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 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Could prepare a sound argumentation but this point already tells me that you are not interested in the least to have a discussion, you are just here to whine.

Try me. If anything, people accuse me of discussing things too much.

Seriously, if you really think that T4 to T5 isn't worth the jump from 17 to 20 points on a 2W infantry model, then whatever argumentation used will just be thrown to the wind.

Your math adds up to 24, not 20 AND ignores or hand-waves all advantages tacticals have over plague marines.

What advantage does a tactical marine have beyond 1" of movement?

The ability to take heavy weapons.
-1 AP on their Bolters Turn 2 and sometimes 3.
Whatever their Chapter Tactic and Super Doctrine gives them, potentially including a 6+++.

1. Plague Marines have their special weapons available. All the Heavy weapon does is encourage a camping unit, and for that you have Pox Walkers and Cultists. Not a real advantage. Pass.
2. You're getting into the Doctrine Mechanic, and it was revealed that Death Guard are getting something similar. Pass until more is revealed.
3. Surprise Surprise, Plague Marines are available to Iron Warriors, Black Legion, Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion, some of which are already okay-ish. The core for Death Guard is always double tapping with the Bolters, Chaos players got what they whined for with a mechanic to help ignore morale, AND we still haven't seen everything yet. Super hard fething pass.

So no it IS just whining to whine because NOW you're not rolling for the strictly better durability of W+1 and -1 to damage. Rolling to potentially save a W1 or even a W2 Terminator from four or five dice was a waste of time statistically.

 Castozor wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
I play this army for it's durability, taking that away

You get an extra point of toughness on your basic Marines, and universally reduce all incoming damage by 1. Your durability has increased on your basic infantry, and is sometimes better and sometimes worse for your vehicles, and we have no idea what is happening to W1 models or stratagems/characters that previously buffed DR.

This is ridiculous.

No it hasn't, it's only better against D2 and 2 wounds on marines was a given. Something I'm assuming we pay the points for too. DR as a rule was hard gutted. It's not sometimes worse, it's always worse except specifically against D2 were it's better and D3 were it's a wash.

Well the army has other things that arent just Plague Marines. Possessed, Blightlords, Deathshroud, these have 3 wounds each. Suddenly they are making damage 3 a 2. You need 2 damage 3 wounds to go through to kill a terminator when before he would still die with his 2 wounds 5++. Whats the most prolific damage type in the game? 1, D3 and 2. Where are all these damage 3 weapons coming from? Is your opponent nothing but Orks with Rokkit Launchers or just Space Marines with waves of Thunderhammers? Whatever big bad thing killed them before will still kill them now, but instead they get additional protection from the more common weapons that would kill them. Plasma/Heavy Bolters/Autocannons/Power Fists/etc.

What gets more effected is your vehicles. But again they were getting too durable, with the 4++ 5+++ from PA. Its becoming a trend for 9th ed for things to die quicker as weapons get more shots, more AP, more damage. The new DR is more of a sidegrade than a nerf or buff. Plague Marines are still a durable Troops unit, but even they shouldnt be able to take a Lascannon beam to the torso and live, they are still mortal after all.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

Again, this was my statement. That's backed by math.

If you want to ignore the math, you can-but that seems like a silly thing to do.

Edit: Before, a Plague Marine had a 8.32% chance of living through an unsaved Lascannon wound.

Now, they have a 1/3 chance.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Spoiler:

 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

Is it? How so?

Let's say you have 12 wounds.

You take 12 damage. FNP 5+ saves 4 of those, leaving you with 4 wounds.
You take 4 more damage. FNP 5+ saves 4/3 of those, leaving you with 4/3 wounds.
You take 4/3 damage. FNP 5+ saves 4/9 of those.

Continue ad nauseum, and the limit approaches 18-for a 50% increase.

For quick calculation, take the reciprocal of the odds of FAILING a FNP roll. 2/3 is your odds of failure, so 3/2 is your effective wound multiplier.

How does this affect 1 wound models though? You take 12 damage, you save 4 guys. You didnt save half of the damage but instead a third. You might need 4 more damage to kill the next 3 but those that died didnt pass half of the damage. Squad wise sure this works but on an individual basis no. You have a 6 man squad and I pass you 10 individual damage 1 saves you need to pass off on a 5++. You pass 3. 7 die. Great for multiwound models like your 12 wound scenario but it doesnt reflect my 1 wound Plague Marines.

That 2 damage would kill your 1 wound Plague Marine, it now doesnt. That 1 damage had a pretty good chance to gibb your 1 wound Plague Marine, it now doesnt. The New DR in conjunction with the extra wound is better for the infantry, worse for the vehicles. There just isnt that many D3 weapons out there that youd want to target PMs with.

To kill six W1 Plague Marines with a 5++, you'd need to do an average of nine unsaved D1 attacks.

If you do exactly six, you'll have two left on average. Those two still have their 5+++, so it takes an average of three more unsaved D1 wounds to kill them.

So this only comes into effect when you roll poorly or are firing chip damage at them? Its not hard to actually wound Plague Marines, it just got silly when they had the 5++ from the relic and the 5+++ on top of that. If anything thats the opponents fault for chipping away instead of having supremacy units either in shooting or melee. If I charge 5 BA Vanguard Vets all with Lightning Claws or Blade Guard Vets into your unit, we both know your not gonna survive 50% of the damage, they will be wiped out. This only works if you have models left alive in the unit after each subsequent attack which in this day and age of 40k, isnt that often for a 1 wound model.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

Again, this was my statement. That's backed by math.

If you want to ignore the math, you can-but that seems like a silly thing to do.

Edit: Before, a Plague Marine had a 8.32% chance of living through an unsaved Lascannon wound.

Now, they have a 1/3 chance.

And whilst thats a buff its not something to hedge your bets on. If a replacemet jet engine I ordered for my F-16 came in and on it was a note saying that it wont instantly combust 1/3 of the time it fires into life, I am not gonna rely on it and ill look for a way to improve on it or find a better option that doesnt end in me burning up in the stratosphere. Im not gonna like having my Plague Marines stare down the barrel of the gun and do as much as possible to ensure it never fires on them like using Obscuring, transports, strategic reserve and Cloud of Flies if it is still around and unchanged in the new Codex.

 deffrekka wrote:
Plague Marines are still a durable Troops unit, but even they shouldnt be able to take a Lascannon beam to the torso and live, they are still mortal after all.

That was in response to this, you know.

Castozor wrote:It's not sometimes worse, it's always worse except specifically against D2 were it's better and D3 were it's a wash.

Well, I think that pretty well sums up the mindset behind these complaints.

-The new DR is always worse, except when it's better.
-DG are ruined because they're not 'the tougher Marines' anymore. Having T5 and army-wide damage reduction don't count for some reason.
-Plague Marines are ruined because they're now more vulnerable to D1 weapons, despite actually being less vulnerable to D1 weapons point-for-point if they end up anywhere under 24pts. Going to W2, which more than offsets the loss of DR against D1 weapons, apparently doesn't count because loyalists and CSM got it too, so when DG go up against Guard or Eldar that second wound won't exist and they'll be getting mowed down by lasguns and shurikens.

I don't get it. I really don't.

 deffrekka wrote:

Well the army has other things that arent just Plague Marines. Possessed, Blightlords, Deathshroud, these have 3 wounds each. Suddenly they are making damage 3 a 2. You need 2 damage 3 wounds to go through to kill a terminator when before he would still die with his 2 wounds 5++. Whats the most prolific damage type in the game? 1, D3 and 2. Where are all these damage 3 weapons coming from? Is your opponent nothing but Orks with Rokkit Launchers or just Space Marines with waves of Thunderhammers? Whatever big bad thing killed them before will still kill them now, but instead they get additional protection from the more common weapons that would kill them. Plasma/Heavy Bolters/Autocannons/Power Fists/etc.

What gets more effected is your vehicles. But again they were getting too durable, with the 4++ 5+++ from PA. Its becoming a trend for 9th ed for things to die quicker as weapons get more shots, more AP, more damage. The new DR is more of a sidegrade than a nerf or buff. Plague Marines are still a durable Troops unit, but even they shouldnt be able to take a Lascannon beam to the torso and live, they are still mortal after all.

I'll agree Terminators and (highly) arguably PM got of better with this, but even then only against specific weapons, they got worse against the majority of guns. And no our vehicles weren't getting too durable, they were fine. The rest of the game is way to lethal and almost no one else had our defenses is what the issue was. New DR is 100% a hard nerf for anything not a Terminator or against people who stack nothing but D2 weapons.
Which is my other issue with this rule, DG now feths over anyone who skews into D2, the kind of weapons you normally have to pay extra for. How does that make my opponent feel, knowing he sunk all these points into weapons that are now useless. Or likewise if my opponent knows he's fighting me, why ever even bother taking anything D2 if you can avoid it. Old DR might have issues but at least it didn't invalidate one of the most common damage types in the game.

 catbarf wrote:

Castozor wrote:It's not sometimes worse, it's always worse except specifically against D2 were it's better and D3 were it's a wash.

Well, I think that pretty well sums up the mindset behind these complaints.

-The new DR is always worse, except when it's better.
-DG are ruined because they're not 'the tougher Marines' anymore. Having T5 and army-wide damage reduction don't count for some reason.
-Plague Marines are ruined because they're now more vulnerable to D1 weapons, despite actually being less vulnerable to D1 weapons point-for-point if they end up anywhere under 24pts. Going to W2, which more than offsets the loss of DR against D1 weapons, apparently doesn't count because loyalists and CSM got it too, so when DG go up against Guard or Eldar that second wound won't exist and they'll be getting mowed down by lasguns and shurikens.

I don't get it. I really don't.

You don't get it because you are willfully ignorant. It is always worse except for one very specific number of damage, ergo in 80% of cases it is worse. How you could interpreter as anything other than a flat nerf to the ability is beyond me.
They are now barely tougher when their toughness is supposed to be the selling point of the army.
2 wounds is a given and utterly irrelevant when discussing the nerf to DR. A wound we are going to pay for too just like every other marine.

Reducing the damage type... low power weapons like plasma do less than before, but 3+ damage weapons actually do more than before.

Overall the switch is minor, but meltas are going to be amazing this edition, however, infantry spam will counter that.

Gotta wonder what deathguards new points costs will be.

 Castozor wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

Well the army has other things that arent just Plague Marines. Possessed, Blightlords, Deathshroud, these have 3 wounds each. Suddenly they are making damage 3 a 2. You need 2 damage 3 wounds to go through to kill a terminator when before he would still die with his 2 wounds 5++. Whats the most prolific damage type in the game? 1, D3 and 2. Where are all these damage 3 weapons coming from? Is your opponent nothing but Orks with Rokkit Launchers or just Space Marines with waves of Thunderhammers? Whatever big bad thing killed them before will still kill them now, but instead they get additional protection from the more common weapons that would kill them. Plasma/Heavy Bolters/Autocannons/Power Fists/etc.

What gets more effected is your vehicles. But again they were getting too durable, with the 4++ 5+++ from PA. Its becoming a trend for 9th ed for things to die quicker as weapons get more shots, more AP, more damage. The new DR is more of a sidegrade than a nerf or buff. Plague Marines are still a durable Troops unit, but even they shouldnt be able to take a Lascannon beam to the torso and live, they are still mortal after all.

I'll agree Terminators and (highly) arguably PM got of better with this, but even then only against specific weapons, they got worse against the majority of guns. And no our vehicles weren't getting too durable, they were fine. The rest of the game is way to lethal and almost no one else had our defenses is what the issue was. New DR is 100% a hard nerf for anything not a Terminator or against people who stack nothing but D2 weapons.
Which is my other issue with this rule, DG now feths over anyone who skews into D2, the kind of weapons you normally have to pay extra for. How does that make my opponent feel, knowing he sunk all these points into weapons that are now useless. Or likewise if my opponent knows he's fighting me, why ever even bother taking anything D2 if you can avoid it. Old DR might have issues but at least it didn't invalidate one of the most common damage types in the game.

 catbarf wrote:

Castozor wrote:It's not sometimes worse, it's always worse except specifically against D2 were it's better and D3 were it's a wash.

Well, I think that pretty well sums up the mindset behind these complaints.

-The new DR is always worse, except when it's better.
-DG are ruined because they're not 'the tougher Marines' anymore. Having T5 and army-wide damage reduction don't count for some reason.
-Plague Marines are ruined because they're now more vulnerable to D1 weapons, despite actually being less vulnerable to D1 weapons point-for-point if they end up anywhere under 24pts. Going to W2, which more than offsets the loss of DR against D1 weapons, apparently doesn't count because loyalists and CSM got it too, so when DG go up against Guard or Eldar that second wound won't exist and they'll be getting mowed down by lasguns and shurikens.

I don't get it. I really don't.

You don't get it because you are willfully ignorant. It is always worse except for one very specific number of damage, ergo in 80% of cases it is worse. How you could interpreter as anything other than a flat nerf to the ability is beyond me.
They are now barely tougher when their toughness is supposed to be the selling point of the army.
2 wounds is a given and utterly irrelevant when discussing the nerf to DR. A wound we are going to pay for too just like every other marine.

No, they're now more durable point for point against d1 weapons, they're better against d2 and to be frank who has been firing d3+ weapons against plague marines in such quantities to matter? Even if they did, 5+++ is only going to save 1 in 9 anyway.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
Plague Marines are still a durable Troops unit, but even they shouldnt be able to take a Lascannon beam to the torso and live, they are still mortal after all.

That was in response to this, you know.

Yeah and I responded. Whilst better odds than previously, the Lascannon will still kill a Plague Marine 2/3rds of the time as it should.

 Castozor wrote:
You don't get it because you are willfully ignorant. It is always worse except for one very specific number of damage, ergo in 80% of cases it is worse. How you could interpreter as anything other than a flat nerf to the ability is beyond me.

I've said it's a net nerf. It's the 'always worse, except when it's better or the same' that really sounds like looking for reasons to be upset.

It would be just as reasonable for me to say that the old Disgustingly Resilient was worthless because it always failed, except when you rolled a 5 or 6. That's the level of skew you're operating at here.

 Castozor wrote:
They are now barely tougher when their toughness is supposed to be the selling point of the army.

Primaris are the most common Marine archetype in 2020, and Plague Marines have gone from comparably tough to significantly tougher. That's a huge change.

T5 is a significant advantage against S4/S5 weapons, and the new DR covers you against the D2 profiles that kill Marines well. You're 50% harder to kill with any kind of S4 weapon. You're nearly three times harder to kill with Heavy Bolters. All your vehicles get Duty Eternal.

'Barely tougher' is absolute nonsense for the infantry, and we haven't even seen what else the army is getting as a whole.

 Castozor wrote:
2 wounds is a given and utterly irrelevant when discussing the nerf to DR. A wound we are going to pay for too just like every other marine.

Except we're not talking about just the changes to DR when you and others are complaining about Death Guard 'losing their durability'.

I think the rule is the opposite of what it should be. The idea of PMs is that they shrug off smaller arms fire and can only be reliably killed by big high-damage weapons. This makes them less vulnerable to what kills them best in the fluff, while the d1 weapons they are supposedly most resistant to are the most efficient way to kill them.

 catbarf wrote:

Castozor wrote:It's not sometimes worse, it's always worse except specifically against D2 were it's better and D3 were it's a wash.

Well, I think that pretty well sums up the mindset behind these complaints.

-The new DR is always worse, except when it's better.

That's not a just summary. The times it actually is better is extremely limited and not that unlikely to not come up against armies at all. Skimming through both our groups recent lists and tournament results, there is only a hand full of 2D weapons in them, and many of those units would murder a squad of plague marines despite 1 damage instead of 2 with their plasma or melee weapons.

-DG are ruined because they're not 'the tougher Marines' anymore. Having T5 and army-wide damage reduction don't count for some reason.

DG barely survived the firestorm and flurry of blades that other armies can throw down previously, so obviously losing up to 50% of your armies survivability is a huge deal. Plague marines got an extra wound to compensate, terminators remained the same (assuming the 4++ nerf isn't coming) and every daemon engine has lost massive amounts of durability.

-Plague Marines are ruined because they're now more vulnerable to D1 weapons, despite actually being less vulnerable to D1 weapons point-for-point if they end up anywhere under 24pts. Going to W2, which more than offsets the loss of DR against D1 weapons, apparently doesn't count because loyalists and CSM got it too, so when DG go up against Guard or Eldar that second wound won't exist and they'll be getting mowed down by lasguns and shurikens.

So, this one actually interesting, thanks for bringing it up:
Let's take everyone's favorite unit, the intercessors, and assume plague marines are 24 points.
10 of them in rapid fire range kill 1.11 plague marine, or 26.666 points, they used to kill 1.481 one-wound plague marines for 26.658. So for plague marines, this seems fair, but they weren't actually a great unit before unless you gave them flails (nerfed) or used the grenade combo (likely to be gone). It's also worth noting that the new Inexorable Advance also is a net nerf, as it reduced the effective range of plasma, melta and blight launchers.

I think this is a good timeline of what happened in here today

The new rules for DR come out, lots of people look at it compared to old DR and state that it's not as good. That's it.

Then loads of trolls come in comparing them to intercessors, saying they should cost 26+pts and that it's a buff because they got an extra wound.

DG players re-iterate they are just talking direct comparison with DR changes.

Again the extra wound gets called up for some reason despite it not being what was being discussed.

So DG players bite and start talking as a whole about the changes.

Everyone else starts calling DG players as whining because they are complaining despite getting an extra wound.

If you look back when this was a proper discussion thread and DR was being imagined as staying as it was 23pts was being mooted as probable cost with the extra wound and likely buffs due to doctrines equivalent. No one was disputing that. It was generally seen as likely.

Doohicky wrote:
I think this is a good timeline of what happened in here today

The new rules for DR come out, lots of people look at it compared to old DR and state that it's not as good. That's it.

Then loads of trolls come in comparing them to intercessors, saying they should cost 26+pts and that it's a buff because they got an extra wound.

DG players re-iterate they are just talking direct comparison with DR changes.

Again the extra wound gets called up for some reason despite it not being what was being discussed.

So DG players bite and start talking as a whole about the changes.

Everyone else starts calling DG players as whining because they are complaining despite getting an extra wound.

If you look back when this was a proper discussion thread and DR was being imagined as staying as it was 23pts was being mooted as probable cost with the extra wound and likely buffs due to doctrines equivalent. No one was disputing that. It was generally seen as likely.

Literally the first page of posts after the article contains some calling it an overall nerf and saying there should be point drops.

Dudeface wrote:


Literally the first page of posts after the article contains some calling it an overall nerf and saying there should be point drops.

One person who was roundly ignored stupidly said they should cost same as tacs and there should be points drops across the codex. I find that position as silly as the people saying we can't compare the old and new DRs in a vacuum (Which is a LOT more people)

You will always get exceptions


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to re-iterate my stance as a whole.

I thought with old DR 22-23 points would have been fair.

With the new DR I think 21-22 is fair.

Many of the tanks and Morty have got less protected. But the tanks have got other buffs so I would be happy if they stay similar points. MBH, I think I could see still going up.


Poxwalkers need new rules or big drop in points as otherwise they are uselss

 catbarf wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
They are now barely tougher when their toughness is supposed to be the selling point of the army.

Primaris are the most common Marine archetype in 2020, and Plague Marines have gone from comparably tough to significantly tougher. That's a huge change.

T5 is a significant advantage against S4/S5 weapons, and the new DR covers you against the D2 profiles that kill Marines well. You're 50% harder to kill with any kind of S4 weapon. You're nearly three times harder to kill with Heavy Bolters. All your vehicles get Duty Eternal.

'Barely tougher' is absolute nonsense for the infantry, and we haven't even seen what else the army is getting as a whole.
Luckily those same SM are also far killier than we are then, although granted if any unit comes of better with this it's Terminators for sure and maybe PM. Yes our vehicles got duty eternal, the very same vehicles people point D3+ weapons at, guess which rule was better in this case? Hint: it's not the new DR

 Castozor wrote:
2 wounds is a given and utterly irrelevant when discussing the nerf to DR. A wound we are going to pay for too just like every other marine.

Except we're not talking about just the changes to DR when you and others are complaining about Death Guard 'losing their durability'.

But we should, the extra wound does not count for durability, this is just the new marine baseline we all knew we would get. And again, just like loyalist proper marines, we get to pay for this extra wound. It's not a free buff tacked on.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the rule is the opposite of what it should be. The idea of PMs is that they shrug off smaller arms fire and can only be reliably killed by big high-damage weapons. This makes them less vulnerable to what kills them best in the fluff, while the d1 weapons they are supposedly most resistant to are the most efficient way to kill them.

That's 100% my qualm with the rule. It doesn't make any sense that the Death Guard's trademark resilience ability only kicks in against D2+ weapons. I get that the old 5+++ had its issues but at least it impacted (or could impact) everything in the game. Felt far more appropriate thematically.

I posted a detailed analysis on my blog with some math, but the short of it is that this is a huge nerf overall. That said, in practice, at least Plague Marines are probably better off overall especially combined with all the other changes of the codex. It probably hurts Terminators a little bit and then vehicles and Morty are huge losers.

But we have yet to see all the rules and points so it could be that DG come out of the codex very strong even if DR itself was generally gutted as a core rule.

Compared to the old, 1 wound, 18 point PM here is what I see. The old PM was a little too over pointed.

2 wounds with new DR is better than 1 wound with old DR. This change alone made PM's worth 18 points. Now throw in better AP in their knives and the ability to move and shoot, and they are worth more than 18 points. 26 is way too much, but 19 is way too low. 21-23 seems good to me depending on what other changes are made.

I can't wait for Plague Marines to be 28 points each. It's divisible by 7, which is Nurgle's sacred number.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the rule is the opposite of what it should be. The idea of PMs is that they shrug off smaller arms fire and can only be reliably killed by big high-damage weapons. This makes them less vulnerable to what kills them best in the fluff, while the d1 weapons they are supposedly most resistant to are the most efficient way to kill them.

So really it's about 100% spot-on for a GW rules redesign. Not a nerf, but just something that runs counter to what they're trying to show.

It's also another one of those "doesn't scale well" rules, where it's meant to make them tougher, but somehow has no effect on the lowest damage weapons, which makes no sense. It'd be like saying that Terminators are dying too easily, so we'll give them a 2+ Invulnerable save, but only against weapons S9 and above.

As I came in and read all through this I kind of went through the levels of loss on an emotional train ride.

Over all, after all those pages ? I feel like this is too early to call. Hear me out here fellows.

Losing what we had, it feels bad as when that 5 came up, it felt good, but lets be honest unless we were super lucky, it tended to kinda be meh, at least for me. So I'd rather have the static benefit, I can't mess that up so it'll help in that regard, might have rather had the -1 to wound rolls but this is alright I suppose.

It really sucks for pox walkers unless they keep their FNP, now if they get the 1 dam and FNP, that could be spicy and we as of now don't know they won't, if they don't, they are DOA unless they are dirt cheap.a

Plagues will be a mixed bag, the 3 wound options sound pretty good with this and the over all higher toughness can help still, it'll all need to get hashed out in use though.

Vehicles, I don't know it'll need to get hashed out and seen as well but does seem like meltas and their ilk are going to be annoying still.

In the end depends on point costs, and things we don't know, like how will all the units still work together, etc.

Over all, I like a static benefit I can't mess up, but it does feel bad to me personally at the moment, I'll reserve full judgement till it gets some play time and we have the whole picture before I have doom and gloom, maybe tomorrow it'll be great news ? Only time will tell, what if that contagions things gives us back FNP ? Not to get too hopeful but I could see it maybe rolled into there and we don't start the game with it but later as the plague grows they gain it, now that could be a game changer.

Try and have some faith fellow snotkins, we may be ok yet. At least we kept MBH in squads, that is good.

Word on the street is that Plague Surgeon is a 6" 6+ FNP bubble, on top of whatever else he does.

Oh man 6+++ ? All my dreams have come true and wait a minute, why not 7 inches !!! This is heresy !!!

Now if he gives back FNP with a 5+ at 7 inches, maybe then we'll talk, that is less heresy.

Now if you’re all good little nurglings the rules fairy will give you half of what you had via an apothecary.

Oh sorry, you wanted similar rules to the ATV reviving loyalists?

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's also another one of those "doesn't scale well" rules, where it's meant to make them tougher, but somehow has no effect on the lowest damage weapons, which makes no sense. It'd be like saying that Terminators are dying too easily, so we'll give them a 2+ Invulnerable save, but only against weapons S9 and above.

I mean that is why Terminators got a 5++.

Realistically no one is killing Plague Marines with masses of S3 AP- weapons. Maybe if the future meta is massed Guardsmen that could be an issue - but it isn't, and it doesn't seem likely to be.

2 wound Plague Marines at reasonable points are going to be amazingly resilient against S4/S5 1 damage guns. They are going to be amazing against 2 damage and D3 damage weapons many factions use for killing regular Marines. Ditto for Terminators.

There are potentially losses to the vehicles. If someone rolls high on a D6 damage weapon, you can't hope to spike high on the FNP roll. But equally you can't spike low - and if they roll low, saving a wound will quickly add up as anyone playing Wave Serpents knows.

Obviously if Plague Marines are now 28 points then they are toast anyway - but assuming something sensible in the lowish 20s, I think you'll find its a buff over the 5++. If stacking a 6+++ can be done cost effectively, it may be a significant buff.

EldarExarch wrote:
Word on the street is that Plague Surgeon is a 6" 6+ FNP bubble, on top of whatever else he does.

So basically a Painboy or whatever that Ork unit that gives FnP.

At this point the Plague Surgeon needs a complete rewrite as he just doesn't really fit into this new paradigm.

I can't wait for Plague Marines to be 28 points each. It's divisible by 7, which is Nurgle's sacred number.

28 if they want to kill off Death Guard as an army. Otherwise they'll go for 21 points since that is also divisible by 7. Even better is that it is the multiplication of 7 and 3 which are both prime numbers

 cuda1179 wrote:
Compared to the old, 1 wound, 18 point PM here is what I see. The old PM was a little too over pointed.

2 wounds with new DR is better than 1 wound with old DR. This change alone made PM's worth 18 points. Now throw in better AP in their knives and the ability to move and shoot, and they are worth more than 18 points. 26 is way too much, but 19 is way too low. 21-23 seems good to me depending on what other changes are made.

I really hope it's not more than 23 points considering the sidegrade on FNP and that PMs were bad at 18 under their old rules and profile. 22 points would be fantastic.

I vote for 21 points, 7 x 3 ftw. The faction won't be over the top good either way, take a hit for the sake of fluff GW, won't someone please think of the nurglings ?!?!?

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I vote for 21 points, 7 x 3 ftw. The faction won't be over the top good either way, take a hit for the sake of fluff GW, won't someone please think of the nurglings ?!?!?

If they were 21 ppm I would trip all over myself to put PMs on the table. But I doubt they will be only 1 point more than an Intercessor, even if an Intercessor gets a much better gun and has doctrines.