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But again, none of that needs Agatha when we have Vision Quest, which arguable fits even better because he's the "father" of two of the characters?

YA are undoubtedly part of the big plan, but I think anything they give to Agatha will either be taken from somewhere else, weakening the donor, or superfluous to the central MCU arcs.

But ultimately unless they come out and actually explain it (or it's painfully obvious) we'll never know what was planned in advance or what was as hoc cash in.

Well, Vision Quest is presumably more about him trying to figure out who he is and ultimately building his daughter Viv.

I can see how you would need to pick one or the other in Children's Crusade or Vision builds a family. Particularly because Vision is NOT Wanda's kids father. The fake magical construct version of himself that wanda made in the hex is. Actual vision wasn't there for any of that.

 Lance845 wrote:
Well, Vision Quest is presumably more about him trying to figure out who he is and ultimately building his daughter Viv.

I can see how you would need to pick one or the other in Children's Crusade or Vision builds a family. Particularly because Vision is NOT Wanda's kids father. The fake magical construct version of himself that wanda made in the hex is. Actual vision wasn't there for any of that.

By the same logic, neither were the kids. Main MCU Wanda never had kids, which is partly why MoM Wanda's obsession with them was completely over the top. And current Vision went full Ship of Theseus metaphor, painfully explained, so at least there is a minimal connection there (unlike her completely fake kids).

Odds are pretty good that if/when they introduce the hero versions of those kids, they'll be the ones from the AU Wanda she puppeted in MoM. At least, I hope so, in so far as it might put some limits on the absurdity of parallel, alternate and fake characters in the main universe. Those specific kids will at least have a motivation for caring about stuff that happens in other realities.

Voss wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Well, Vision Quest is presumably more about him trying to figure out who he is and ultimately building his daughter Viv.

I can see how you would need to pick one or the other in Children's Crusade or Vision builds a family. Particularly because Vision is NOT Wanda's kids father. The fake magical construct version of himself that wanda made in the hex is. Actual vision wasn't there for any of that.

By the same logic, neither were the kids. Main MCU Wanda never had kids, which is partly why MoM Wanda's obsession with them was completely over the top. And current Vision went full Ship of Theseus metaphor, painfully explained, so at least there is a minimal connection there (unlike her completely fake kids).

Odds are pretty good that if/when they introduce the hero versions of those kids, they'll be the ones from the AU Wanda she puppeted in MoM. At least, I hope so, in so far as it might put some limits on the absurdity of parallel, alternate and fake characters in the main universe. Those specific kids will at least have a motivation for caring about stuff that happens in other realities.

But unlike the Vision who wasn't actually there, Wanda DID give birth to them. And, like the comics, their ACTUAL existence as magical constructs could result in their reincarnation in the MCU prime universe. Wanda can reshape reality. She did it not understanding it and without any discipline. We just don't know whats going to happen yet with the nature of her kids.

Wanda created her kids, and after she lost them, she wanted them back, and the inherent corruption from the Darkhold didn't help the situation. Nothing about her actions struck me as being over the top.

Agatha exists as a show because the song was suddenly popular and the people actually running Marvel at the time (ie. not Feige) were reactionaries wanting to pump out as much stuff as possible. Essentially, for the briefest moment of time Marvel Studios started to get run like WB was with the DCEU - never sticking to a plan, lurching from project to project as audience reactions and the fickle interest of the crowd waxed and waned - and it's causing no ends of problems.

The effects of Iger/Feige 'righting the ship' (so to speak) won't be seen for a while unfortunately, simply due to the production length for any given project. In the meantime, Feige has to salvage what he can from the troubled Agatha, Echo and even Blade productions to try and make it all work.

So, I had a think about it after this weekend, and decided that Phase 4 stuff has been really weak, trending towards DCEU levels of badness.

Here are my thoughts on post End-game movie and TV:

Movies:
1. Spider-man- No Way Home
2. Shang-Chi
3. Wakanda Forever
4. Eternals
5. Multiverse of Madness
6. Quantumania
7. Love and Thunder

*= I am not including Black Widow on this list as they are technically pre-Endgame.

The first three clearly had some connective or character driven reason or genre to explore. The last three are just.... a mess and were designed more to move the MCU forward than to tell actual interesting stories about those characters, explore new themes, or to visit a different genre.*

A lot of people bagged on Eternals, but it was still way better than whatever the last three movies were supposed to be.

Television:
1. Wandavision
2. Falcon and Wintersoldier
3. Werewolf by Night
4. Loki
5. Moon Knight
6. Ms. Marvel
7. Hawkeye
8. GotG: Christmas Special

Anything not on the list I have not watched yet, and may of may not be in a hurry too. 4-7 all started strong, but could not carry it through. Falcon and WS brought up the best themes post-snap, but was a bit shaky. To be honest, I think the TV shows have mostly detracted from the MCU mystique rather than grew it.






*= Okay, MoM was going to horror and Love and Thunder was maybe trying for buddy cop or Odd Couple kinda humor. Either way, they were so loaded with other MCU baggage they couldn't just be their own thing.

Hmm quite different view on TV

Loki - By far the most entertaining, but could have been anything not just Marvel, as it was a vehicle for the main actors to be themselves in a low effort but high charisma way.

Moon Knight - A complete stand alone. Could have been in any universe or none and I thought quite fun. Especially the ability to skip past the frankly tedious now fisticuffs (I have the cosmic power... to chin you!)

Werewolf by Night - I get it, well executed and somewhat tongue in cheek. More a film school project than prime time though.

Wandavision - good starting schtick then lost it in a bunch of consequenceless whatever.

Falcon and Wintersoldier - Many flaws with what they were trying to show, tried to make supporting the status quo radical. Also apparently Falcon is broke, because reasons? (Clearly they are unaware as serving military/a contractor he would be quite well off, plus nicking whatever wasn't nailed down in Stark towers in true NCO fashion.)

Hawkeye - Well, I guess its Hawkeye? As a vehicle to replace him with a younger model I guess it was ok?

Ms. Marvel - great start, downhill rapidly. Quite kid focused?

GotG: Christmas Special - Well it had a good song? It was completely aping its genre though, shame that genre is a bit naff.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Falcon and Wintersoldier - Many flaws with what they were trying to show, tried to make supporting the status quo radical. Also apparently Falcon is broke, because reasons? (Clearly they are unaware as serving military/a contractor he would be quite well off, plus nicking whatever wasn't nailed down in Stark towers in true NCO fashion.)

Falcon not being able to get a loan was so frustrating. He could have called Pepper or Happy. He could have started a GoFundMe-type thing. Wakanda made him a hundred-million-dollar suit. They couldn't have floated him a couple hundred grand?

 bbb wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Falcon and Wintersoldier - Many flaws with what they were trying to show, tried to make supporting the status quo radical. Also apparently Falcon is broke, because reasons? (Clearly they are unaware as serving military/a contractor he would be quite well off, plus nicking whatever wasn't nailed down in Stark towers in true NCO fashion.)

Falcon not being able to get a loan was so frustrating. He could have called Pepper or Happy. He could have started a GoFundMe-type thing. Wakanda made him a hundred-million-dollar suit. They couldn't have floated him a couple hundred grand?

Sure, he could have, but that is NOT how Falcon wanted to operate. It is part of his character from the start.

 bbb wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Falcon and Wintersoldier - Many flaws with what they were trying to show, tried to make supporting the status quo radical. Also apparently Falcon is broke, because reasons? (Clearly they are unaware as serving military/a contractor he would be quite well off, plus nicking whatever wasn't nailed down in Stark towers in true NCO fashion.)

Falcon not being able to get a loan was so frustrating. He could have called Pepper or Happy. He could have started a GoFundMe-type thing. Wakanda made him a hundred-million-dollar suit. They couldn't have floated him a couple hundred grand?

I think this is the problem when you have an expanded universe and most of the heroes are on speaking terms or better with one another. Some issues that could have been easily solved or addressed because of friends/connections with other heroes or characters get hand-waved away for the sake of plot contrivances.

 Grimskul wrote:

I think this is the problem when you have an expanded universe and most of the heroes are on speaking terms or better with one another. Some issues that could have been easily solved or addressed because of friends/connections with other heroes or characters get hand-waved away for the sake of plot contrivances.

DC struggles so hard to reconcile Batman as both an urban myth vigilante and simultaneously one of the foremost leaders of single most recognizable and powerful super hero organization on the planet.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

I think this is the problem when you have an expanded universe and most of the heroes are on speaking terms or better with one another. Some issues that could have been easily solved or addressed because of friends/connections with other heroes or characters get hand-waved away for the sake of plot contrivances.

DC struggles so hard to reconcile Batman as both an urban myth vigilante and simultaneously one of the foremost leaders of single most recognizable and powerful super hero organization on the planet.

Pretty much, definitely one of the problems of Batman being a prominent member of the Justice League. I remember the DCAU sort of addressed this kind of conflict with Batman mostly being a "part timer" despite being a founding member, but that doesn't really adress what you mentioned and how he doesn't call in Superman over from Metropolis whenever he comes across Metahumans.

 Grimskul wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

I think this is the problem when you have an expanded universe and most of the heroes are on speaking terms or better with one another. Some issues that could have been easily solved or addressed because of friends/connections with other heroes or characters get hand-waved away for the sake of plot contrivances.

DC struggles so hard to reconcile Batman as both an urban myth vigilante and simultaneously one of the foremost leaders of single most recognizable and powerful super hero organization on the planet.

Pretty much, definitely one of the problems of Batman being a prominent member of the Justice League. I remember the DCAU sort of addressed this kind of conflict with Batman mostly being a "part timer" despite being a founding member, but that doesn't really adress what you mentioned and how he doesn't call in Superman over from Metropolis whenever he comes across Metahumans.

They usually handwave it as a pride thing and Batman's loner mentality. Gotham definitely wants to be a bubble reality most of the time though, to the point where Nightwing has a different red head girlfriend depending on which side of the fence he's on.

While I have enjoyed their team up from time to time I still know the only reason for it is money. They are two wildly different power levels, genres, and settings that make no sense when put together. Street level noir crime mystery and three color sci-fi fantasy adventures of a demi-god are wildly at odds.

 Easy E wrote:

A lot of people bagged on Eternals, but it was still way better than whatever the last three movies were supposed to be.

Maybe on a technical level? But it was boring & (other than teasing the Black Knight) full of characters I just don't give a crap about. True, I've never cared about the Eternal comics wise, but I gave the movie the benefit of the doubt. Who knows, maybe it could be a surprise like Shang-Chi (another character I've never cared one way or another about - but turned out to be an entertaining enough movie).... Nope. Just a waste of my time & $.
Thor: L&T though? Ok, maybe it's not the best entry the MCU has to offer, but I was at least entertained by characters I like.

Love & Thunder seems to be Thor’s Happy Ending.

Remember, he lost pretty much everything in the run up to End Game. Indeed out of all The Avengers, perhaps only Wanda has had a rougher ride over the years. Had he jobbed Thanos in the face with Stormbreaker, that would’ve been job done. But his wrath over took him, the need to be up close and personal at the end.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Love & Thunder seems to be Thor’s Happy Ending.

Remember, he lost pretty much everything in the run up to End Game. Indeed out of all The Avengers, perhaps only Wanda has had a rougher ride over the years. Had he jobbed Thanos in the face with Stormbreaker, that would’ve been job done. But his wrath over took him, the need to be up close and personal at the end.

Yeah, Love and Thunder is a character piece about Thor finding contentment despite all his tragedy. He has been hurting for a very long time. I think it's a pretty great look at him coming out the other end of grief.

Love & Thunder destroyed 10 years of character development. And it turned him into an idiot at the same time.

That movie didn't have Thor finding contentment. It had him getting a labotomy.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Love & Thunder destroyed 10 years of character development. And it turned him into an idiot at the same time.

That movie didn't have Thor finding contentment. It had him getting a labotomy.

Love and Thunder is a story being told to us by Korg. The more outrageous bits are Korgs embellishments (riding storm breaker like a witches broom). But you cannot look at the conversations between Thor and Jane on the ship heading to Gorrs shadow world, in the hospital, when she arrives to help fight Gorr and he dispairs, or when he is holding her as she dies in Eternity's chamber and seriously think this is the character with a lobotomy and having all his character undone. He is making peace not just with losing Jane, but with all the losses he has suffered over those 10 years. When he says to Gorr, "You won. Why would I spend my last minutes with you when I could spend them with her? You could chose to bring her back. You could chose love." it is Thor finding a positive purposeful outlook on the future instead of the drifting through conflicts and pain he has been doing since his mother was killed. He makes peace with his losses. Finally. Taking Love under his care isn't just battles for battles sake. He is actually living his life for the first time in a long time.

"It's a story told by Korg" doesn't make it any better.

The movie is bad. The Marvel/Taika humour is awful. Korg remains the worst character in the MCU (other than maybe X-Men Origins Wolverine's Deadpool Taskmaster). It's a stupid film that insults its audience and makes the main character into a gormless moron.

It lacks internal consistency and external consitency.

It was sad - because the Thor in Ragnarok was still a bit of a fool, and I get the pain and loss etc. But then they seemed to take it to an extent that made little sense. It was more of a parody Thor than the joke short of him living with a random house share.

Ragnarok was a hugely inconsistant film - good start and most of the middle - crappy end sequence

The_Real_Chris wrote:
It was sad - because the Thor in Ragnarok was still a bit of a fool, and I get the pain and loss etc. But then they seemed to take it to an extent that made little sense. It was more of a parody Thor than the joke short of him living with a random house share.

It’s the Thor of Infinity War and End Game as well.

Infinity War? He blew it. As Thanos said, he should’ve gone for the head.

End Game? He’s living with what he perceives as multiple failures. First when Thanos attacked the Asgardian ship, killing half of those aboard, including Loki and Heimdall. Then half the universe. He’s retreated into himself. King in name only. One could even argue he surrounded himself with enablers in the form of Korg and Meik, even though by then he’d slain Thanos, it was all for naught.

End Game we see him find himself somewhat. Not just by talking with his Mum (something that hits me personally, having lost my own Mum), but even Mjolnir answering his call. Especially Mjolnir answering his call. By the end, he’s cut himself some slack, hands over the monarchy, and we come to Love & Thunder.

I felt LnT was a letdown. Korg is such a horrible character, so defending it as As Told By Korg isn’t helping it. Turning Thor into an idiot. Anthropomorphising the hammers. Making the Guardians so useless. The child soldiers. The Got Danged Goats. I don’t hate Taika, but I’m glad he’s not doing any more of them.

My wife and I both really liked Eternals. It's a slow burn but well acted with meaningful character interactions. I think its one of the few things that likely would have thrived as a TV series instead.

I put Ragnarok as one of the best films in the entire MCU but the follow up is one of the worst, IMO. I think the story itself is fine and I adore the end but it just doesn't have the balance Ragnarok pulled off, making it a pretty cringy watch all the way through rather than in just a couple poorly timed moments.

 AduroT wrote:
Making the Guardians so useless.

I didn't mind that... it did actual remind everyone that the power level imbalance in superhero films is rather extreme!

My family and I enjoyed Love and Thunder as light entertainment. Probably helps that we weren’t too invested in the character of Thor so much as the light/comedic tone and lore of the MCU.

Eternals felt like an ambitious failure, which makes it interesting, if not exactly fun to watch. I hope they bring back the actor who played Druig, because he was the only compelling one, besides the Bollywood comedy duo.

Eternals I’m kind of ambivalent about.

As a single movie? It’s…perfectly competent. Nothing wrong with it. The cast are solid, and the whole of the thing works.

But as an MCU film? It sticks out like a Goth at a Garden Party*.

There’s nothing wrong with a film Being It’s Own Thing. But Eternals just doesn’t really fit.

*I speak from personal experience.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"It's a story told by Korg" doesn't make it any better.

The movie is bad. The Marvel/Taika humour is awful. Korg remains the worst character in the MCU (other than maybe X-Men Origins Wolverine's Deadpool Taskmaster). It's a stupid film that insults its audience and makes the main character into a gormless moron.

It lacks internal consistency and external consitency.

You take this stuff too seriously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AduroT wrote:
I felt LnT was a letdown. Korg is such a horrible character, so defending it as As Told By Korg isn’t helping it. Turning Thor into an idiot. Anthropomorphising the hammers. Making the Guardians so useless. The child soldiers. The Got Danged Goats. I don’t hate Taika, but I’m glad he’s not doing any more of them.

You know they've done that in the comics well before this movie, right?

ccs wrote:

You take this stuff too seriously.

Well its a continuum isn't it? I though Ragnarok captured the heroic silliness of the whole premise brilliantly. Saying that my favourite superhero shows have been suicide squad 2 and the boys tv series. So I am certainly on the jaded end of things. Suicide squad 2 though was brilliant, no idea why it isn't more viewed.