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2020/09/16 20:16:41
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Wicked Wych With a Whip
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Racerguy180 wrote:catbarf wrote:
Here I thought that the army's core identity was being flexible jack-of-all-trades units with good base statlines at a premium cost.
If the army's identity came to actually revolve around blobbing up and eliminating randomness through tedious and time-consuming re-rolls, good riddance.
why the hell was that the armys identity? it most certainly wasnt for me.
all this powergamer bs being gotten rid of is better for the game.
Agreed. Factions identity based on cheesy interactions are not fun for me. I prefer more tactics and cool stuff.
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The Bloody Sails
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2020/09/16 20:17:48
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Most Marine INFANTRY will get CORE. My prediction only. It’ll avoid craziness like Leviathans or Relic Contemptors that simply can’t miss. It’s gonna be a fun, positive change I think!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 20:17:57
Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2020/09/16 20:20:52
Subject: Re:No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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Now Kharn isn't going to feel like a dunce anymore for not being able to reroll his melee attacks.
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2020/09/16 20:21:04
Subject: Re:No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Fixture of Dakka
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Ghaz wrote:Am I the only one expecting a "Core if" mechanic (e.g., Necron Destroyers are core if the warlord is a Destroyer Lord)?
You're not alone. I can easily see that happening. Just like in AoS where certain units become "Battleline" if the general is ____, or if you took a unit of x.
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2020/09/16 20:21:12
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:You certainly can if the unit isn't too powerful to begin with. Look at the complaints with Aggressors for example. They talked about hoping they dont get Core because of the double shooting. Ya think maybe the latter part is ACTUALLY the problem?
How threatening is double shooting without rerolls? It also doesn't solve much in regards to dreads.
Aggressors double tapping with full rerolls on to T4 = 71
Without rerolls = 48
Without double tap, but with rerolls = 35
Without double tap or rerolls = 24
Seems like you might crater Aggressors with their slow movement and low range.
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2020/09/16 20:22:40
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yes.
You can still have your stupid intercessors - or heavy intercessors - hitting 8 out 9 times, and wounding 14 out of 18 times, and having all the AP (unless that gets taken too - come on GW, you know it makes sense).
You hopefully just can't boost the damage output of already faintly ludicrous tanks/monsters by 55% so will allow for GW to balance them more accurately (maybe #newGW #playtesters etc etc).
FWIW I think its sensible. There is a major difference for instance between a Ravager, and a Ravager that rerolls 1s to hit and 1s to wound. Since not taking the second is ultimately irrational, everything ends up balanced around taking those buffs, which in turn hinders balance and limits design space.
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2020/09/16 20:26:23
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Fixture of Dakka
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Xenomancers wrote:I know this core keyword with auras is a bad fix because it doesn't even fix aggressors or eradicators getting rerolls...But bad units like repulsors are actually called out as not getting the buffs. Heck if they drop in points a bunch I'll be ecstatic...I am realistic though. They will probably go UP in price.
While it is possible, let's not jump the gun on assuming what is and isn't going to be CORE. So far, we know of exactly three SM units with it, AFAIK - Heavy Intercessors, Terminator squads and Bike squads.
While I'd say Troops units are likely to be CORE, I'm making no further assumptions until I see the book - same for the 'Crons.
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2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG
My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote:This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote:You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling. - No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... |
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2020/09/16 20:27:28
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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Good change, even watching batreps gets annoying when everything under the sun gets rerolls of some kind
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2020/09/16 20:28:44
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Powerful Ushbati
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Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:
"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."
In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?
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2020/09/16 20:29:53
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Dakka Veteran
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Just throwing this in here, since the main talk about the changes to auras has been Space Marines. Frontline Gaming did mention in their podcast today that there are many other major changes in the book to overperforming units. They also discussed the change to auras, but take from that what you may.
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2020/09/16 20:30:15
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Daedalus81 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:You certainly can if the unit isn't too powerful to begin with. Look at the complaints with Aggressors for example. They talked about hoping they dont get Core because of the double shooting. Ya think maybe the latter part is ACTUALLY the problem?
How threatening is double shooting without rerolls? It also doesn't solve much in regards to dreads.
Aggressors double tapping with full rerolls on to T4 = 71
Without rerolls = 48
Without double tap, but with rerolls = 35
Without double tap or rerolls = 24
Seems like you might crater Aggressors with their slow movement and low range.
Yeah no-one is going to be crying if Agressors disappeared from play.
The balance has been so out of orbit imbalanced since marine 2.0 codex simply put it's the one gimic list that wasn't gutted rules qise in the change from 8th to 9th.
Count yourself luck people arn't dancing on the grave of codex marines as a competitive codex, as I think a lot of people are at that point of fed up. Heck when you have one of the biggest Self proclaimed Primaris Fanboys outright come out and say Marines especially Primaris are OP you know GW went Tooooooooooooooo far.
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2020/09/16 20:32:29
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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I kinda hoped that they would have replaced the marine auras with IG style commands but this still certainly is an improvement.
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2020/09/16 20:37:59
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Togusa wrote:Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:
"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."
In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?
Garage Hammer is pretty irrelevant for balance discussions though. I saw a game in 8th where a Relic Blade Vanguard Sergeant killed a Dreadnought in one go, but I'm not gonna recommend people do that. That would be silly.
Repulsors would need a price cut because they were partly priced for being in a reroll aura.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 20:53:28
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2020/09/16 20:40:04
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Togusa wrote:Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:
"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."
In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?
Table Hammer is pretty irrelevant for balance discussions though.
That's an interesting take. . .
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2020/09/16 20:53:14
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Insectum7 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Togusa wrote:Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:
"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."
In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?
Table Hammer is pretty irrelevant for balance discussions though.
That's an interesting take. . .
I guess I should have said Garagehammer
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2020/09/16 20:56:49
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Disbeliever of the Greater Good
USA
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Seems like they might also be targeting Forgeworld models. Kind of hope at least some of the xenos ones get the core keyword. Probably won't though.
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2020/09/16 21:00:19
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Twice as threatening as single shooting without re-rolls.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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2020/09/16 21:00:46
Subject: Re:No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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I'm going to predict that core units for Marines will be most Infantry Bikes and dreads. GW has shown, repeatedly, that that is what they see as the "core" of the Marine army
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2020/09/16 21:01:39
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The limiting auras to <CORE> bit is an ok change in theory. In reality, it all depends on how generous they are with the keyword, and specifically whether they give it to Space Marine Gravis elites. If they do, it may ironically end up being yet another one of those things that actually punishes Space Marines less than everybody else.
Then there's also the weirdness of things like devastators (assuming they don't get <CORE> ) being worse at hitting stuff than a space marine in a tac squad armed with the same weapon. Which feels really dumb. But on the other hand, if you do give devastators <CORE>, then that has its own host of problems re: making infantry even more clearly superior than tanks as an anti-tank platform.
I don't really like the making auras not work on the characters themselves, as it leads to stupid things like librarians being worse at hitting stuff than stock troopers, and chaos lords being worse at hitting stuff than units buffed with prescience. I don't see a great argument for why characters should be less reliable at hitting stuff than modestly buffed troops.
There's also the issue that, taken to extremes, you get really stupid stuff like a shadowseer's -1 to wound aura not impacting himself, or even a KFF not working on the owner. But I expect that not even GW would be that silly.
All that said...it would have been better just to nerf auras in the first place. This could still end up being that if the <CORE> list is extremely restrictive (e.g. for space marines, ONLY troops + stuff like termies and vanguard vets, no gravis infantry besides heavy intercessors, no vehicles, MAYBE bikes).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 21:06:36
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2020/09/16 21:03:54
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Togusa wrote:Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:
"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."
In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?
Garage Hammer is pretty irrelevant for balance discussions though. I saw a game in 8th where a Relic Blade Vanguard Sergeant killed a Dreadnought in one go, but I'm not gonna recommend people do that. That would be silly.
Repulsors would need a price cut because they were partly priced for being in a reroll aura.
This is something that's getting mentioned a lot today. How can you be sure they're priced with rerolls in mind?
It's not like you're assured rerolls, you can build a list without if you wished.you
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2020/09/16 21:08:24
Subject: Re:No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Charictors I get as Nothing should be hitting 97% of the time like chapter Masters and Captains currently do.
That reroll on a 2+ is ironically better than a 1+ WS.
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2020/09/16 21:12:12
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Plenty of things besides characters can hit on a 2+ rerolling 1s, though. Almost anything in the heretic astartes faction, for example. Or terminators in almost every space marine faction. Basically the entire space wolf faction. Etc etc.
Space Wolves in particular will be in the very odd situation of having their basic troops usually hitting more reliably than Ragnar Blackmane.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 21:13:21
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2020/09/16 21:19:54
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Crimson wrote:I kinda hoped that they would have replaced the marine auras with IG style commands but this still certainly is an improvement.
Following the trend, I feel like this will also even out the oddity of two tank commanders issues orders on each other/tank commander issuing order on itself.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 21:20:02
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2020/09/16 21:22:10
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Dudeface wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Togusa wrote:Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:
"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."
In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?
Garage Hammer is pretty irrelevant for balance discussions though. I saw a game in 8th where a Relic Blade Vanguard Sergeant killed a Dreadnought in one go, but I'm not gonna recommend people do that. That would be silly.
Repulsors would need a price cut because they were partly priced for being in a reroll aura.
This is something that's getting mentioned a lot today. How can you be sure they're priced with rerolls in mind?
It's not like you're assured rerolls, you can build a list without if you wished.you
Uh you DID see the price of them and the pretty low firepower for the price right? It's basically the same situation with Land Raiders: they pay too much for transport capacity and all the weapons at the same time.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2020/09/16 21:29:56
Subject: No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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This is a fantastic change, love it to bits. I half-wonder if certain characters will lose their re-roll aura entirely due to not really being "commander" units. Daemon Princes, for example, could lose their re-roll aura entirely in favor of something more selfish.
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2020/09/16 21:31:02
Subject: Re:No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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So wait - do we KNOW Repulsors aren't getting the benefits? Because I could easily see the baseline Repulsor getting CORE because it's a dedicated transport, but the Executioner not getting it.
Of course, in the face of that, I could also see Predators getting it just so GW has a reason to sell some again ...
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Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." |
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2020/09/16 21:32:14
Subject: Re:No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Tycho wrote:So wait - do we KNOW Repulsors aren't getting the benefits? Because I could easily see the baseline Repulsor getting CORE because it's a dedicated transport, but the Executioner not getting it.
Of course, in the face of that, I could also see Predators getting it just so GW has a reason to sell some again ...
No-one knows anything that isn’t in that WHC article. People are but speculating.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2020/09/16 21:34:49
Subject: Re:No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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No-one knows anything that isn’t in that WHC article. People are but speculating.
Thank you. That's what I thought but wasn't sure if I missed something ...
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Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." |
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2020/09/16 21:34:54
Subject: Re:No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Dakka Veteran
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This sounds like a good change. But, I would soooo like to see a more active representation of C&C, like commanders using CP to give orders during the command phase.
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2020/09/16 21:37:08
Subject: Re:No more rerolls for non-CORE units
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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Tycho wrote:So wait - do we KNOW Repulsors aren't getting the benefits? Because I could easily see the baseline Repulsor getting CORE because it's a dedicated transport, but the Executioner not getting it.
Of course, in the face of that, I could also see Predators getting it just so GW has a reason to sell some again ...
GW has always considered the core of a marine army it's infantry, bikes and dreads. tanks are supposed to be the "occasional support unit" so I expect the rules to reflect that
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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