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Turnip Jedi wrote: does/did Marvel comics have a Crisis like event to collapse it to a reasonable number of timelines ?
Not really I don’t think. Marvel just doesn’t mess with multiversal travel all that much like DC does. Outside of the Spiders doing their Spider-verse stuff I can’t think of an example offhand even, which isn’t to say there aren’t any, they’re just not to common.
It's amazing how much this ending contrasts with FatWS, and Wandavision. We still have that personal growth of our main character... but outside of that, it has absolutely no effect on the universe. Wandavision revives Vision, and unleashes a far more powered up Wanda upon the world. FatWS makes a new Captain, and establishes US Agent as the almost-hero joining the new shadowy organization, and Sharon as a Powerbroker ready to issue Shield tech to anyone who can afford it. For Loki- we change Kangs in charge? And now one loan, utterly untrustworthy individual is possibly on the loose in the timestream with the truth. There's remarkably little consequence for the whole series for the universe as a whole. The only thing worse would have been Loki waking up and it all being a dream.
Strangely enough I wasn't mad at it- it's an intensely frustrating ending, which is right on track for their series focus, which is what it means to be a Loki. To lose, no matter how much you try to change, no matter how good or pure your motives. You just lose, and never accomplish your goals. It'll be really interesting to see how Loki handles that in the next series, and in any MCU films he appears in.
Oh, and how about Miss Minutes? Man, she can act!
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
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Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
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AduroT wrote: Outside of the Spiders doing their Spider-verse stuff I can’t think of an example offhand even, which isn’t to say there aren’t any, they’re just not to common.
The thing is DC uses all their "Crisis" events to wipe the slate clean and reboot. Marvel doesn't reboot. They update. They fill in gaps. Sure, there are retcons in there in the process. But all the things that happened before still happened.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
I think the nearest marvel equivalent to 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' is their relatively recent (and unhelpfully titled) 'Secret Wars' series.
Which I never read, because it seemed, somehow, like even a bigger more complex mess than CoIE, but it's ultimate goal was pretty similar to CoIE, kill off annoying strands of the storyline and bring things back together.
I think the only impactful outcome of it of note was that Miles Morales, and possibly Gwen Stacy too (though I'm not sure on that), are now situated on the main marvel setting.
Turnip Jedi wrote: does/did Marvel comics have a Crisis like event to collapse it to a reasonable number of timelines ?
Not really I don’t think. Marvel just doesn’t mess with multiversal travel all that much like DC does. Outside of the Spiders doing their Spider-verse stuff I can’t think of an example offhand even, which isn’t to say there aren’t any, they’re just not to common.
The latest Secret Wars? (Ah, scooped that one, but the premise wasn't to kill off anything, but rather the same as the Spider-verse: to allow their creatives to have fun designing lots of What Ifs for a while) The have a boatload of alternate realities there. There's also the Ultimate universe, of course. House of M. Exiles' complete premise is universe walking. Heroes Reborn. That's only full, complete multiversal stories that I can remember right now... there's loads and loads of multiverse plots in many regular series, too.
The recent Heroes Reborn wasn’t technically a multiverse thing, it was the current main reality being temporarily rewritten.
A “Crisis” type event I just remembered would be the Battle World I think it was called? Doctor Doom managed to (again temporarily) collapse the multiverse down into a single reality where he was god and multiple versions of different characters simultaneously existed on it.
The last Infinity War also dabbled in some multiversal stuff, but with less crossing over and more just peaking into a couple alternates.
So yeah, Marvel definitely has its multiverse, it’s just not an established thing like DC tends to do and more just whatever they happen to want at the moment.
AduroT wrote: The recent Heroes Reborn wasn’t technically a multiverse thing, it was the current main reality being temporarily rewritten.
"Umm actually,"... yeah I am sorry about this. Heroes Reborn was Franklin Richards getting rid of Onslaught by dumping him and some heroes caught in the blast into pocket realities that he had created with his own powers. The normal Marvel Universe kept on keeping on while the heroes in question just disappeared. Ironman, Thor, and Cap being the big ones that got "Reborn".
A “Crisis” type event I just remembered would be the Battle World I think it was called? Doctor Doom managed to (again temporarily) collapse the multiverse down into a single reality where he was god and multiple versions of different characters simultaneously existed on it.
That was the aforementioned Secret Wars with God Emperor Doom. But the end result of it was the Multiverse was restored and all the normal character still had their normal histories in tact.
The last Infinity War also dabbled in some multiversal stuff, but with less crossing over and more just peaking into a couple alternates.
So yeah, Marvel definitely has its multiverse, it’s just not an established thing like DC tends to do and more just whatever they happen to want at the moment.
It IS well established. It's just infinite. Every universe has a number designation. The MCU for instance is 199999. The main comics one is 616.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Building towards Secret Wars has felt like the road being paved since Endgame. I just wouldn't expect it anytime soon. 8 years or so? In good news, it would give them a chance to introduce Doom in a way that makes the character work via his Rabum Alal persona. I think he'll be our next Thanos, with Kang being more of a means to an end. It's a pretty perfect event to mimic Infinity War/Endgame's style too, as much of the event itself was the build up to the "snap" moment when the multiverse collides on itself followed by the actual story of trying to restore the planet by overthrowing God Emperor Doom.
In any case, there will be movies where the multiverse drives the story (No Way Home, Multiverse of Madness, Quantumania) and likely just as many that don't (Shang Chi, Eternals, Thor 4, Wakanda Forever, etc) and you won't need to know any of it to follow any of the rest of it. Characters matter, the plots... largely doing a good job of making you feel like they matter retroactively.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
It's amazing how much this ending contrasts with FatWS, and Wandavision. We still have that personal growth of our main character... but outside of that, it has absolutely no effect on the universe. Wandavision revives Vision, and unleashes a far more powered up Wanda upon the world. FatWS makes a new Captain, and establishes US Agent as the almost-hero joining the new shadowy organization, and Sharon as a Powerbroker ready to issue Shield tech to anyone who can afford it. For Loki- we change Kangs in charge? And now one loan, utterly untrustworthy individual is possibly on the loose in the timestream with the truth. There's remarkably little consequence for the whole series for the universe as a whole. The only thing worse would have been Loki waking up and it all being a dream.
Strangely enough I wasn't mad at it- it's an intensely frustrating ending, which is right on track for their series focus, which is what it means to be a Loki. To lose, no matter how much you try to change, no matter how good or pure your motives. You just lose, and never accomplish your goals. It'll be really interesting to see how Loki handles that in the next series, and in any MCU films he appears in.
Oh, and how about Miss Minutes? Man, she can act!
It’s also the first to have a follow up, and to have clear ties to what is to come. I suspect it’s reputation will depend upon what follows, and how many “whoa!” type moments tie back to Loki S1 and S2.
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AduroT wrote: The recent Heroes Reborn wasn’t technically a multiverse thing, it was the current main reality being temporarily rewritten.
"Umm actually,"... yeah I am sorry about this. Heroes Reborn was Franklin Richards getting rid of Onslaught by dumping him and some heroes caught in the blast into pocket realities that he had created with his own powers. The normal Marvel Universe kept on keeping on while the heroes in question just disappeared. Ironman, Thor, and Cap being the big ones that got "Reborn".
A “Crisis” type event I just remembered would be the Battle World I think it was called? Doctor Doom managed to (again temporarily) collapse the multiverse down into a single reality where he was god and multiple versions of different characters simultaneously existed on it.
That was the aforementioned Secret Wars with God Emperor Doom. But the end result of it was the Multiverse was restored and all the normal character still had their normal histories in tact.
The last Infinity War also dabbled in some multiversal stuff, but with less crossing over and more just peaking into a couple alternates.
So yeah, Marvel definitely has its multiverse, it’s just not an established thing like DC tends to do and more just whatever they happen to want at the moment.
What about the 'New Universe?' (Whatever happened to that?)
It IS well established. It's just infinite. Every universe has a number designation. The MCU for instance is 199999. The main comics one is 616.
The NEW universe is just 616. They rediscovered the ultimate universe and ghost spider (gwen stacy) is home in her own universe.
But more important then that, even if it didnt, the characters are the same characters. THEY did not get rebooted even if the universe they inhabit has gone through some changes.
DC doesnt do that. DC wipes the whole slate clean. Characters history and all.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Gwen’s been spending more of her time in the main universe lately, being the only Spider currently capable of universe travel, so she can attend school there where people don’t recognize her or know who she is.
I really enjoyed it, and very happy for the season 2 confirmation... just a painful wait for the next one as unless Marvel announces something soon Season 2 must be a ways out.
"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.
Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
As long as the threads aren't left dangling for that long, and we get some sort of continuation or adjacent story in Spider-Man 3/Dr. Strange 2/Ant-Man 3 (I mean Kang is in that film, so there has to be something!).
So Loki is responsible for unleashing Kang and Renslayer is AFK. I'm going to guess that Renslayer is unaffected by the reality shift considering how she vamoosed her office.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
So Loki is responsible for unleashing Kang and Renslayer is AFK. I'm going to guess that Renslayer is unaffected by the reality shift considering how she vamoosed her office.
I'm not sure losing an... active debate... makes someone responsible for the events that follow. I'm not sure I'd even say the winner was, at least in this case. With infinite infinities, this feels inevitable, especially since He Who Didn't Feel Like Being Named Today wanted out of the game and was looking for anyone to cross the threshold, no matter how it turned out in the end.
Being in (or out) of her office shouldn't mean anything. We already know there are multiples of her running around.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 17:36:30
So Loki is responsible for unleashing Kang and Renslayer is AFK. I'm going to guess that Renslayer is unaffected by the reality shift considering how she vamoosed her office.
I'm not sure losing an... active debate... makes someone responsible for the events that follow. I'm not sure I'd even say the winner was, at least in this case. With infinite infinities, this feels inevitable, especially since He Who Didn't Feel Like Being Named Today wanted out of the game and was looking for anyone to cross the threshold, no matter how it turned out in the end.
Spoiler:
Who said... anything about... 'winning' or... responsibility for... debates? Immortus literally states the consequences for the two possibilities and Loki (Sylvie Loki not Hiddleston Loki) completes the option that leads to Kang(s) a poppin throughout the timeline. It isn't vague or esoteric.
Voss wrote: Being in (or out) of her office shouldn't mean anything. We already know there are multiples of her running around.
Sure, because Marvel is known for the rigid adherence to scientific realism.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I can't believe Thanos was Loki's father all along!
Spoiler:
Well... that was not what I was expecting.
In a weird way, Sylvie is Loki, but also not Loki. And thus Immortus is not Kang, but also is Kang.
And we have Kang! He's here, in the MCU, and he's terrifying. Thanos wouldn't've stood a chance against this guy.
Overall I am beyond impressed that they decided to leave it at a cliffhanger, and then use the mid-credits scene to confirm something I didn't think we'd ever see - Season 2! I really thought, given the nature of the MCU and how it keeps moving forward, that these shows would be a one-and-done situation. But if there's more Loki, then sign me the hell up as this is the best thing Marvel has done TV-wise.
Only condition is that they have to bring Natalie Holt back. Her music was integral to this show, and that's not something you can say about music in the MCU.
Anyway, yeah, this was a fascinating finale. They stuck this landing, didn't give us yet another Loki, or make everyone Loki, or whatever. They went full man behind the curtain, gave us Kang by way of Immortus, and had Sylvie fail because of her inability to trust. They also left Loki in a reality where the enemy he just found out about rules, and his friends don't remember him.
So do we get Season 2 before Ant-Man 3? And I swear, if Kang is defeated by some plucky one-liners and CGI fight scene in Ant-Man, it will be a waste.
Spoiler:
the speculation is that Kang is being set up as the next Thanos. so I doubt we'll see him defeated for good in Antman 3. In fact My guess is we see Antman 3 be what brings him to the attention of "The Avengers" and we eventually see Loki return to the "main timeline" by working with the avengers to stop him for good. this'll proably be the next avengers movie
Spoiler:
That’s the thing about multi-verse Kang. Even if you defeat him, there are virtually an infinite supply of alternate Kangs.
Valete,
JohnS
Valete,
JohnS
"You don't believe data - you test data. If I could put my finger on the moment we genuinely <expletive deleted> ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around"
So Loki is responsible for unleashing Kang and Renslayer is AFK. I'm going to guess that Renslayer is unaffected by the reality shift considering how she vamoosed her office.
I'm not sure losing an... active debate... makes someone responsible for the events that follow. I'm not sure I'd even say the winner was, at least in this case. With infinite infinities, this feels inevitable, especially since He Who Didn't Feel Like Being Named Today wanted out of the game and was looking for anyone to cross the threshold, no matter how it turned out in the end.
Spoiler:
Who said... anything about... 'winning' or... responsibility for... debates? Immortus literally states the consequences for the two possibilities and Loki (Sylvie Loki not Hiddleston Loki) completes the option that leads to Kang(s) a poppin throughout the timeline. It isn't vague or esoteric.
You did. You specifically said "Loki is responsible" If you meant Sylvie, you should've just said that. Variants aside, they're different people with definitely distinct experiences, traumas and issues. Their lives barely overlap at all. [As opposed to this Loki and murdered-by-Thanos Loki, who have like a 95% overlap)
Also... we're given very little reason to trust Bob's version of 'the consequences.' He also claimed they only got there by his design, but he...didn't expect both of them, and also knew everything up til the point he didn't (despite... not expecting them both?). That's not a reliable narrator. That's a BS artist rejecting any sense of responsibility, while claiming he's the headmaster of the entire circus. And the First of all the things, which is equally dubious.
Voss wrote: Being in (or out) of her office shouldn't mean anything. We already know there are multiples of her running around.
Sure, because Marvel is known for the rigid adherence to scientific realism.
Its... not a matter of scientific realism? These people already have variants. Most (if not all) _are_ variants.
'Immunity' isn't really part of the narrative presented, and even if it was, that ship sailed some manner of infinite time ago.
She should have no idea wtf is going on. But a simple season 1->season 2 timeskip will allow some fuzziness there.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/16 02:36:41
hotsauceman1 wrote: Also, what made that specific moment so special that time started branching? Was it Kangs birth?
It was the fact that not all Kangs are the same.
Basically there are Kangs out there - let's call them the conquering type - that didn't want to share and exchange knowledge with other versions of themselves across the multi-verse. So they waged war on one another, creating the multi-universal war the TVA propaganda talks about. The Kang we meet, the last one at the end of time, eventually used the Smoke Monster from Lost to destroy all the other Kangs, reducing reality to a single timeline. He then created the TVA to ensure that no further timelines could ever exist, as any one of them could bring about a bloodthirsty warlike Kang.
Then Sylvie killed him, and time began branching, and multi-universal Kangs came back into being.
Mea culpa I forgot I said 'responsible' and thought I just said that Loki unleashed Kang. As for "it wasn't Loki it was Sylvie" Sylvie is Loki and and the Loki is Sylvie. There was an alligator that was also Loki.
Edited as I may be in a bit of a mood and being a bit more of a gruff then I mean to be. grumble grumble grumble
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/16 06:22:28
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
I don’t think killing Kang actually caused the timeline fracture. It wasn’t Kang out there personally culling timelines after all. At that point the TVA was already in chaos and had stopped doing their thing thanks to Mobius and the other agent lady, and that would have allowed the naturally occurring timelines splits to mature.
One thing I've been thinking about is, He Who Remains (HWR) specifically said he isolated his timestream.
So, I think he really did defeat ALL of the multiverse Kangs. I mean, he probably defeated SOME of them, in the process of it all.
But I think it's along the lines of...
There's this multimultiverse. HWR grabs his native native timeline, isolates it (somehow). But, it immediately starts branching again. And that's what the TVA starts pruning.
To stick with the gardening metaphor, he built a greenhouse around his garden, but he still needs gardeners to keep it in control. And some weedkiller (Alioth) too.
So, with HWR dead, Loki and Sylvie declining to buy the house and manage the gardeners, things are all going a bit nuts.
(For the moment, I'm going to assume that Sylvie's 'crime' was being born, but Disney didn't want to go down that road for all the debates it would start, so left it unsaid)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/16 12:18:31
AduroT wrote: I don’t think killing Kang actually caused the timeline fracture. It wasn’t Kang out there personally culling timelines after all. At that point the TVA was already in chaos and had stopped doing their thing thanks to Mobius and the other agent lady, and that would have allowed the naturally occurring timelines splits to mature.
Specifically their choice was to kill Kang or go back and run the TVA. The important thing here is they were supposed to go back, explain to the agents that they were variants and, having themselves rebelled to the point of getting to the bottom of things, learned how important the TVA's work was and use that to convince them to go back to work. The leaders of the rebellion needed to go back and put things back in order. Failing that, things grow exponentially out of control. What's curious is the TVA Loki returns to. Clearly it seems to be a variant TVA run by a more authoritarian version of Kang, but I'm curious if more importantly its at an earlier point in the TVA's history.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
- that didn't want to share and exchange knowledge with other versions of themselves across the multi-verse. So they waged war on one another, creating the multi-universal war the TVA propaganda talks about. The Kang we meet, the last one at the end of time, eventually used the Smoke Monster from Lost to destroy all the other Kangs, reducing reality to a single timeline. He then created the TVA to ensure that no further timelines could ever exist, as any one of them could bring about a bloodthirsty warlike Kang.