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 Xenomancers wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

isn't that what dire avengers are compared to guardians?

Ah, Eldar steroids only affects leadership.

I am suggesting they get +1 attack.

When it comes to kabalites and their +1 attack on their stat sheet - it makes sense. Khabs are professional pirates. Guardians are literally potters that get a space suit and a catapult to fight in the most fire of needs.

Guardians are also often former Aspect Warriors.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

isn't that what dire avengers are compared to guardians?

Ah, Eldar steroids only affects leadership.

I am suggesting they get +1 attack.

When it comes to kabalites and their +1 attack on their stat sheet - it makes sense. Khabs are professional pirates. Guardians are literally potters that get a space suit and a catapult to fight in the most fire of needs.

Guardians are also often former Aspect Warriors.

Yeah but it has always been the weird thing with guardians. They possibly have all that experience but they don't tap in it or extremely rarely, meanwhile warlocks are defined as being seers who walked the warrior path previously, implying that for them this previous experience matters.
Anyway, if guardians get +1 to their save like kabalites and better guns (heavy platform weapons don't make much sense since 8th and the catapult might need a range update) and stay at 1 attack, I don't think it would be shocking.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

isn't that what dire avengers are compared to guardians?

Ah, Eldar steroids only affects leadership.

I am suggesting they get +1 attack.

When it comes to kabalites and their +1 attack on their stat sheet - it makes sense. Khabs are professional pirates. Guardians are literally potters that get a space suit and a catapult to fight in the most fire of needs.

Guardians are also often former Aspect Warriors.

Isn't the point of the Path system that each Path you walk on is basically the only thing you know? So as soon as you step off the Path of the [Aspect Warrior] you basically forget everything about being an Aspect Warrior and solely focus entirely on being a potter?

That was my understanding of it.

Rihgu wrote:
Isn't the point of the Path system that each Path you walk on is basically the only thing you know? So as soon as you step off the Path of the [Aspect Warrior] you basically forget everything about being an Aspect Warrior and solely focus entirely on being a potter?

That was my understanding of it.

It's a bit all other the place imho. When writers wants previous paths to matter, they do, otherwise, they don't.

dhallnet wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am suggesting they get +1 attack.

Ah my bad.
But why would you limit all aspects to 2 though.

Inclubi have 3. I think banshees getting 3 would also be suitable and likely going to str 4 with power sword buff. Scorps get +1 attack basically by virtue of their mandi blasters which is basically another attack. I jsut feel 2 should be the base of an aspect warrior. You really don't want firedragons/reapers/and other ranged focused aspects to be stuck on a 3 attack statline.

Rihgu wrote:
...Isn't the point of the Path system that each Path you walk on is basically the only thing you know? So as soon as you step off the Path of the [Aspect Warrior] you basically forget everything about being an Aspect Warrior and solely focus entirely on being a potter?

That was my understanding of it.

Which would be more comforting if the Space Marines didn't get to out-perform all your stuff in the specialized field you're supposed to have focused so hard on you've forgotten how to do anything else.

Rihgu wrote:Isn't the point of the Path system that each Path you walk on is basically the only thing you know? So as soon as you step off the Path of the [Aspect Warrior] you basically forget everything about being an Aspect Warrior and solely focus entirely on being a potter?

That was my understanding of it.

It's not a total loss, but it is significant. Most of the experience stays with the mask to improve the next ones to talk the path, but there is something left over. At least enough is left for the Storm Guardians (i.e. Guardians with pistol and sword) to be a thing. That's part of their background, at least.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
...Isn't the point of the Path system that each Path you walk on is basically the only thing you know? So as soon as you step off the Path of the [Aspect Warrior] you basically forget everything about being an Aspect Warrior and solely focus entirely on being a potter?

That was my understanding of it.

Which would be more comforting if the Space Marines didn't get to out-perform all your stuff in the specialized field you're supposed to have focused so hard on you've forgotten how to do anything else.

Oh, I agree. Aspect warriors should definitely be fearsome opponents that excel in what they're supposed to, especially compared to generalist Space Marines. But Guardians maybe shouldn't be, because they're militia conscript forces.
They *should* be better than human conscript/militia forces, though.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
...Isn't the point of the Path system that each Path you walk on is basically the only thing you know? So as soon as you step off the Path of the [Aspect Warrior] you basically forget everything about being an Aspect Warrior and solely focus entirely on being a potter?

That was my understanding of it.

Which would be more comforting if the Space Marines didn't get to out-perform all your stuff in the specialized field you're supposed to have focused so hard on you've forgotten how to do anything else.

There is no question that most aspect warriors are in a bad place right now - compared to space marines (no suprise though - they weren't even great in 8th edition except for a few exceptions). Incubi are pretty great though. Their issue is fundamental - just doing a lot of damage in melee doesn't make you a good melee unit. Melee units need to be able to take a punch ether through lots of wounds or an invuln save. What aspect can take a hit in melee? Maybe banshees? I am actually excited to see how banshees do when they get upped to str 4 which I am sure is coming.

 Xenomancers wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am suggesting they get +1 attack.

Ah my bad.
But why would you limit all aspects to 2 though.

Inclubi have 3. I think banshees getting 3 would also be suitable and likely going to str 4 with power sword buff. Scorps get +1 attack basically by virtue of their mandi blasters which is basically another attack. I jsut feel 2 should be the base of an aspect warrior. You really don't want firedragons/reapers/and other ranged focused aspects to be stuck on a 3 attack statline.

Well not that an additional F3 AP0 attack would change much against most thing that would assault reapers or dragons in the first place. But I kinda agree with that, they aren't supposed to need a lot of attacks.
Banshees are already str 4 with weapon buff, they would need something else. Incubi are kinda decent at 3 attacks because their weapons are effective.
And while it does a mortal wound, as long as they hit on 6s, it's hard to consider mandiblasters as a 3rd attack.
It should probably be 2 base and 3 for HtH specialists (might be an issue for shining spears) and a wargear update for most.

dhallnet wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

isn't that what dire avengers are compared to guardians?

Ah, Eldar steroids only affects leadership.

I am suggesting they get +1 attack.

When it comes to kabalites and their +1 attack on their stat sheet - it makes sense. Khabs are professional pirates. Guardians are literally potters that get a space suit and a catapult to fight in the most fire of needs.

Guardians are also often former Aspect Warriors.

Yeah but it has always been the weird thing with guardians. They possibly have all that experience but they don't tap in it or extremely rarely, meanwhile warlocks are defined as being seers who walked the warrior path previously, implying that for them this previous experience matters.
Anyway, if guardians get +1 to their save like kabalites and better guns (heavy platform weapons don't make much sense since 8th and the catapult might need a range update) and stay at 1 attack, I don't think it would be shocking.

Yeah, well the Guardians aren't donning their old Banshee helmets or anything either. They have that nice BS3+ WS3+ for a solid level of competency to reflect any former training I think.

And yes, the Shuriken Catapult should be 18 or 24" range these days. I'd vote for 24, personally. It was their original range and on parity with Bolters. Now that Bolters have lost all of their previous disadvantages comparative to the SC, it's time to put the SC back at 24".

The Heavy Weapons platform makes sense to me if it negates the penalty for moving and firing.

dhallnet wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Isn't the point of the Path system that each Path you walk on is basically the only thing you know? So as soon as you step off the Path of the [Aspect Warrior] you basically forget everything about being an Aspect Warrior and solely focus entirely on being a potter?

That was my understanding of it.

It's a bit all other the place imho. When writers wants previous paths to matter, they do, otherwise, they don't.

The paths are there to enable eldar to concentrate on just one thing at a time to curb excess and the path to Slaanesh. They don't forget everything as they move on.

The original fluff from the 40k Compilation states:
"Each new role does not totally replace those that went before, but merely adds to the Eldar's accumulated experience. As the Eldar pass through these different stages they explore the many aspects of their own character.
...
When an Eldar becomes an Aspect Warrior he does not cease to utilise the facets of his character which he has already developed through his progress along the Eldar Path. Indeed, he deliberately continues to pursue the arts of peace, and will typically keep on practicing his own artistic talents. Thus Aspect Warriors form a community of practicing g warriors, poets, orators, dancers and musicians. This is a strong contrast between their role as fighting warriors, as indeed it is meant to be."

Then it goes on to talk about the split between the warrior and non warrior side of the Eldwr and the importance of the war mask in all of this.

Later under the Guardian entry it states that those guardians who have acted as aspect warriors in the past are tapped as officers.

Insectum7 wrote:Yeah, well the Guardians aren't donning their old Banshee helmets or anything either. They have that nice BS3+ WS3+ for a solid level of competency to reflect any former training I think.

And yes, the Shuriken Catapult should be 18 or 24" range these days. I'd vote for 24, personally. It was their original range and on parity with Bolters. Now that Bolters have lost all of their previous disadvantages comparative to the SC, it's time to put the SC back at 24".

The Heavy Weapons platform makes sense to me if it negates the penalty for moving and firing.

Yeah, they weren't always hitting on 3s though. Not that it matters, it just feels weird, in some places it seems we have stuff like "and this dude is awesome since he walked the warrior path before" next to "and yeah, these dudes might have walked the warrior path but it doesn't really matter".
And weapon platforms don't remove the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon anymore since 8th (unless I've been playing them wrong all this time, which isn't out of my league )

Flinty wrote:The paths are there to enable eldar to concentrate on just one thing at a time to curb excess and the path to Slaanesh. They don't forget everything as they move on.

I know, it's just an opinion. I feel like it isn't consistent.

dhallnet wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Yeah, well the Guardians aren't donning their old Banshee helmets or anything either. They have that nice BS3+ WS3+ for a solid level of competency to reflect any former training I think.

And yes, the Shuriken Catapult should be 18 or 24" range these days. I'd vote for 24, personally. It was their original range and on parity with Bolters. Now that Bolters have lost all of their previous disadvantages comparative to the SC, it's time to put the SC back at 24".

The Heavy Weapons platform makes sense to me if it negates the penalty for moving and firing.

Yeah, they weren't always hitting on 3s though. Not that it matters, it just feels weird, in some places it seems we have stuff like "and this dude is awesome since he walked the warrior path before" next to "and yeah, these dudes might have walked the warrior path but it doesn't really matter".
And weapon platforms don't remove the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon anymore since 8th (unless I've been playing them wrong all this time, which isn't out of my league )

Yeah Guardians started out as BS3 (4+ to hit). Their vehicles and weapons platform had targeters making it a 3+ to hit. Then they all just became 4+ to hit, and then later they upgraded them to 3+ to hit. Personally I like the 3+ for them as a basis, representing a base superiority over humans via either nascent ability or technological bonus.

The Weapons Platform losing it's move-and-fire benefits for 8th was really jarring. It should just have them back.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Weapons Platform losing it's move-and-fire benefits for 8th was really jarring. It should just have them back.

Annoying, but it could work if the Guardians around it weren't just using shotguns. If the Guardians' other guns had any decent range, it wouldn't be as necessary to move the platforms then. As it is, their only job at present is to Guard the Weapon Platforms.

dhallnet wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Yeah, well the Guardians aren't donning their old Banshee helmets or anything either. They have that nice BS3+ WS3+ for a solid level of competency to reflect any former training I think.

And yes, the Shuriken Catapult should be 18 or 24" range these days. I'd vote for 24, personally. It was their original range and on parity with Bolters. Now that Bolters have lost all of their previous disadvantages comparative to the SC, it's time to put the SC back at 24".

The Heavy Weapons platform makes sense to me if it negates the penalty for moving and firing.

Yeah, they weren't always hitting on 3s though. Not that it matters, it just feels weird, in some places it seems we have stuff like "and this dude is awesome since he walked the warrior path before" next to "and yeah, these dudes might have walked the warrior path but it doesn't really matter".
And weapon platforms don't remove the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon anymore since 8th (unless I've been playing them wrong all this time, which isn't out of my league )

Flinty wrote:The paths are there to enable eldar to concentrate on just one thing at a time to curb excess and the path to Slaanesh. They don't forget everything as they move on.

I know, it's just an opinion. I feel like it isn't consistent.

Shuri cats should 100% Go to being 24". Avenger cats should be 30" and maybe have some innate AP.

Asurmens shuriken catapult should be at least better then some rando mon khai inquisitor

Yeah the texture of Guardians gets a lot better with 24" range.

4 attacks: Fine on Reivers, underpowered even, Reivers need buffed!

4 S3 Ap- attacks: Super overpowered on an army that's had that since 7th and sat eternally at <50% wr, utterly problematic, can't be useful, oh by the way they still lose in melee to basic bitch space marines with any melee weapon :^)

You know absolutely that's only ONE problem with Reivers.

the_scotsman wrote:
4 attacks: Fine on Reivers, underpowered even, Reivers need buffed!

4 S3 Ap- attacks: Super overpowered on an army that's had that since 7th and sat eternally at <50% wr, utterly problematic, can't be useful, oh by the way they still lose in melee to basic bitch space marines with any melee weapon :^)

Yeah but we are talking about xenos you can't only give them good things.

Tyel wrote:
My suspicion is that CWE were going to be Ynnarified like Primaris, but then GW got cold feet. And now they aren't quite sure what to do. But hey, maybe late 2021, or early 2022 could be Eldar's big year.

I think you might be on to something here. The primaris pushback might have given GW pause and encouraged them to think about the justification of Ynnarification. Interesting to think about what sort of reborn eldar army might be capable of...

ablebodie wrote:

Tyel wrote:
My suspicion is that CWE were going to be Ynnarified like Primaris, but then GW got cold feet. And now they aren't quite sure what to do. But hey, maybe late 2021, or early 2022 could be Eldar's big year.

I think you might be on to something here. The primaris pushback might have given GW pause and encouraged them to think about the justification of Ynnarification. Interesting to think about what sort of reborn eldar army might be capable of...

I think they did respond to pushback, but it was the pushback from AoS (particularly squatting factions), not primaris. It might have saved (or at least delayed things) for old marines as well.

Its one thing to squash 'badly performing' factions from the game that is 'less successful' and in 'need' of a reboot. Its quite another to risk the flagship.

Any "pushback" against Primaris would probably be totally ignored since the release of that model line quadruples your end of year profits annually, catapults the company stock to levels its never seen before and sees numbers of people brought into the GW ecosystem that totally dwarf the release of LOTR nearly 20 years ago.

fething pushback my ass lmao. It's the most successful product line GW have ever made.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah the texture of Guardians gets a lot better with 24" range.

Yeah, the catapult needs an upgrade. Maybe two firing modes would work? Make it, say Heavy 1 24" range AP-1 or Assault 2 12" range with the current shuriken rules. Not sure that'd be enough but it would also reinforce the citizen soldiery aspect by allowing Guardians to act as a firebase rather than a sacrificial screen.

ablebodie wrote:

Tyel wrote:
My suspicion is that CWE were going to be Ynnarified like Primaris, but then GW got cold feet. And now they aren't quite sure what to do. But hey, maybe late 2021, or early 2022 could be Eldar's big year.

I think you might be on to something here. The primaris pushback might have given GW pause and encouraged them to think about the justification of Ynnarification. Interesting to think about what sort of reborn eldar army might be capable of...

What pushback?

The pushback that lead to two further waves of Primaris Marines?

The pushback that resulted in first borne marines still existing, perhaps.

 Argive wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Yeah, well the Guardians aren't donning their old Banshee helmets or anything either. They have that nice BS3+ WS3+ for a solid level of competency to reflect any former training I think.

And yes, the Shuriken Catapult should be 18 or 24" range these days. I'd vote for 24, personally. It was their original range and on parity with Bolters. Now that Bolters have lost all of their previous disadvantages comparative to the SC, it's time to put the SC back at 24".

The Heavy Weapons platform makes sense to me if it negates the penalty for moving and firing.

Yeah, they weren't always hitting on 3s though. Not that it matters, it just feels weird, in some places it seems we have stuff like "and this dude is awesome since he walked the warrior path before" next to "and yeah, these dudes might have walked the warrior path but it doesn't really matter".
And weapon platforms don't remove the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon anymore since 8th (unless I've been playing them wrong all this time, which isn't out of my league )

Flinty wrote:The paths are there to enable eldar to concentrate on just one thing at a time to curb excess and the path to Slaanesh. They don't forget everything as they move on.

I know, it's just an opinion. I feel like it isn't consistent.

Shuri cats should 100% Go to being 24". Avenger cats should be 30" and maybe have some innate AP.

Asurmens shuriken catapult should be at least better then some rando mon khai inquisitor

Totally on board with this. It would actually be a lot of fun to play with footdar if you could just take bircks of 20 man gardians with warlock spells and advance around the battlefield shooting rending weapons. Just think how "nifty" a dire avenger would be with battle focus running 11 inches to utilzies LOSB and focus down the one unit that could see them with a 30" range. Then they would be worth their points maybe.

Asureman should have an assault 4 range 24" ap-3 d1 catapult that does mortals on 6's.

Sign me up now. I'll get 40 more guardians and play some serious ulthwe, eldar peasant smackdown!

Ofc as an ulthwe player myself...can we get a serious point drop on warlocks? Back in 4th and 5th I always ran a maxed out unit of foot warlocks and it was probably the most fun I had in 40k ever. I'd also put them in all my guardian squads. Also is their any reason that that are so weak psychically? A warlock should realistically be as adept as any other psyker that isn't a daemon.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Totally on board with this. It would actually be a lot of fun to play with footdar if you could just take bircks of 20 man gardians with warlock spells and advance around the battlefield shooting rending weapons. Just think how "nifty" a dire avenger would be with battle focus running 11 inches to utilzies LOSB and focus down the one unit that could see them with a 30" range. Then they would be worth their points maybe.

Asureman should have an assault 4 range 24" ap-3 d1 catapult that does mortals on 6's.

Sign me up now. I'll get 40 more guardians and play some serious ulthwe, eldar peasant smackdown!

Ofc as an ulthwe player myself...can we get a serious point drop on warlocks? Back in 4th and 5th I always ran a maxed out unit of foot warlocks and it was probably the most fun I had in 40k ever. I'd also put them in all my guardian squads. Also is their any reason that that are so weak psychically? A warlock should realistically be as adept as any other psyker that isn't a daemon.

At least give warlocks more than 2 wounds honestly

I thought Warlocks were W3.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I thought Warlocks were W3.

They are, when on bikes.
Otherwise they're W2.