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 Grimtuff wrote:
We all know who the protagonists are and who the NPCs are in this game. GW just made it more obvious than ever before.

It's not as if Death Guard are the first codex to have silly equipment restrictions. Have a look at the sororitas HQ entry for the character variation of the same.

What I don't get is why GW are restricting units to equipment 'in box' when they must have been making good money in the past from box sales for bitz. There seemed to be a whole sales strategy behind letting a squad take a pair of guns and only supplying them with one per purchase.

Its no big deal, just buy 3 boxes so you can run 2x10 and use the remaining model to make another HQ choice, like an Aspiring Champi.... Oh wait.

GW makes the gane to sell models. They don't make models for the game. All of 8th and 9ths wombo combo, unit specific rules is merely emblematic of this.

With a bit of luck, they'll create a Legends entry to reflect their old loadouts. Like Sanguinary Priests.
Although I think it's a forlorn hope.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
With a bit of luck, they'll create a Legends entry to reflect their old loadouts. Like Sanguinary Priests.
Although I think it's a forlorn hope.

and the entry will be so badly underpowered that you would be better off with nearly anything else in the game. Why would they reward you with a competant entry? You've already given them their money.

 Da Boss wrote:
I don't get how people can say this is good because it stops min maxing, when this is the first codex this edition designed like this and the other codices this edition (including loyalist marines) have not had this done to them.

How do you defend that? It is a paradigm shift part way through an edition.

I would be totally in favour of wargear options matching what is available in the box if all armies followed the same principle and it didn't screw the old armies. The current situation sucks but it isn't much of an issue for anyone starting a new army.

I hate paradigm shifts that happen in the middle of an edition. Then again, 40k is too bloated and inconsistent that any changes in design philosophy are not going to fix it regardless of when they are made.

This has nothing to do with power level. I would play death guard if they were the worst army in the game.

This has everything to do with making peoples units illegal to play.

I've spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours painting my army to a top quality. Now i have to cut their weapons off just because some fething idiot at GW doesn't know how to write rules properly?

If you think this kind of behaviour is acceptable, it means you don't care when they do this to any army. And if you don't care, then there's no point having a contrary opinion to people who are legitimately put out by this.

My question is, should I start ripping the arms off my Dark Eldar and Black Legion now? or should I wait until their codex drops to see what they've invalidated.

I will preface what I am about to say with saying these two datasheets are rather crazy. If GW is going to limit the datasheet to reflect the models so closely, they really should have paired down the weapon list so that many items were functionally the same (does the unit really need 4 different melee weapons along with the Plague Knife before we even get to Champion options). It is also odd that they went with the 1 in 5 options rather than 2 per unit. Now on to the main points.

Why aren't Space Marines limited like this? If you mean Firstborn Marines, you have a valid question. Primaris Marines are pretty much limited to what is in the kit plus the various upgrade kit options for the Sergeant. Even the Sergeant options are limited to the Intercessor units. The long-standing Firstborn Marine kits that were largely constructed to be kit-bashed, so I suspect they didn't want to toss over that apple cart. Some more recent releases for other armies were designed with limited kit-bashing intended (Chaos Space Marines and Havoks, Battle Sisters and Retributors), so I expect those designed cross-overs will remain valid. I would not be surprised if designed kit bash becomes the limitations on units in the future.

Is this good? Certainly not for people who went through the effort of creating move-effective units by tracking down the bits. It may very well be better for the game as a whole of such mim-maxing is prevented, but I doubt that was the intent. It will encourage more background-compliant looking forces if they sort out the option rules and cost. They certainly took a strong crack at narrowing the effectiveness differences in melee and special weapons.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:


My question is, should I start ripping the arms off my Dark Eldar and Black Legion now? or should I wait until their codex drops to see what they've invalidated.

Wait for the Codizes. If there's one thing we can say about GW it is that they are consistently inconsistent. They might be reading the reactions to the Plague Marines and Blightlords and not fix it for DG but start returning the Dark Eldar and CSM datasheets to their old way while we speak .

alextroy: It is notable though that the new space marine kits are already optmised in the min-max sense. You have units all with the same weapon already, right? So they come pre-specialised for their role.

But true that retributors should allow a max of 2 multi meltas, or stop the nonesense for Death Guard. Its obnoxious.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:


My question is, should I start ripping the arms off my Dark Eldar and Black Legion now? or should I wait until their codex drops to see what they've invalidated.

Wait for the Codizes. If there's one thing we can say about GW it is that they are consistently inconsistent. They might be reading the reactions to the Plague Marines and Blightlords and not fix it for DG but start returning the Dark Eldar and CSM datasheets to their old way while we speak .

You realize　right that de are coming next month and books are done way in advance? If this changes　anything it's for last third of books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
alextroy: It is notable though that the new space marine kits are already optmised in the min-max sense. You have units all with the same weapon already, right? So they come pre-specialised for their role.

But not for old kits. And it's not like pm is new kit. Consistency missing

tneva82 wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:


My question is, should I start ripping the arms off my Dark Eldar and Black Legion now? or should I wait until their codex drops to see what they've invalidated.

Wait for the Codizes. If there's one thing we can say about GW it is that they are consistently inconsistent. They might be reading the reactions to the Plague Marines and Blightlords and not fix it for DG but start returning the Dark Eldar and CSM datasheets to their old way while we speak .

You realize　right that de are coming next month and books are done way in advance? If this changes　anything it's for last third of books.

You're right about DE, I remembered that they're already on the way after I posted. It will be interesting to see how they're handled then. Since they have old kits only probably no change like for "old" marines...
CSM will be the real reveal, their kits are of a similar age like PM and they're similarly restricted in options that come with the kit(s).

This is the sort of thing that illustrates how terrible GW still is at customer relations. If they were going to make a shift this way (which who knows if they actually are, given that normal Space Marines conveniently escaped it...), it should have been done in some big announcement a year ago: "by the way guys, with 9th, we've made the difficult to decision to generally limited wargear options for squads to what you find in the box. We wanted to let you know now ahead of time so you can plan ahead. We know this is going to inconvenience some people with existing collections that will become technically illegal to field, so in recognition of that, we're going to offer cheap weapon sprues with the release of each new codex to allow effected players to easily source the parts to make their models legal again. We know this doesn't make up for the difficulty of having to cut up and repaint your models, but we wanted to do what we could."

Instead we get this crap just dumped on people with zero explanation and zero recognition of what a dickish thing it is to do to people.

yukishiro1 wrote:
This is the sort of thing that illustrates how terrible GW still is at customer relations. If they were going to make a shift this way (which who knows if they actually are, given that normal Space Marines conveniently escaped it...), it should have been done in some big announcement a year ago: "by the way guys, with 9th, we've made the difficult to decision to generally limited wargear options for squads to what you find in the box. We wanted to let you know now ahead of time so you can plan ahead. We know this is going to inconvenience some people with existing collections that will become technically illegal to field, so in recognition of that, we're going to offer cheap weapon sprues with the release of each new codex to allow effected players to easily source the parts to make their models legal again. We know this doesn't make up for the difficulty of having to cut up and repaint your models, but we wanted to do what we could."

Instead we get this crap just dumped on people with zero explanation and zero recognition of what a dickish thing it is to do to people.

Yup. Which tells me that, while this might be an overall change, it wasn't thought about with the level of regard it needed.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:


You're right about DE, I remembered that they're already on the way after I posted. It will be interesting to see how they're handled then. Since they have old kits only probably no change like for "old" marines...

More like they've culled almost everything that didn't have the corresponding model from Drukhari they could since 6th edition.

Hecaton wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
This is the sort of thing that illustrates how terrible GW still is at customer relations. If they were going to make a shift this way (which who knows if they actually are, given that normal Space Marines conveniently escaped it...), it should have been done in some big announcement a year ago: "by the way guys, with 9th, we've made the difficult to decision to generally limited wargear options for squads to what you find in the box. We wanted to let you know now ahead of time so you can plan ahead. We know this is going to inconvenience some people with existing collections that will become technically illegal to field, so in recognition of that, we're going to offer cheap weapon sprues with the release of each new codex to allow effected players to easily source the parts to make their models legal again. We know this doesn't make up for the difficulty of having to cut up and repaint your models, but we wanted to do what we could."

Instead we get this crap just dumped on people with zero explanation and zero recognition of what a dickish thing it is to do to people.

Yup. Which tells me that, while this might be an overall change, it wasn't thought about with the level of regard it needed.

Then why does the loyalist SM codex have no such restrictions? Sternguard can take any combi weapons, Devastators can take any heavy weapons etc.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Then why does the loyalist SM codex have no such restrictions? Sternguard can take any combi weapons, Devastators can take any heavy weapons etc.

We all know why.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Then why does the loyalist SM codex have no such restrictions? Sternguard can take any combi weapons, Devastators can take any heavy weapons etc.

We all know why.

Like I said, "And they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!"

Playing Devil's Advocate here.
It's not because Space Marines are special, but due to the poseability and interchangability of kits.

The Plague Marines are very monopose with just a few options of loadouts for each model. That plasma gun is going on torso A and none-other (out of the box).
Whereas the Sternguard kit is fully interchangable.
Where Space Marine kits are monopose - like the Sanguinary Priest, all their options have been removed. (Except the jump pack on the Sanguinary Priest because players screamed bloody murder. Which maybe defeats my point slightly).

I'd also argue that Primaris kits haven't escaped it at all. The only options you get are what's in the box. It's just generally not obvious due to the fact that there's no prior precedent for anything.

bullyboy wrote:But true that retributors should allow a max of 2 multi meltas, or stop the nonesense for Death Guard. Its obnoxious.

tneva82 wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
alextroy: It is notable though that the new space marine kits are already optmised in the min-max sense. You have units all with the same weapon already, right? So they come pre-specialised for their role.

But not for old kits. And it's not like pm is new kit. Consistency missing

But it is somewhat consistent. You can't have anything in a 10-model unit of Plague Marines that you can't build out of two copies of the box just like you can't have any heavy weapons in a unit of Retributors you can't build out of two copies of the box.

Of course, you can't build a 10-model unit of Retributors out of two boxes because you have no Bolter Sisters...

 Grimtuff wrote:


Then why does the loyalist SM codex have no such restrictions? Sternguard can take any combi weapons, Devastators can take any heavy weapons etc.

Drukhari Scourges only have one of each weapon in their kit and I highly doubt that in the new codex they will be forced to play with what's in the box. They'd certainly keep the Devastators' freedom of choice.

 Blackie wrote:
Drukhari Scourges only have one of each weapon in their kit and I highly doubt that in the new codex they will be forced to play with what's in the box. They'd certainly keep the Devastators' freedom of choice.

That's the million dollar question, isn't it. Guess we'll see when the DE Codex comes out.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Drukhari Scourges only have one of each weapon in their kit and I highly doubt that in the new codex they will be forced to play with what's in the box. They'd certainly keep the Devastators' freedom of choice.

That's the million dollar question, isn't it. Guess we'll see when the DE Codex comes out.

Limiting those models with what's in their box would invalidate the unit, which isn't the case of plague marines now that they have some of their options removed.

 Blackie wrote:
Limiting those models with what's in their box would invalidate the unit...

How?

I wonder what this mean for Guard, being that their Infantry kit is only a flame and a Grenade launcher, everything else comes in another box.

Can't take a Plague Spewer on a DP unless it has a Sword. Can't take wings if you do.

Can't take an Orb of Dessication (or whatever it's called) on your HQ unless you take a Manreaper as well.

GW are just making this worse and worse. And to think I thought "Finally! They're moving forward" when they gave the DG special rules and toughness boost to Terminator Lords/Sorcerers. Boy did I jump the gun.

One step forward, three steps diagonally backwards, and then they fall on their face.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
I wonder what this mean for Guard, being that their Infantry kit is only a flame and a Grenade launcher, everything else comes in another box.

Yeah. I wonder.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
I wonder what this mean for Guard, being that their Infantry kit is only a flame and a Grenade launcher, everything else comes in another box.

Probably nothing, given that Guard Sergeants have not been able to take lasguns for three editions now despite the kit having enough to outfit all 10.

Or they might finally just shut up and do the thing they should have been doing for editions now and differentiated Guardsmen from Conscripts better.

But there are no "Sergeant" stripes on the Lasgun arms, Kan. We can't be giving the wrong model the wrong parts, now can we?

It's so fluffy! GW can do no wrong!