Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Do you have a source on that? I'm genuinely curious.

 Jidmah wrote:
Do you have a source on that? I'm genuinely curious.

Indeed - they weren't listed in the WHC article regarding weapon updated.

 Jidmah wrote:
Do you have a source on that? I'm genuinely curious.

vanguard vetern sheet



it COOOULD be an error but given how unpopular 1d3 dmg has been...

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Do you have a source on that? I'm genuinely curious.

vanguard vetern sheet

Spoiler:

it COOOULD be an error but given how unpopular 1d3 dmg has been...

D3 should average out to D2 so it's just smoothing the random. If it still has the 1 to hit or some other drawback - like always fights last - they love giving it Meh.

Well, flat 2 is a lot better than d3 when you are hitting something like primaris or bikes. d3 basically means an additional 5+ save for those units. Even before the points update, anyone who could would pick a killsaw over a PK for that reason.
But it really wouldn't change the problem that warbosses' damage is way to low for a dedicated HQ melee monster with no other function that tends to die after fighting once or twice.

If GW makes power klaws flat 2 and nothing else change they could just remove them entirely from the codex.

For the same points we can bring killsaws that are exactly the same weapon but AP-4, and they can also be taken in pairs granting +1A.

I know that D3 damage is worse than flat 2, but it's basically the only reason why someone could prefer a klaw instead of a killsaw. Because he feels lucky against 3W models.

An eventual change to flat 2 damage to klaws must necessarily come with other changes to either klaws themselves or killsaws or both.

 Blackie wrote:
If GW makes power klaws flat 2 and nothing else change they could just remove them entirely from the codex.

For the same points we can bring killsaws that are exactly the same weapon but AP-4, and they can also be taken in pairs granting +1A.

I know that D3 damage is worse than flat 2, but it's basically the only reason why someone could prefer a klaw instead of a killsaw. Because he feels lucky against 3W models.

An eventual change to flat 2 damage to klaws must necessarily come with other changes to either klaws themselves or killsaws or both.

Yeah...I can't see them just giving the 2 damage to klaws and leaving the points the same between Killsaws and PK. Worst case scenario, they just boost up the price of Killsaws to make the PK look "better" in terms of points efficiency, which would really suck. Or best case scenario, PK get 3 damage base while going up 5 points, while Killsaws stay the same. Now there's a tradeoff between more flat damage with less AP and attacks compared to Killsaws, and it makes regular MANZ hit a hell of a lot harder when going with their base equipment.

I think killsaws will probably go up in points as powerklaws have always been identical to power fists and they'll probably get the same profile with damage 2.

Maybe killsaws become 15 (20 for the pair) but with damage 4, like thunder hammers. Or "just" flat 3 or D6, who knows. But my guess is killsaws will be some sort of thunder hammers equivalents, aka more expensive than klaws but also more powerful.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, flat 2 is a lot better than d3 when you are hitting something like primaris or bikes.

Well yeah, obviously flat 2 is better vs 2 wound models when having a chance of 1 or 3 don’t help. But d3 averages 2, so it’s not a boost so much as flattening the high and low spikes. Isn’t that what I said originally?

d3 basically means an additional 5+ save for those units. Even before the points update, anyone who could would pick a killsaw over a PK for that reason.
But it really wouldn't change the problem that warbosses' damage is way to low for a dedicated HQ melee monster with no other function that tends to die after fighting once or twice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
I think killsaws will probably go up in points as powerklaws have always been identical to power fists and they'll probably get the same profile with damage 2.

Maybe killsaws become 15 (20 for the pair) but with damage 4, like thunder hammers. Or "just" flat 3 or D6, who knows. But my guess is killsaws will be some sort of thunder hammers equivalents, aka more expensive than klaws but also more powerful.

Maybe kill saws get reroll wounds, and +1A for two like lightning claws?

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, flat 2 is a lot better than d3 when you are hitting something like primaris or bikes.

Well yeah, obviously flat 2 is better vs 2 wound models when having a chance of 1 or 3 don’t help. But d3 averages 2, so it’s not a boost so much as flattening the high and low spikes. Isn’t that what I said originally?

Yes, you said that originally, and I disagreed with it. Going from d3 to flat 2 is a boost, because reliably killing 2 wound models is a very important thing to do.
That said that boost would not make PK worth taking, considering how we already have the killsaw.

Maybe kill saws get reroll wounds, and +1A for two like lightning claws?

Re-roll to wound wouldn't matter much, and they already get +1A for two. No model besides MANz can have more than one though. With just 3-4 attacks neither d3 nor 2 damage will ever threaten anything of worth.
What ork melee weapons are lacking is damage, nothing else - hence the reason why da killa klaw is used so much. If orks had access to thunder hammers all PKs and killsaws would instantly replaced by them on every possible model, 40 pts nor not.

 Jidmah wrote:

Yes, you said that originally, and I disagreed with it. Going from d3 to flat 2 is a boost, because reliably killing 2 wound models is a very important thing to do.
That said that boost would not make PK worth taking, considering how we already have the killsaw.

Exactly, on meganobz in particular damage 2 is far superior than D3. Against 2W or 4W models it's simply more reliable and against 3W models there's always the stratagem that puts killsaws at damage 3. Damage 2 vs D3 is basically the same only against vehicles or models with lots of wounds, and single wound bodies of course.

 Jidmah wrote:

If orks had access to thunder hammers all PKs and killsaws would instantly replaced by them on every possible model, 40 pts nor not.

They pay only 15 points for those, 40 is the price for characters.

It does not matter than d3 damage averages 2 because maybe your first roll is 1 damage and your second one is 3 damage and it is wasted. 2 damage is always better than d3 damage.

 Blackie wrote:
They pay only 15 points for those, 40 is the price for characters.

I stand by my word that I don't give a damn about what other armies get for what point cost. A weapon needs to makes sense in the context of its army irrespective of what other armies have.
A thunderhammer on a warboss would be decent even at 40 points, TH on regular nobz for 15 would probably be auto-takes.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
They pay only 15 points for those, 40 is the price for characters.

I stand by my word that I don't give a damn about what other armies get for what point cost. A weapon needs to makes sense in the context of its army irrespective of what other armies have.
A thunderhammer on a warboss would be decent even at 40 points, TH on regular nobz for 15 would probably be auto-takes.

To be honest, they are often auto takes for marines, too. People are even saying heavy intercessors are way less interesting over regular intercessors (although we don't have full info yet) *strictly* because the sarg cannot take a thunder hammer.

Regardless, the PK is insultingly bad. Kill Saws are actually fine, but unfortunately are not wide spread enough in the army. I really hope the new Ork codex unlocks the potential for a warboss to take a Kill Saw. Hell, if we get other good relics, it might even make me not take Da Killa Klaw, because I can already find ways of making Kill Saws good (Flat 3 with a Brutal but Kunnin) -- it's just not takeable on the precise platform you want it to be.

As a non-Ork player I think PKs should be a flat 3. It looks like a weapon that could gut my Tyranid warriors in one blow. Certainly tear the head, leg or breastplate off a terminator.

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, flat 2 is a lot better than d3 when you are hitting something like primaris or bikes.

Well yeah, obviously flat 2 is better vs 2 wound models when having a chance of 1 or 3 don’t help. But d3 averages 2, so it’s not a boost so much as flattening the high and low spikes. Isn’t that what I said originally?

Yes, you said that originally, and I disagreed with it. Going from d3 to flat 2 is a boost, because reliably killing 2 wound models is a very important thing to do.
That said that boost would not make PK worth taking, considering how we already have the killsaw.

. That’s ok, I don’t mind if you’re wrong. Trading a 33% chance to one-shot the incoming influx of 3 wound models for an extra 33% chance to one shot 2 wound models is far more side-grade than upgrade. Remember those 2W bikes you mentioned are probably going to 3 Wound bikes when Tacs go to 2W.

Maybe kill saws get reroll wounds, and +1A for two like lightning claws?

Re-roll to wound wouldn't matter much, and they already get +1A for two. No model besides MANz can have more than one though. With just 3-4 attacks neither d3 nor 2 damage will ever threaten anything of worth.

That’s Lightning Claws rules. I’m suggesting if you make one roughly parallel to fists/TH, make the other roughly comparable to Lightning Claws.

What ork melee weapons are lacking is damage, nothing else - hence the reason why da killa klaw is used so much. If orks had access to thunder hammers all PKs and killsaws would instantly replaced by them on every possible model, 40 pts nor not.

Thunder Hammers are getting nerfed. Or everything else is getting a boost. I would be only mildly surprised if they bring back strikes last for TH this edition to go with extra damage. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see it FAQed or supplemented back in before 10th. I more than half expect it in 10th. I’d be most surprised if they boost the rest of melee weapon damage to keep up with it.

Breton wrote:
That’s ok, I don’t mind if you’re wrong. Trading a 33% chance to one-shot the incoming influx of 3 wound models for an extra 33% chance to one shot 2 wound models is far more side-grade than upgrade. Remember those 2W bikes you mentioned are probably going to 3 Wound bikes when Tacs go to 2W.

No, I'm afraid you're wrong.

Against anything that is 2W d3 is just flat-out worse than flat 2 damage. 66% of the time you'll kill it with one unsaved wound, sure. But then 33% of the time you fail to do so. And the thing is, that 33% chance to do 3 damage does not in any way make up for doing 1 damage 33% of the time because damage doesn't carry over. If you roll a 1 then no matter what you have to roll damage again to kill that enemy model.

Against 3 wound models d3 is better sometimes but then there are those fun occasions where you roll three 1s to kill one model, when flat 2 will always allow you to kill it in two.

Against 4 wound models d3 is universally worse because it will always take at least two unsaved wounds to kill the enemy unit and sometimes can take fething four, when flat 2 damage will always kill it in two.

There is pretty much never a scenario where I'd prefer having d3 damage to a flat 2, and I know this because I play Custodes where every fething melee weapon is d3 damage. Reliability is always better than variance, and is especially so in melee where shitrolling can make your melee dude just bounce off something much less expensive than he is, like when I had a Bloodthirster just bounce off a basic ass dreadnought by rolling nothing but 1s and 2s for the damage.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Breton wrote:
That’s ok, I don’t mind if you’re wrong. Trading a 33% chance to one-shot the incoming influx of 3 wound models for an extra 33% chance to one shot 2 wound models is far more side-grade than upgrade. Remember those 2W bikes you mentioned are probably going to 3 Wound bikes when Tacs go to 2W.

No, I'm afraid you're wrong.

Against anything that is 2W d3 is just flat-out worse than flat 2 damage. 66% of the time you'll kill it with one unsaved wound, sure. But then 33% of the time you fail to do so. And the thing is, that 33% chance to do 3 damage does not in any way make up for doing 1 damage 33% of the time because damage doesn't carry over. If you roll a 1 then no matter what you have to roll damage again to kill that enemy model.

Yes, I'm absolutely wrong for pointing out that in this scenario there's a slight boost, while in that scenario it's a slight nerf. I particularly enjoy the part where you point out the scenario where Flat 2 is better like I didn't do so myself in the first place.

Against 3 wound models d3 is better sometimes but then there are those fun occasions where you roll three 1s to kill one model, when flat 2 will always allow you to kill it in two.

The guy who pretends I didn't point out 2W vs 3W scenarios chooses to specifically point out the 3 1's but not 3 3's scenario. An honest debate is always fun.

Against 4 wound models d3 is universally worse because it will always take at least two unsaved wounds to kill the enemy unit and sometimes can take fething four, when flat 2 damage will always kill it in two.

There is pretty much never a scenario where I'd prefer having d3 damage to a flat 2, and I know this because I play Custodes where every fething melee weapon is d3 damage. Reliability is always better than variance, and is especially so in melee where shitrolling can make your melee dude just bounce off something much less expensive than he is, like when I had a Bloodthirster just bounce off a basic ass dreadnought by rolling nothing but 1s and 2s for the damage.

Breton wrote:
That’s ok, I don’t mind if you’re wrong. Trading a 33% chance to one-shot the incoming influx of 3 wound models for an extra 33% chance to one shot 2 wound models is far more side-grade than upgrade. Remember those 2W bikes you mentioned are probably going to 3 Wound bikes when Tacs go to 2W.

Oh, you mean those bikes which absolutely no one takes? Because marines got much better bikes with 4 wounds against which a 2W weapons is far better once more? 3W models are not common at all. The two or three units you see per game can be blown up with KMB, rokkits or the killa klaw.
Trading a 33% chance to kill rare units for a 33% chance to kill one of the most common profiles in the game is not a side-grade.
And I suggest keeping the snark to yourself if you feel like complaining about "honest discussions" in the same post.

That’s Lightning Claws rules. I’m suggesting if you make one roughly parallel to fists/TH, make the other roughly comparable to Lightning Claws.

Why on earth would orks want trade their best melee weapon on their best melee unit for a gakky melee weapon no marine in any codex, both chaos and loyalist wants to use? I'm always surprised about this marine mindset that xenos weapons should not be better than the stuff they wouldn't even touch with a ten foot pole because it sucks so much.
Killsaws are the equivalent of chainfists by the way, but I can't blame anyone for forgetting about them if they can have TH instead.

Thunder Hammers are getting nerfed. Or everything else is getting a boost. I would be only mildly surprised if they bring back strikes last for TH this edition to go with extra damage. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see it FAQed or supplemented back in before 10th. I more than half expect it in 10th. I’d be most surprised if they boost the rest of melee weapon damage to keep up with it.

Is there a source for any of this? Orks also wouldn't care about striking last either. We've already done that for four editions. None of the ork melee specialists work because they can't threaten hard targets because they lack the damage to take them down and then get gunned down because the hard target just fell back. All units were designed around the fact that a single PK had a decent chance of severely damaging or destroying a vehicle or cause instant death to other multi-wound models, even if it meant taking a full round of combat to the face first.
The two sole exceptions to this rule are the one HQ with a relic that does more damage and the unit which has a stratagem that does more damage.

I think D3 damage is about 28% better versus 3 wound models than 2 damage, but 2 damage in turn is 20% better versus 2 wound models. If 3 wounds became a normal statline there might be an argument for it. There is however an argument that you want to protect against the downside more than hoping for the upside - i.e. rolling a load of 1s impacts your game more than that time you rolled a loads of 3s and overkilled it by miles.

With that said, Imo any weapon with a minus 1 to hit should be 3 damage (Hi there Archite Glaive). If the Thunder Hammer needs some special snowflakiness because Imperium gotta be better, then give it something in addition.

Well, it used to stun units, you could attach a "fights last" or -1 to hit debuff to it.

The problem that most d3 damage defenders forget is that yeah you can roll a 3 and kill a 3 wound model in one strike. But you can roll that 3 after rolling a 1 and it becomes useless because damage doesnt spill over.

As Void_Dragon, being a Custodes player, I would pay anything to have all our weapons become damage 2.

And it looks like thunder hammers are going to damage 4, so many -1 weapons can become flat damage 3.

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:
That’s ok, I don’t mind if you’re wrong. Trading a 33% chance to one-shot the incoming influx of 3 wound models for an extra 33% chance to one shot 2 wound models is far more side-grade than upgrade. Remember those 2W bikes you mentioned are probably going to 3 Wound bikes when Tacs go to 2W.

Oh, you mean those bikes which absolutely no one takes? Because marines got much better bikes with 4 wounds against which a 2W weapons is far better once more? 3W models are not common at all. The two or three units you see per game can be blown up with KMB, rokkits or the killa klaw.
Trading a 33% chance to kill rare units for a 33% chance to kill one of the most common profiles in the game is not a side-grade.
And I suggest keeping the snark to yourself if you feel like complaining about "honest discussions" in the same post.

Like the Tacticals noone takes that are going to 2W? To be fair, the Bikes may go to 4W. Bikes could be +1T +100% or +1W (i..e 3W or 4W) - too early to tell. By rare do you mean the Aggressors, Eradicators, and (potentially) Heavy Intercessors nobody takes, but everyone is complaining about? Bikes can take 2 Specials, and extra bikers, Outriders cannot. If Old Marines go 2A and 2W base Bikes could be more popular than Outriders. If they don't go 2A, probably not.

That’s Lightning Claws rules. I’m suggesting if you make one roughly parallel to fists/TH, make the other roughly comparable to Lightning Claws.

Why on earth would orks want trade their best melee weapon on their best melee unit for a gakky melee weapon no marine in any codex, both chaos and loyalist wants to use? I'm always surprised about this marine mindset that xenos weapons should not be better than the stuff they wouldn't even touch with a ten foot pole because it sucks so much.
Killsaws are the equivalent of chainfists by the way, but I can't blame anyone for forgetting about them if they can have TH instead.

Is there a source for you saying I think Xenos weapons shouldn't be "better" or is that easier than honesty? As you pointed out only MANz can take two, MANz are a corollary to Terminators thus TH/LC comparisons especially 2LC vs 2 saws making two different and useful instead of two overlapping neither good options.

Thunder Hammers are getting nerfed. Or everything else is getting a boost. I would be only mildly surprised if they bring back strikes last for TH this edition to go with extra damage. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see it FAQed or supplemented back in before 10th. I more than half expect it in 10th. I’d be most surprised if they boost the rest of melee weapon damage to keep up with it.

Is there a source for any of this? Orks also wouldn't care about striking last either. We've already done that for four editions. None of the ork melee specialists work because they can't threaten hard targets because they lack the damage to take them down and then get gunned down because the hard target just fell back. All units were designed around the fact that a single PK had a decent chance of severely damaging or destroying a vehicle or cause instant death to other multi-wound models, even if it meant taking a full round of combat to the face first.
The two sole exceptions to this rule are the one HQ with a relic that does more damage and the unit which has a stratagem that does more damage.

No, there's no source for a prediction beyond past GW performance and tendencies. Did I say Orks would care about striking last? I don't see where I mentioned anything other than predicting TH would get a negative rule to offset their boost sometimes soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
The problem that most d3 damage defenders forget is that yeah you can roll a 3 and kill a 3 wound model in one strike. But you can roll that 3 after rolling a 1 and it becomes useless because damage doesnt spill over.

As Void_Dragon, being a Custodes player, I would pay anything to have all our weapons become damage 2.

And it looks like thunder hammers are going to damage 4, so many -1 weapons can become flat damage 3.

It looks like the D3D weapons are going Flat 2 not Flat 3. I think Fists went flat 2.

The extra damage from 2x D2 don't spill over either.

I absolutely agree a Flat 2 is easier and more comfortable to work with than D3D, but its not really a performance upgrade, is it? I mean you still lose damage to overkill on 3W right?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, obviously the most powerful ork HQ hitting like a wet noodle up to the point where where it is unplayable without a relics bad design.
PKs are just utterly terrible weapons - the number of powerfists across marine and eldar lists are pretty telling. There are plenty examples of PF relics which do slightly less then the killa klaw, and none of them ever see play anywhere. Because they suck. You need these amounts of buffs to make a PK/PF worthwhile.

However, the quality of GW's rules is completely off topic. Either a warboss/klever big mek with killa klaw is a problem or it isn't. Everything else is irrelevant.

there is however, a light at the end of the tunnel. IIRC the power fist is getting a revision in the marines codex, so Orks can expect the Power Klaw to be similarily upgraded when they get their codex. it'll be frustrating to have to wait, but at least we know GW reckongizes their mistake

True, presumably because they are identical weapons we'll be seeing the same rebalance where powerfist-equivalent gets slightly buffed and chainfist-equivalent gets slightly nerfed.

In some ways though, i've started to view being an NPC codex as an advantage. GW's too lazy to hand out obvious rules fixes to non-marine codexes in a reasonable timeframe, but they're also too lazy to hand out obvious rules nerfs! So yes I will enjoy my lack of CORE restrictions, obvious auto-take weapon choices, etc until my codexes actually come out.

Breton wrote:


I absolutely agree a Flat 2 is easier and more comfortable to work with than D3D, but its not really a performance upgrade, is it? I mean you still lose damage to overkill on 3W right?

It depends on the unit with damage 2 weapons. Meganobz for example, basically the only ork unit with multiple melee damage 2 weapons, have a stratagem to increase their damage by 1. So they can be damage 3 if they need to be, for example against 3W models, and those killsaws outperform power klaws in any possible way. Unless we really consider a downside paying 40 points for a model instead of 38. D3 damage can also mean 3 unsaved wound rolls against 3W models if the first two damage rolls are 1, while damage 2 is overkill but there isn't any chance to waste 3 successfull wound rolls for a single enemy model.

Breton wrote:
Like the Tacticals noone takes that are going to 2W?

Now you are the one arguing in bad faith. Not just tacticals, but the entire marines codex minus scouts will be 2W. Especially all the primaris marines everyone is already playing and which are unlikely to just vanish into thin air.

To be fair, the Bikes may go to 4W. Bikes could be +1T +100% or +1W (i..e 3W or 4W) - too early to tell.

You were the one to bring them up *shrug*
If it's to early to tell, your argument has been debunked.

By rare do you mean the Aggressors, Eradicators, and (potentially) Heavy Intercessors nobody takes, but everyone is complaining about?

In reality, you are unlikely to see more than ~12-15 gravis models in a marine army because they cost so much. Especially the ones you mentioned need to be killed through shooting before melee ever becomes an option. You also really don't want to assault aggressors with an ork unit.
I have no opinion about heavy intercessors, but I don't see marines exclusively switching to them unless their points are insanely low - at which points the next CA will axe them. But as you said yourself, it's too early to tell.

Bikes can take 2 Specials, and extra bikers, Outriders cannot. If Old Marines go 2A and 2W base Bikes could be more popular than Outriders. If they don't go 2A, probably not.

We already know they won't be going to 2A from the leaked datasheets. So this argument debunked as well.

As you pointed out only MANz can take two, MANz are a corollary to Terminators thus TH/LC comparisons especially 2LC vs 2 saws making two different and useful instead of two overlapping neither good options.

Terminators get neither TH nor LC though. They get PF and chainfists, just like MANz. From the leaks we know chainfists are going to d3 damage, so the same might happen to killsaws.

Did I say Orks would care about striking last? I don't see where I mentioned anything other than predicting TH would get a negative rule to offset their boost sometimes soon.

There is no need to be this defensive. You are posting in a thread discussing orks, and I merely responded that orks would even gladly take those nerfed TH as long as they provide 3 damage per unsaved wound.

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:
Like the Tacticals noone takes that are going to 2W?

Now you are the one arguing in bad faith. Not just tacticals, but the entire marines codex minus scouts will be 2W. Especially all the primaris marines everyone is already playing and which are unlikely to just vanish into thin air.

For pointing out the most obvious but not a full list? Sure. And if mentioning only the Tacs was bad faith, what is claiming the entire codex will be 2W and not mentioning all the 3W Gravis, 3W Terminators, 4W Attack bikes, and so on and so on? That's OK, don't bother answering. Its Different When You Do It.

To be fair, the Bikes may go to 4W. Bikes could be +1T +100% or +1W (i..e 3W or 4W) - too early to tell.

You were the one to bring them up *shrug*

Actually you were, but why start with honesty now?

Jidmah wrote:Well, flat 2 is a lot better than d3 when you are hitting something like primaris or bikes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

As you pointed out only MANz can take two, MANz are a corollary to Terminators thus TH/LC comparisons especially 2LC vs 2 saws making two different and useful instead of two overlapping neither good options.

Terminators get neither TH nor LC though. They get PF and chainfists, just like MANz. From the leaks we know chainfists are going to d3 damage, so the same might happen to killsaws.

My TH/SS and TwinLC Terminators are going to be shocked as hell they have power fists and chainfirsts.

Did I say Orks would care about striking last? I don't see where I mentioned anything other than predicting TH would get a negative rule to offset their boost sometimes soon.

There is no need to be this defensive. You are posting in a thread discussing orks, and I merely responded that orks would even gladly take those nerfed TH as long as they provide 3 damage per unsaved wound.

There's no need to be defensive as I put words in your mouth, and then ad hom you for those words. That I put in your mouth.

Turn it in lads, you're boring as F, no one cares.

Back to the point of the thread. What do I think about the meta? Won some games, lost others, getting to try out different army lists and styles. It's all early doors and our codex hasn't dropped yet.

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:
Like the Tacticals noone takes that are going to 2W?

Now you are the one arguing in bad faith. Not just tacticals, but the entire marines codex minus scouts will be 2W. Especially all the primaris marines everyone is already playing and which are unlikely to just vanish into thin air.

For pointing out the most obvious but not a full list? Sure. And if mentioning only the Tacs was bad faith, what is claiming the entire codex will be 2W and not mentioning all the 3W Gravis, 3W Terminators, 4W Attack bikes, and so on and so on? That's OK, don't bother answering. Its Different When You Do It.

Seriously? Arguing in bad faith and then moving goal post in bad faith to argue that the other person is doing it? You are one of the worst people to argue with on this forum. You are impolite, twist and turn your own and other's words to fit whatever point you want to be true and every one of your posts reeks of logical fallacies.
You counter-argument to d3 being better than flat 2 was cleary that tacticals were not being played, while fully knowing that the vast majority of units would either be 2 or 4 wounds.

Actually you were, but why start with honesty now?

Jidmah wrote:Well, flat 2 is a lot better than d3 when you are hitting something like primaris or bikes.

The hell? Nice job taking that one out of context and moving more goalposts
I wasn't talking about marine bikes, but bikes in general like tomb blades, shininig spears, warbikers and so on. Oh and actual marine bikes which are 2 wounds right now.
You were the one to claim that *marine* bikes were going to 3 wounds and therefore d3 was superior against them. To which you then replied that we can't know yet whether they'll go up. You have proven yourself wrong.

Breton wrote:
My TH/SS and TwinLC Terminators are going to be shocked as hell they have power fists and chainfirsts.

They'll be more shocked to learn that their owner is intentionally confusing terminators and assault terminators for yet another bad faith argument.

Considering you are investing vastly more energy into being impolite and condescending than into your arguments or checking facts, I have no interest in reading any post from you ever again. Your contribution to this forum is less than worthless, so I'll use the technical means of dakka to improve the quality of content visible to me.

 Jidmah wrote:

Actually you were, but why start with honesty now?

Jidmah wrote:Well, flat 2 is a lot better than d3 when you are hitting something like primaris or bikes.

The hell? Nice job taking that one out of context and moving more goalposts
I wasn't talking about marine bikes, but bikes in general like tomb blades, shininig spears, warbikers and so on. Oh and actual marine bikes which are 2 wounds right now.
You were the one to claim that *marine* bikes were going to 3 wounds and therefore d3 was superior against them. To which you then replied that we can't know yet whether they'll go up. You have proven yourself wrong.

So Primaris and ALL THE OTHER BIKES EVER.

Breton wrote:
My TH/SS and TwinLC Terminators are going to be shocked as hell they have power fists and chainfirsts.

They'll be more shocked to learn that their owner is intentionally confusing terminators and assault terminators for yet another bad faith argument.

Last I checked they were all terminators. Cataphracti, Tartaros, Shooty, Assault, Deathwing, etc. They're all referred to as Terminators with the two seat butt size.

Considering you are investing vastly more energy into being impolite and condescending than into your arguments or checking facts, I have no interest in reading any post from you ever again. Your contribution to this forum is less than worthless, so I'll use the technical means of dakka to improve the quality of content visible to me.

Well that was certainly polite and more interested in correcting the facts while complaining when I actually DID point out Bikes could actually be a different Stat Modifier than assumed.. I give back what I get, so perhaps a mirror isn't a good look for you. See ya.