots they actually do and still was only so-so on them before the 2.0 dex and the points drops), Redemptors, Reivers. Special mention to Hellblasters that STARTED really good and became terrible.
It took multiple years of CA point drops and the most OP book release in all of 8th to get still only SOME of these working, and even then about half were only temporary. Once the IH nerf came in Suppresors, Redemptors, and both repulsor variants went straight back down into the "decentfor friendly games" category.
or relatively quickly (by GW standards) buffed to be at the very least good?
You guys seem to be hell bent on ignoring that second part
The part where you failed to commit to actually making a point in order to give yourself free reign to move the goalposts where the hell you feel like it once someone calls you on your nonsensical argument? Yunno the one where you can treat 3 years (the amount of time it took Inceptors to not be garbage) to be 'relatively quickly'?
Here's the part you ignored: HALF OF ALL PRIMARIS UNITS ARE STILL TERRIBLE. Hellblasters are gak, incursors suck, reivers suck, the redemptor is a fething joke compared to a contemptor, or even a standard vendread, repulsors suck, repulsor executioners suck, suppressors suck.
Inceptors came out on release of 8th and were completely worthless until THREE WEEKS AGO. Even then they're just 'okay'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/17 05:09:57
2020/08/17 05:21:32
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
SemperMortis wrote: Now, look at Orkz. On release none of the buggies were very useful, you could make an argument that 2 of them were good but the others were border line bad and the Squig buggy was just utter crap. None got any buffs until CA and it was to give a few price cuts but didn't do much.
That Ork release was, in my mind, indicative of everything that is wrong with GW's current design ethos at the moment, from both a miniature and rules perspective.
They managed to release 6 new vehicles for the Orks that:
1. From a kit perspective, have exactly one build.
2. From a rules perspective, have exactly zero options.
Orks. The most ramshackle race in the game.
Orks. The race that builds their vehicles out of junk so that no two are exactly alike.
Orks. The race whose Trukk and Battlewagon kit can be built to look completely different to the next one with virtually no effort, and that's before you even get to kitbashing.
6 kits to represent 6 units with zero optional parts/bitz, and no options in their rules.
They've been moving away from highly customizable kits for a while now, haven't they? Seems like more and more releases are, if not technically push-fit, based on the same fixed pose, matched-part principles that push-fit is based off. Swappable heads probably, but often not a lot more than that.
I've noticed that most of the kits I like the best are stuff from between about 2010 and 2016. The stuff after that (and I have no idea if that precise date is right or not, it's just off the top of my head), while the sculpt quality is usually very high, maybe even higher quality than the kits I like best, seems to lack the options than the prior kits had, and therefore they lack the versatility and repeatability that the old stuff has.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/17 05:37:14
2020/08/17 05:33:27
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
The supreme irony being that you consider those units to be "Not good" when other armies would LOVE to have them Since you singled out Hellblasters lets take a look at them currently.
33pts for a Primaris stat line and a 30' Plasma Gun and easy access to a plethora of re-rolls so you never really have to worry about super charging. In your opinion that "sucks".
For comparison, the ork equivalent to a Hellblaster is a Flash Git which is 32pts with a Nob stat line (except BS4) and a 24' Heavy 3 Snazz gun which is S6 -2 2D. To get a reroll you have to pay 5pts for an ammo runt and can only have 2 in a 10 man unit. To keep them alive more than a single turn and have them in range you need to have them in a vehicle or deep striking which regardless lowers your BS back to standard 5+. I don't consider them competitive But I do consider them ok-goodish.
Just because you have a feth ton of other great options doesn't make them "not good" it just means you guys are spoiled for choice.
yukishiro1 wrote: They've been moving away from highly customizable kits for a while now, haven't they? Seems like more and more releases are, if not technically push-fit, based on the same fixed pose, matched-part principles that push-fit is based off. Swappable heads probably, but often not a lot more than that.
Depends. Most of the Primaris infantry kits have had five fixed torso/leg poses, but arms swappable between bodies.
The supreme irony being that you consider those units to be "Not good" when other armies would LOVE to have them Since you singled out Hellblasters lets take a look at them currently.
33pts for a Primaris stat line and a 30' Plasma Gun and easy access to a plethora of re-rolls so you never really have to worry about super charging. In your opinion that "sucks".
For comparison, the ork equivalent to a Hellblaster is a Flash Git which is 32pts with a Nob stat line (except BS4) and a 24' Heavy 3 Snazz gun which is S6 -2 2D. To get a reroll you have to pay 5pts for an ammo runt and can only have 2 in a 10 man unit. To keep them alive more than a single turn and have them in range you need to have them in a vehicle or deep striking which regardless lowers your BS back to standard 5+. I don't consider them competitive But I do consider them ok-goodish.
Just because you have a feth ton of other great options doesn't make them "not good" it just means you guys are spoiled for choice.
I think there's a bit of grass is greener going on there. Those Hellblaster re-rolls ain't free nor guaranteed safe (1 in 36 unless being affected by additional modifiers). They have to over charge to get that precious D2. They are nearly as fragile Flash Gitz but don't really have that great of transport options to hide them (Impulsor limits to 6, 5 if you want that Captain or a Repulsor) and don't really have deep strike options. Sure, they have a 30 inch range, but I haven't ever found that to be that great to keep them alive, and if they move they are down to 1 shot with the RF version.
On the other hand, I think you are short selling Flash Gitz a bit. They got the standard Ork Dakka Dakkka Dakka as well as Gun Crazy Show-Offs to potentially up their number of shots. All of which are delivering Damage 2. Snazzguns deliver enough S and AP to be reasonably scary to heavy infantry. In true Ork fashion, they can be a bit of duds or spike for crazy damage with the high variation. Probably one of the weakest things is they can't pick their Kultur.
So I think these units are closer to each other than you are making them out to be. That's before talking about Flash Gitz generally being more useful in melee than Hellblasters. Something I find happening to my Hellblasters quite a bit to shut them down to choice targets.
2020/08/17 06:22:24
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
yep, I'd prefer the Hellblasters stats and weapons and access to buffs, but yeah, Flash Gitz are ok/goodish as i said
Which means that the Hellblasters are....ok/goodish. Context is everything. To a lot of Marine players, unless its the best thing in that slot than it is garbage. And because they have more options than anyone else, they think of a lot of stuff as garbage that other armies would take in a heart beat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: *SIDE NOTE: For your hellblasters, i'd just stick them in cover. 2+ saves are annoying as feth to play against for my orkz, especially on infantry I don't want to waste Smasha Guns on if i don't have to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/17 06:23:27
stratigo wrote: In my estimation, death guard are, as of this change, the best army in the game bar none. No loyalist marines beat them. Not iron hands, not salamanders.
Care to back up that statement? So far I'm aware of only one DG player placing in the top 4 of any GT, and he was using an illegal list to do so.
Also a squad of combat plague marines trounces custodes guard with these changes.
Just for comparison:
M WSBS S T W A LdSv 6" 2+ 2+ 5 5 3 3 8 2+/4++/6+++ vs MW 5" 3+ 3+ 4 5 2 1 7 3+/5+++ DR
Custodes get guardian spears, which are +1 S, AP-3 and d3 damage AND can shoot with rapid fire 1 24" S4 AP-1 2 damage. They can have a misericordia for an additional attack. Bubotic axes add one attack and are +1S, AP-2 and 1 damage, plague weapon and +1 attack. The two flails have 1d3 hits for each of their two attacks and are +2S, AP-2 and 2 damage, plague weapon and their damage is not lost to overkill. Neither has any shooting besides grenades.
Most importantly: Plague marines have already had this close combat ability ever since hateful blows was added to them. No one used them despite that because they were as slow melee unit without delivery mechanism and lacked the ability to kill any serious threats. Even with two flails, a unit of 10 only gets an average of 28 S5 and S6 attacks. Doubling their wounds changes nothing about this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
stratigo wrote: Every competitive gamer that's bothered to speak up has put, before this change, Death guard in their top 5 armies. Every single one. Many in their top 3, most above marines already.
You know something they don't here?
Have ever considered that most of those people gave them their ranking because of their nigh unkillable daemon engines, super-resilient terminators, tank-melting blight spawns and powerful daemon princes rather than a mediocre troops unit?
In my estimation, death guard are, as of this change, the best army in the game bar none. No loyalist marines beat them. Not iron hands, not salamanders.
Also a squad of combat plague marines trounces custodes guard with these changes.
Death Guard Plague Marines will be okay with this change, but the real meme dream is to take an Alpha Legion Battalion with a Death Guard detachment added on (probably a spearhead). Take Plague Marines in the Alpha Legion detachment, and now you have a 20 man block of dudes with a 3+, -1 to be shot, 5+++, and two wounds while having access to both Alpha Legion stratagems and the Plague Marine ones from War of the Spider. Just for fun take Fabius Bile with a surgeon acolyte to make them toughness 6 to make guardsmen wound them on a six and Custodes wound them on a four with spears and a five with swords. Now you have an incredibly difficult to shift unit that is deadly in melee, has good board presence due to being able to make use of Alpha Legion strats like forward operatives and renascent infiltration, can use conceal to force their opponent to shoot at something chaffy like cultists, and then gain access to Death Guard stratagems like virulent rounds, putrid fecundity, trench fighters, and miasmal afflictions. Having the Plague Marines in the Alpha Legion detachment also lets you use a Dark Apostle or Chaos Marines sorcerer to buff them.
Sounds nasty. Know how gw could avoid that? Go back to the old ways: no marked units for Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, or Night Lords. So no Alpha Legion Plague Marines. You want cult units? Either play the legion devoted to that particular god or roll Black Legion. A lot of a legions character comes from what it can't take. I'm hoping gw returns to this philosophy, and drops the bland "everybody's the same" view they've had for the legions since the release of the horrid 4th edition csm codex. They did for a short time with the Traitor Legions supplement at the end of 7th, and a lot of the stuff in Faith and Fury was a throwback to that. Please gw, give bring back The Legions we used to have.
No need. AL Plague Marines are elite instead of troops, which diminishes most of their value. If you charge them, they will struggle to kill whatever attacked them and if the charging unit is objective secured, then the objective i yours.
SemperMortis wrote: Now, look at Orkz. On release none of the buggies were very useful, you could make an argument that 2 of them were good but the others were border line bad and the Squig buggy was just utter crap. None got any buffs until CA and it was to give a few price cuts but didn't do much.
That Ork release was, in my mind, indicative of everything that is wrong with GW's current design ethos at the moment, from both a miniature and rules perspective.
They managed to release 6 new vehicles for the Orks that:
1. From a kit perspective, have exactly one build. 2. From a rules perspective, have exactly zero options.
Orks. The most ramshackle race in the game. Orks. The race that builds their vehicles out of junk so that no two are exactly alike. Orks. The race whose Trukk and Battlewagon kit can be built to look completely different to the next one with virtually no effort, and that's before you even get to kitbashing.
6 kits to represent 6 units with zero optional parts/bitz, and no options in their rules.
What. The. Hell?
Hey, that's not fair. I'm pretty sure the trukk doesn't have a lot of optional bits besides glyphs and vehicle equipment like boarding planks and wreckin' balls and most of the battlewagon' optional bits are just wargear options as well.
All of the buggies besides the scrapjet are build in a way that you can easily pull apart the pipes, engines, wheels, armor plates and other gubbins and re-combine them into a completely new buggy, exactly like people have been doing for trukks and battlewagons for ages. Most of the gretchin, squigs and snotlings on can also be put in different places to change the appearance of the buggy. On the squig buggy you can even re-arrange most of the crew freely. The only thing that's new compared to other ork plastic vehicles is that you have mono-build gunners in extravagant poses, but the gunner of the KBB isn't actually more customizable than the gunner on the trukk,
If you want to customize your buggies, there is certainly just as much room to do so as there is on the trukk.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/08/17 07:22:12
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/08/17 07:21:51
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
The Plague Marine talk earlier got me thinking math to figure out how much they should go up in points:
For 1 damage weapons, going to 2 wounds doubles the durability for both Tactical Marines and Plague Marines.
For 2 damage weapons, there is no improvement for Tacticals but it offers a little better than a 50% improved durability for Plague Marines. (It takes on average 1 unsaved D2 shot to kill a 1W Plague Marine, but 1.5069444444 to kill a 2W Plague Marine)
Higher damage weapons still offer no improved durability for regular marines, and a decreasing improvement to durability for plague marines (the higher the damage the more the durability increase approaches 0)
I didn't run the numbers on variable damage weapons, but they should offer a small increase in durability for regular marines, and a larger increase in durability for plague marines.
For Tacticals, a 1W increase in durability is valued at a 20% points increase
That 1W increase for Plague Marines is somewhere between 0 and 50% more valuable, which would equate to a 20-30% points increase.
At 18 points for a Plague Marine currently, that means going up by 3.6-5.4 points.
I would peg 2W Plague Marines as being worth 22-23 points per model.
2020/08/17 07:32:39
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Well, Tacticals will be on the level of Primaris as far as wounds are concerned.
But they have totally different weaponry with Tacticals having access to assault and heavy weapons.
Moreover, Tacticals can be transported by Razorbacks which themselves can be equipped with decent heavy weapons.
This will shift the meta slightly and we will see more Tacticals in the future.
Not a bad move by GW.
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Fnp on multi wound units against multi wound weapons are amazing. Its the most valuable when wounds match the damage. A 5+++ on 2w models against 2d weapons is almost like having 70% extra wounds. 3w models vs 3d weapons it goes even higher. If you are 4w with a 5+++ and fight against a 4d smash captain its almost as if you had 100% extra wounds.
Ofc the value drops a bit when the damage is much higher than the wound total but very few weapons have that high damage. A 5+++ on something like a hive tyrant is about 50% extra wounds no matter the weapon it gets shot by since the 12w makes overkill a non factor most of the time.
2020/08/17 07:56:01
Subject: How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Why are you shooting multi-damage weapons at plague marines though? Shouldn't those be targeting PBC, MBH, drones or daemon princes?
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/08/17 09:03:50
Subject: Re:How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?
Quite happy about it.
There should be no stats difference between SM and primaris SM, 15 year old army or 5 month old army. The switch to primaris was 100% pointless.
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