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Racerguy180 wrote:

catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Now the armies core identity has been deleted.

Here I thought that the army's core identity was being flexible jack-of-all-trades units with good base statlines at a premium cost.

If the army's identity came to actually revolve around blobbing up and eliminating randomness through tedious and time-consuming re-rolls, good riddance.

why the hell was that the armys identity? it most certainly wasnt for me.

all this powergamer bs being gotten rid of is better for the game.

Agreed. Factions identity based on cheesy interactions are not fun for me. I prefer more tactics and cool stuff.

Most Marine INFANTRY will get CORE. My prediction only. It’ll avoid craziness like Leviathans or Relic Contemptors that simply can’t miss. It’s gonna be a fun, positive change I think!

Now Kharn isn't going to feel like a dunce anymore for not being able to reroll his melee attacks.

 Ghaz wrote:
Am I the only one expecting a "Core if" mechanic (e.g., Necron Destroyers are core if the warlord is a Destroyer Lord)?

You're not alone. I can easily see that happening. Just like in AoS where certain units become "Battleline" if the general is ____, or if you took a unit of x.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You certainly can if the unit isn't too powerful to begin with. Look at the complaints with Aggressors for example. They talked about hoping they dont get Core because of the double shooting. Ya think maybe the latter part is ACTUALLY the problem?

How threatening is double shooting without rerolls? It also doesn't solve much in regards to dreads.

Aggressors double tapping with full rerolls on to T4 = 71
Without rerolls = 48
Without double tap, but with rerolls = 35
Without double tap or rerolls = 24

Seems like you might crater Aggressors with their slow movement and low range.

Yes.
You can still have your stupid intercessors - or heavy intercessors - hitting 8 out 9 times, and wounding 14 out of 18 times, and having all the AP (unless that gets taken too - come on GW, you know it makes sense).
You hopefully just can't boost the damage output of already faintly ludicrous tanks/monsters by 55% so will allow for GW to balance them more accurately (maybe #newGW #playtesters etc etc).

FWIW I think its sensible. There is a major difference for instance between a Ravager, and a Ravager that rerolls 1s to hit and 1s to wound. Since not taking the second is ultimately irrational, everything ends up balanced around taking those buffs, which in turn hinders balance and limits design space.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I know this core keyword with auras is a bad fix because it doesn't even fix aggressors or eradicators getting rerolls...But bad units like repulsors are actually called out as not getting the buffs. Heck if they drop in points a bunch I'll be ecstatic...I am realistic though. They will probably go UP in price.

While it is possible, let's not jump the gun on assuming what is and isn't going to be CORE. So far, we know of exactly three SM units with it, AFAIK - Heavy Intercessors, Terminator squads and Bike squads.

While I'd say Troops units are likely to be CORE, I'm making no further assumptions until I see the book - same for the 'Crons.

Good change, even watching batreps gets annoying when everything under the sun gets rerolls of some kind

Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:

"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."

In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?

Just throwing this in here, since the main talk about the changes to auras has been Space Marines. Frontline Gaming did mention in their podcast today that there are many other major changes in the book to overperforming units. They also discussed the change to auras, but take from that what you may.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You certainly can if the unit isn't too powerful to begin with. Look at the complaints with Aggressors for example. They talked about hoping they dont get Core because of the double shooting. Ya think maybe the latter part is ACTUALLY the problem?

How threatening is double shooting without rerolls? It also doesn't solve much in regards to dreads.

Aggressors double tapping with full rerolls on to T4 = 71
Without rerolls = 48
Without double tap, but with rerolls = 35
Without double tap or rerolls = 24

Seems like you might crater Aggressors with their slow movement and low range.

Yeah no-one is going to be crying if Agressors disappeared from play.

The balance has been so out of orbit imbalanced since marine 2.0 codex simply put it's the one gimic list that wasn't gutted rules qise in the change from 8th to 9th.

Count yourself luck people arn't dancing on the grave of codex marines as a competitive codex, as I think a lot of people are at that point of fed up. Heck when you have one of the biggest Self proclaimed Primaris Fanboys outright come out and say Marines especially Primaris are OP you know GW went Tooooooooooooooo far.

I kinda hoped that they would have replaced the marine auras with IG style commands but this still certainly is an improvement.

 Togusa wrote:
Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:

"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."

In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?

Garage Hammer is pretty irrelevant for balance discussions though. I saw a game in 8th where a Relic Blade Vanguard Sergeant killed a Dreadnought in one go, but I'm not gonna recommend people do that. That would be silly.
Repulsors would need a price cut because they were partly priced for being in a reroll aura.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:

"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."

In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?

Table Hammer is pretty irrelevant for balance discussions though.

That's an interesting take. . .

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:

"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."

In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?

Table Hammer is pretty irrelevant for balance discussions though.

That's an interesting take. . .

I guess I should have said Garagehammer

Seems like they might also be targeting Forgeworld models. Kind of hope at least some of the xenos ones get the core keyword. Probably won't though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

How threatening is double shooting without rerolls?

Twice as threatening as single shooting without re-rolls.

I'm going to predict that core units for Marines will be most Infantry Bikes and dreads. GW has shown, repeatedly, that that is what they see as the "core" of the Marine army

The limiting auras to <CORE> bit is an ok change in theory. In reality, it all depends on how generous they are with the keyword, and specifically whether they give it to Space Marine Gravis elites. If they do, it may ironically end up being yet another one of those things that actually punishes Space Marines less than everybody else.

Then there's also the weirdness of things like devastators (assuming they don't get <CORE> ) being worse at hitting stuff than a space marine in a tac squad armed with the same weapon. Which feels really dumb. But on the other hand, if you do give devastators <CORE>, then that has its own host of problems re: making infantry even more clearly superior than tanks as an anti-tank platform.

I don't really like the making auras not work on the characters themselves, as it leads to stupid things like librarians being worse at hitting stuff than stock troopers, and chaos lords being worse at hitting stuff than units buffed with prescience. I don't see a great argument for why characters should be less reliable at hitting stuff than modestly buffed troops.

There's also the issue that, taken to extremes, you get really stupid stuff like a shadowseer's -1 to wound aura not impacting himself, or even a KFF not working on the owner. But I expect that not even GW would be that silly.

All that said...it would have been better just to nerf auras in the first place. This could still end up being that if the <CORE> list is extremely restrictive (e.g. for space marines, ONLY troops + stuff like termies and vanguard vets, no gravis infantry besides heavy intercessors, no vehicles, MAYBE bikes).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:

"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."

In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?

Garage Hammer is pretty irrelevant for balance discussions though. I saw a game in 8th where a Relic Blade Vanguard Sergeant killed a Dreadnought in one go, but I'm not gonna recommend people do that. That would be silly.
Repulsors would need a price cut because they were partly priced for being in a reroll aura.

This is something that's getting mentioned a lot today. How can you be sure they're priced with rerolls in mind?

It's not like you're assured rerolls, you can build a list without if you wished.you

The Charictors I get as Nothing should be hitting 97% of the time like chapter Masters and Captains currently do.
That reroll on a 2+ is ironically better than a 1+ WS.

Plenty of things besides characters can hit on a 2+ rerolling 1s, though. Almost anything in the heretic astartes faction, for example. Or terminators in almost every space marine faction. Basically the entire space wolf faction. Etc etc.

Space Wolves in particular will be in the very odd situation of having their basic troops usually hitting more reliably than Ragnar Blackmane.

 Crimson wrote:
I kinda hoped that they would have replaced the marine auras with IG style commands but this still certainly is an improvement.

Following the trend, I feel like this will also even out the oddity of two tank commanders issues orders on each other/tank commander issuing order on itself.

Dudeface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Xenomancer wrote in the other thread:

"Well It makes repulsors unplayable...and they are already unplayable."

In what way? I played with mine in a game two days ago at my house and it did just fine. Is this one of those "It's not A+++ OP NUTS" therefore it cannot ever touch a table top, trashist of trash type comments?

Garage Hammer is pretty irrelevant for balance discussions though. I saw a game in 8th where a Relic Blade Vanguard Sergeant killed a Dreadnought in one go, but I'm not gonna recommend people do that. That would be silly.
Repulsors would need a price cut because they were partly priced for being in a reroll aura.

This is something that's getting mentioned a lot today. How can you be sure they're priced with rerolls in mind?

It's not like you're assured rerolls, you can build a list without if you wished.you

Uh you DID see the price of them and the pretty low firepower for the price right? It's basically the same situation with Land Raiders: they pay too much for transport capacity and all the weapons at the same time.

This is a fantastic change, love it to bits. I half-wonder if certain characters will lose their re-roll aura entirely due to not really being "commander" units. Daemon Princes, for example, could lose their re-roll aura entirely in favor of something more selfish.

So wait - do we KNOW Repulsors aren't getting the benefits? Because I could easily see the baseline Repulsor getting CORE because it's a dedicated transport, but the Executioner not getting it.

Of course, in the face of that, I could also see Predators getting it just so GW has a reason to sell some again ...

Tycho wrote:
So wait - do we KNOW Repulsors aren't getting the benefits? Because I could easily see the baseline Repulsor getting CORE because it's a dedicated transport, but the Executioner not getting it.

Of course, in the face of that, I could also see Predators getting it just so GW has a reason to sell some again ...

No-one knows anything that isn’t in that WHC article. People are but speculating.

No-one knows anything that isn’t in that WHC article. People are but speculating.

Thank you. That's what I thought but wasn't sure if I missed something ...

This sounds like a good change. But, I would soooo like to see a more active representation of C&C, like commanders using CP to give orders during the command phase.

Tycho wrote:
So wait - do we KNOW Repulsors aren't getting the benefits? Because I could easily see the baseline Repulsor getting CORE because it's a dedicated transport, but the Executioner not getting it.

Of course, in the face of that, I could also see Predators getting it just so GW has a reason to sell some again ...

GW has always considered the core of a marine army it's infantry, bikes and dreads. tanks are supposed to be the "occasional support unit" so I expect the rules to reflect that