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It's obviously a huge improvement, but I'm not sure what I think. It's pushing so hard to be dramatic but the stakes and dialog just don't really justify the constant barrage of weighty choral music over everything. I feel like I'm on the razors edge of mockery, but the dialog is never QUITE hamfisted enough to push me over the edge.
The bank scene really sums up my feelings overall. Like, its really cool and the extra dramatic stakes are a step up from the original, but a lot of the extra time gives my brain a moment to just have tons of questions. Like the slow mo bullet dodging doesn't click with the time on the bomb and she's given SO much time to just take the gun away at the end. She also ends the scene basically destroying a building to take out the one guy for no real reason. It's STILL better, but its interesting to watch them back to back and see how much lighting and pacing matters.
LunarSol wrote: Like the slow mo bullet dodging doesn't click with the time on the bomb and she's given SO much time to just take the gun away at the end.
Yep, that bothered me as well. Common annoying trope in films. If they are going to add a timer to build tension, make it accurate ffs.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
I am probably minority but I liked the old Steppenwolf more. He felt more Apokoliptian.The new one, with his weirdo ''horns'' being actually a part of him, looked like a separate species rather than a member of the same race as Desaad etc.
It's obviously a huge improvement, but I'm not sure what I think. It's pushing so hard to be dramatic but the stakes and dialog just don't really justify the constant barrage of weighty choral music over everything. I feel like I'm on the razors edge of mockery, but the dialog is never QUITE hamfisted enough to push me over the edge.
The bank scene really sums up my feelings overall. Like, its really cool and the extra dramatic stakes are a step up from the original, but a lot of the extra time gives my brain a moment to just have tons of questions. Like the slow mo bullet dodging doesn't click with the time on the bomb and she's given SO much time to just take the gun away at the end. She also ends the scene basically destroying a building to take out the one guy for no real reason. It's STILL better, but its interesting to watch them back to back and see how much lighting and pacing matters.
Well, no one's ever just...disarmed efficiently...in a Snyder film, LOL. Gotta rub some funk on it. Superman went to town on Steppenwolf there. And Diana could have just tossed him through. I get the rationale for their actions, but it didn't HAVE to be foot to the floor there with either of them.
There were also scenes where it seemed like he just used every scrap of footage he had. We didn't need to hear the WHOLE Icelandic song, LOL. That's why I think a 3-3:15 hour cut of it might be really good. Lots of the extra stuff is better, but there's plenty of room to pare it down.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/03/19 20:35:14
Shadow Walker wrote: I am probably minority but I liked the old Steppenwolf more. He felt more Apokoliptian.The new one, with his weirdo ''horns'' being actually a part of him, looked like a separate species rather than a member of the same race as Desaad etc.
On that matter, I found his armour always just sort of shifting somewhat distracting. A CGI lesson in can not meaning should.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I thought the old version was completely uninteresting visually, so a little too much visual interest with this one didn't bother me.
Here's a little thing that I really liked the concept for -- the molten metal communication via the Mother Boxes. It was clearly like a parallel technology to the Kryptonian nanotech bead thing from MoS...just more sinister. Guess it's also underlined by the scout ship's reaction to the Mother Box. "ME NO LIKEY!"
Maybe that sounds dumb, but I love good concept work like that. Thorough thinking.
Oh...Ryan Choi! Crispus Allen! Fan service-y easter eggs maybe, but it's fun seeing a well-populated DC universe.
gorgon wrote: And I don't know why he'd be in the black suit at the very end, other than ZS just thinks it's cool.
I was wondering about that as well and the best guess I have is that he wore black to eat up solar energy faster as, iirc, the first thing after putting it on is fly into space and soak up some rays.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Here's a little thing that I really liked the concept for -- the molten metal communication via the Mother Boxes. It was clearly like a parallel technology to the Kryptonian nanotech bead thing from MoS...just more sinister. Guess it's also underlined by the scout ship's reaction to the Mother Box. "ME NO LIKEY!".
I liked this one too.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/20 09:38:57
That four hour run time is probably due to the slow mo. Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Yeah, I also wondered about WW not just taking the guy’s gun and why she destroyed the bank. Super lucky all that debris managed to not hit anyone below.
How much does Arthur spend on shirts? Where does he keep them all? He has to pull his shirt off and toss it aside every time he gets in the water, where apparently local lasses then collect them to snuggle and sniff.
Flash seems dramatically more powerful here, while simultaneously more useless in a fight. He apparently can’t touch anything without destroying it, which would be more real life accurate granted, but it doesn’t leave him with much to do. He’s told to help evacuate the prisoners and all he does it run back and forth telling them to hurry up. His primary contribution is a battery charger.
The effects, such as Steppenwulf, didn’t look Better to me so much as More Expensive.
Why did the Atlantans lose the ability to speak underwater? They just made dolphin noises, and had to hydrokenesis up air pockets every time they wanted to have a conversation.
I liked Martian Manhunter’s cameo. He does such a minor thing giving a pep talk to Lois and yet he inadvertently saved the world doing it. Why did he not help more? He probably didn’t know what was going on. He’s hidden well enough that Batman didn’t know about him to try and recruit him.
Black suit Supes is ok. I know in the cartoons/comics it was indeed to increase solar absorption to speed his recovery from death, but he seemed pretty darn recovered right off the bat and they make no reference to a need for such and he’s still wearing it at the end. Except for nightmare, where he apparently now goes back to red and blue for evil.
Power levels are weird. So, Aries is able to deal a wound bad enough on Darkseid that he full retreats. Wonder Woman beat Aries in single combat. Steppenwulf repeatedly gives WW a beat down even when she has help. Superman TRIVIALLY puts down Wulf, like zero effort on his part. Why should we be afraid of Darkseid now? We’re Told he’s a top dog, but he’s so far down this ladder of one upmanship now.
Overall, I did enjoy the movie and found it suitably entertaining. It handles some stuff better, but with double the runtime it should. Otherwise it just feels so pretentious. The music, the slow mo, the 4:3 I deserve to be in imax aspect ratio, everything just screams self important.
Power levels are weird. So, Aries is able to deal a wound bad enough on Darkseid that he full retreats. Wonder Woman beat Aries in single combat. Steppenwulf repeatedly gives WW a beat down even when she has help. Superman TRIVIALLY puts down Wulf, like zero effort on his part. Why should we be afraid of Darkseid now? We’re Told he’s a top dog, but he’s so far down this ladder of one upmanship now.
I agree with the exception of the Darkseid. When he fought with the Ares he was known as Uxas = before the Omega power = he was on a level of the Old Gods. Now he is much more powerful.
Power levels are weird. So, Aries is able to deal a wound bad enough on Darkseid that he full retreats. Wonder Woman beat Aries in single combat. Steppenwulf repeatedly gives WW a beat down even when she has help. Superman TRIVIALLY puts down Wulf, like zero effort on his part. Why should we be afraid of Darkseid now? We’re Told he’s a top dog, but he’s so far down this ladder of one upmanship now.
I agree with the exception of the Darkseid. When he fought with the Ares he was known as Uxas = before the Omega power = he was on a level of the Old Gods. Now he is much more powerful.
I don’t believe that is something I’ve ever heard about before.
Power levels are weird. So, Aries is able to deal a wound bad enough on Darkseid that he full retreats. Wonder Woman beat Aries in single combat. Steppenwulf repeatedly gives WW a beat down even when she has help. Superman TRIVIALLY puts down Wulf, like zero effort on his part. Why should we be afraid of Darkseid now? We’re Told he’s a top dog, but he’s so far down this ladder of one upmanship now.
I agree with the exception of the Darkseid. When he fought with the Ares he was known as Uxas = before the Omega power = he was on a level of the Old Gods. Now he is much more powerful.
I don’t believe that is something I’ve ever heard about before.
You just need to google his backstory. He was born as Uxas, a nephew of the Steppenwolf, before becoming a Darkseid.
I still find that something to be a major flaw in the movie, because you shouldn't have to go out of your way to research the villain's background to know that "wasn't even his final form!" type of information.
When you get somewhere by spaceship, which requires navigation, which I can’t see being done without star charts.....
How the hell do you “lose” that planet? I mean.....how?
I also found it confusing when Steppenwolf did the axe thing, and then said “it’s here, I’ve found it”, we’d not heard anything about the anti-life. All we’d seen was Darkseid doing the same axe thing when the big battle scene was kicking off.
So I assumed, and I daresay a fat slice of the audience assumed, he was meaning the third box, which he and we knew already.
But no, a bit later “I have found the anti-life”. With no explanation of what it is, or why Darkseid wants it.
I daresay that was a treat for people up on their DC, but I was just plain old baffled.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Here’s one, why now? The mother box called out because Superman died! Uuuuuuhhhhhh... They’ve been here for like 5000 years give or take. Superman’s been an active thing for like only a couple dozen. Were they sitting around like ok, after all these millennia now, now is the time! Oh, wait, no, check out that guy we better not. Oh wait, never mind, he died.
I think, for whatever reason, the implication was that the Earth was vulnerable for the first time in millennia, and it was Superman's death cry which the boxes heard that tipped them off.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I think, for whatever reason, the implication was that the Earth was vulnerable for the first time in millennia, and it was Superman's death cry which the boxes heard that tipped them off.
I mean I guess? It seems like Earth was a lot more vulnerable prior to Superman landing though, if they had invaded around the time of WW2, where basically none of the current heroes were active, it seems to make more sense. Heck, even after Ares murdered the whole Greek Pantheon would be a decent time to jump in, or when Ares himself died.
How do they even know what a Kryptonian is? They didn’t leave their planet hardly ever, that’s why they all* died when it blew up except for him. And the whole yellow sun thing was another shocking discovery. He hadn’t really made a name for himself off planet yet, being really rather new to the scene on earth still.
When you get somewhere by spaceship, which requires navigation, which I can’t see being done without star charts.....
How the hell do you “lose” that planet? I mean.....how?
Spoiler:
I get the impression that they hadn't traveled by spaceships for some time and it also hinted at that something happened far in the past that changed the dynamic of the group: Steppenwolf was exiled, Darkseid looked different as well as being shown more vulnerable in the past, and so on. There may have been some Dark Ages sort of period where a lot was lost. In MoS they showed Krypton had lost a lot over time as well when they became isolationist such as giving up on space travel and losing contact with a bunch of their old colonies. At the end Darkseid seemed to be referring to travel by spacecraft as "the old ways" which implies they hadn't done that in some time.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
I don't know if they show up in the film but... If you can travel instantly throughout the galaxy via boomtubes, some other modes of transport probably would be old fashioned.
2021/03/21 05:34:14
Subject: Re:Zack Snyder's Justice League new trailer
So verdict is that it's a vast improvement, but still not necessarily good?
Side comment:
I think a bit of DC's lore is going to continue to hold it back when it comes to movies. It's just so much cheesier IMO, to Marvel. Marvel has elements that are absurd, Rocket and Thor being the first two that come to mind and Spider-Man is at least on par with Batman in terms of being a silly dude with an animal name.
Yet DC just has so much corniness. Darkseid from the planet Apokolips? C'mon man, that's comparable to what an 8 year old would come up as names. Granny Goodness...actual Greek Gods and a backstory for Wonder Woman/Amazonians that borders on nonsensical. The Anti-Life Equation as well. It's just hard to take seriously when the names are so absurd and it tries to be deathly serious via Snyder.
I think the MCU gets away with it by being much more light-hearted, using real names frequently over aliases, and by toning down costumes to be more believable.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
The big difference between marvel movies and the DC stuff we get is Marvel makes Movies that have super heroes in them and are about super heroes. DC make superhero movies circa 1998+.
Or to elaborate, Marvel doesn't treat superhero as a genre and then make movies in that genre. At least not in a long time. DC does. Marvel makes Comedies, Dramas, political/spy action films. They released a Tragedy towards the end of phase 3. They are ABOUT Super heroes, but they are not schlocky Super Hero Movies ala Dare Devil, X-Men, Ramis Spiderman, or Blade. With that intention to make an actual movie featuring these characters FIRST and not defaulting to a "genre" of film that has had no truly great films in it the material gets treated with a level of .... respect? seriousness? something that makes it more than what DC is doing with it.
Both universes are full of exactly the same cheesy nonsense. Ego is a planet with a face on it, remember? I just saw Batroc the Leaper for the second time in live action. But it's not treated as something for the funny pages.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/21 17:09:27
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Ok, finished it. Never felt like four hours. Breezed by.
And I really liked it. Marked improvement on the original version - I mean it really is a different film, even if some of the elements are similar or outright the same. The action beats just made more sense. The fight under the Gotham harbour, Themiscyra the fight at the end as well (no 'saving civilian' sub-plot nonsense). The movie had time to breathe, something it needed because DC decided to sprint before they could crawl and do an "Avengers" film without taking the time to introduce any of the characters bar Superman.
I actually liked Barry in this one - I came away finding him super-annoying in the original version - and I like how they did his speed.
Wonder Woman and Aquaman kicked ass, and whilst I still think "Is this guy still bothering you?" from the original version is the most Superman-y line ever committed to film, I love how they did his appearance in this; just no-selling Steppenwolf's axe.
Speaking ol' Steppy: He was great! His motivations were clear, he looked better, he was reasonably intimidating, yet at the same time I liked his relationship with DeSaad and Darkseid.
The flash forward was interesting - reminding me of Wolverine & The X-Men, where a good part of the season is set in the future in a post-apocalyptic world controlled by the Sentinels - and think that'd be a cool film to see.
Even the Joker was't annoying, though I'd love to know why he's part of that group.
Yeah, that was a huge improvement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/21 13:43:51
AduroT wrote: How do they even know what a Kryptonian is? They didn’t leave their planet hardly ever, that’s why they all* died when it blew up except for him. And the whole yellow sun thing was another shocking discovery. He hadn’t really made a name for himself off planet yet, being really rather new to the scene on earth still.
Man of Steel explains it pretty clearly. Kryptonians left the planet quite a bit during an expansionist period in which they colonized the galaxy. Until...something...began destroying their colony worlds. They pulled back, and at the time of Superman's birth they had exhausted most of Krypton's resources. That's why they couldn't leave the planet en masse...they were alone, without resources, and a dying civilization on a dying world.
The Mother Boxes may or may not have known Kryptonians exactly, but it's not really important. The boxes were hibernating and 'woke' when Superman - a cosmic-level being - died. Like bumping the mouse to get a computer out of sleep mode.
FWIW, I really like the idea that Krypton and Apokolips had tangled in the past, and the scout ship's reaction to the Mother Box nicely underlined that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: Why did the Atlantans lose the ability to speak underwater? They just made dolphin noises, and had to hydrokenesis up air pockets every time they wanted to have a conversation.
Because when James Wan made his Aquaman film, he ditched all the air bubble stuff to instead just have them...talk. There are other little inconsistencies, such as Mera saying that she was orphaned. Different creators doing things differently.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/22 00:35:24
I'm not a fan of Snyder in the slightest (I haven't even seen any of his other movies save Man of Steel, which I did not enjoy), but Justice League was pretty much everything I wanted out of a big-budget DC "Avengers" equivalent. One of the things that people don't often talk about concerning DC is that DC, is a much more spectacle-focused franchise than Marvel ever will be. Almost every last comic under the DC brand either sets out to elicit either extremely strong positive emotions (awe, "coolness," sense of scale, et cetera) or extremely strong negative emotions (shock, outlandishly high stakes, cruel and depressing realism, et cetera). Basic comedy stories like most Deadpool stuff or low-to-the-ground stories with minimal stakes such as the archetypical Spider-Man comics/movies just don't work with DC's style. The DC universe is a place that at its best, is either brutally depressing and realistic, or, as is more often the case, wonderfully outlandish and committed to high stakes and memorable fights and setpieces over anything else.
The Justice League movie gave me everything I wanted in that regard. The story had some minor inconsistencies (as has been said before: How did Darkseid just forget where the Anti-Life Equation was?), but it was still good enough to follow and the action scenes were definitely worth it. I believe every last League member was done justice, especially the new additions. The setups for all the now-canned sequel and spinoff films were, with one exception, extremely well-implemented to the point where a couple of them might not even be seen as such. There were a ton of changes from the comics, which is great, because I'm pretty sure just about all of them made the movie much better. I like what Snyder did with Aquaman and Cyborg in particular, as I believe pretty much everyone else does as well. Even the pacing was great. I don't get why everyone hates additions such as the Icelandic song or Wonder Woman exploring the temple. Sure, they don't directly contribute to the plot, but they were still interesting and certainly worth my time.
Spoiler:
The only thing I didn't like about the movie was the flash-forwards. Jared Leto's Joker was surprisingly good, sure, but the whole concept just seemed unnecessary, contrived, and generally boring. Like, they could have just added a line where Batman or Wonder Woman says they've been getting bad dreams about Superman turning evil once Lois Lane dies and been done with it. That alone probably would have cut like thirty minutes out of the runtime. Also, this is a minor detail, but in one of those flash-forwards, we see evil Superman standing behind the corpses of a bunch of heroes, including what seems to be the Green Lantern who died in the flashback? What on earth is up with that?
The scene where Martha Kent is revealed to be the Martian Manhunter also probably should have been cut, as much as it pains me to say. The scene is more powerful if it's actually her.
All in all, it was a really good movie, and I just don't understand most of the complaints about it. It's just a problem with my brain, I suppose.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Since a lot of people are talking about it, I actually rather liked the justification for why Darkseid hadn't invaded yet. It probably should have been explained more, but I think Steppenwolf's "no Lanterns, no Kryptonian" line sums up everything well enough, provided you're aware of what he probably means. From what he's saying here, it seems like until around the time of Man of Steel, the Green Lantern Corps (all Green Lanterns are space cops) had a guy keeping an eye on Earth and the surrounding planets. Something has evidently happened to him, but by that point, as gorgon mentioned, Steppenwolf was instead keeping away due to prior bad experiences with Kryptonians. Superman's death was the first time where both of those failsafes were out of the picture.
This idea is actually supported by the comics. The current Green Lantern story established back in the naughts that Earth's previous Lantern went a bit nuts at the end, fething off and starting a doomsday cult instead of actually doing his job. Presumably, this would have been explained if DC's plan went right and they released a Green Lantern movie, retroactively wrapping up the Steppenwolf "plothole," but it sadly seems that that future will not come to pass.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/22 08:34:35
