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Cronch wrote: It still needs kinetic energy to move through the air and target...and I suppose AP of -6 since it can slice through molecules.
Monomol edged weapons in 40k are common tech - your average half-starved hive-gang reject might reasonably be carrying several. What shuriken weapons have is rate of fire.
Ok, and? guns are common tech, and they still punch holes in stuff. Unless 40k has non-sliceable molecules, at which point why even bother mentioning they're monomolecular if they're fundamentally just weaker conventional ammo?
PenitentJake wrote:Now I'm working on a pet theory; Necrons and SM got huge amounts of attention because they were starter factions. Everyone else gets Codex speed releases with minimal model support.
So... explain Orks and Sisters under this theory.
We're looking at multiple kits for both. At least two for Sisters (past the Lt that just came out), and at least 2 for orks (some character we've seen bits of, and the Squigrider), with a video hinting at several more, at the least.
Armies associated with the first campaign book aren't getting anything beyond (1) character so far (3 of 4 factions), so the idea that army refreshing is tied to campaigns is already demonstrably not true.
Perhaps I didn't choose my words well.
Yes, there is a campaign cycle happening right now. But Codexes are also coming out right now- which is why the second campaign cycle will be the one with the larger refresh releases. They've got to get those dexes out- until it's done, that is the priority for the game.
Its... not, though? The priority is both. For both systems, too. Sometimes its a big codex release (necrons), sometimes its a big broken realms campaign release (cosplay elves), sometimes its a big battletome release (Slaanesh).
A full codex line probably should be a priority for GW. But... should is meaningless. Reality is it isn't. And as much as I'd like to know whats next and get quite a few factions updated, slowing down is better to me than the constant churn and burn since 7th (and especially 8th). And campaign books are a huge part of that terrible system.
You are correct, of course correct about two models previewed for Orks and an additional two models previewed for sisters. And they might come out with dexes and mess with my theory a bit. But we don't know when any of those releases will come. Either way, neither release will be the size of the Guard and Eldar releases though, which is essentially what I'm trying to get at: releases of range refresh size happen with the starter kits; then we get a codex blitz with fewer releases. Then once the dexes are all out, campaigns have to drive the release cycle, and that opens up the space for more model releases.
I'm baffled at your assertion that the guard and eldar will definitely get big releases. There is -nothing- to back that up. There's at least several things that could be ork bits in the Rumour Engine pics, nothing for eldar. The guard stuff that has shown up has come out with limited edition models that have nothing to do with a codex OR a campaign book! Orks and sisters have a lot more legs for big releases. We've _seen_ stuff. There are a lot of hints at even _more_ stuff (a sisters fighter/bomber, a whole slew of ork things). There's nothing to indicate these won't come with a codex, and probably in the next 3 months or so.
For eldar and guard we've got an empty void with cricket sound effects. Frankly, we've seen more signs of Tyranids lately.
Campaign books don't drive the release cycle. Traditionally they're one and done with a wide release for several factions. With PA it was sometimes something, sometimes nothing, and varied wildly. And it was also clearly end-of-edition content that wasn't driving the release cycle but retiring it in favor a new edition. (which was why Pariah basically fizzled out in a non-update for necrons and... whoever else was lumped in that book)
Like I said- it's a pet theory; good chance a few details are off. They might refresh a range during the dex release cycle since their plan of 2 dexes/ month fell through. But that was the plan before the shipping crap went crazy, and I just don't see how they could plan to release 2 dexes per month if they were also planning to release 5 or more kits to accompany some of those releases- it would saturate the market and people would end up buying less because they'd have to pick and choose the things they wanted most if everything was all available at the same time.
It just seems baseless, not 'a few details off.' It contradicts everything we've actually seen. Yes, the pacing is thrown off from their original plans. But it doesn't mean they're throwing out releasing kits, or 'saturating the market' in... some way. (If power and pain is any indication, they're underproducing again- the opposite of saturating). One of the things the delays inherently does is prevent squeezing too much into too small a time period. Part of it is that the flipping between codex with a lot of models and codex with a model. That's how they aren't over producing, and they're buying production time by pairing a codex with a single model with something with a lot of models- lately those have been AoS. Ad Mech will probably be close to the release of Cursed City (both should be april, now). Be'lakor will have his campaign book and model after that, and will probably be in the same month as a big 40k release- probably sisters or orks.
All the 'shipping crap going crazy' has delayed and spaced out releases. That's it. It hasn't, by any indication, actually changed them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/23 18:17:41
The same Teclis that's also getting a new Lumenith battletome (aka codex) at the same time?
This is same format we saw for the 8.5 Chaos last time (folding in their new units). If Sisters are in Warzone Charadon Book 2, I suspect they'll get an updated codex the same way, simply because their 8th edition codex isn't really that old. Alternately they'll follow the SM model (3 codexes in about 3 years) and just give them another codex without any pretense. There is a small chance they'll do an engine war style of release, but that seems low odds- they need a 9th edition codex with crusade rules and all that, so might as well get it done.
With orks, there isn't any reason they won't get a big release and a codex. They're pushing these 'beast snaggas' as an equivalent of the cult of speed (and we're seeing hints at more general units as well), so that seems like the next really big 40k release.
Look, a theory is a cute thing to have, but not when it runs head first into evidence to the contrary, and has a complete lack of evidence that actually supports it.
The first warzone book brought _0_ units.
We _know_ Orks and Sisters are getting multiple units and hints for more. Getting a new codex as well would be a perfectly reasonable thing (and there are a lot of army books they need to do).
We have rumor engine pics of Tyranid looking things.
Guard and Eldar are an empty void. We have nothing to even hint at them. Maybe the second half of the year, maybe next year. But there are a lot of known models and pieces of models (rumor engine) that don't belong to either of them.
DE are done. Ad Mech are April. It very much looks like Sisters, Orks and Tyranids are the next several releases into June/July, with models and books.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/03/23 21:54:39
The first warzone book brought _0_ units.
We _know_ Orks and Sisters are getting multiple units and hints for more. Getting a new codex as well would be a perfectly reasonable thing (and there are a lot of army books they need to do).
We have rumor engine pics of Tyranid looking things.
Guard and Eldar are an empty void. We have nothing to even hint at them. Maybe the second half of the year, maybe next year. But there are a lot of known models and pieces of models (rumor engine) that don't belong to either of them.
DE are done. Ad Mech are April. It very much looks like Sisters, Orks and Tyranids are the next several releases into June/July, with models and books.
Think I've been misunderstood... Probably not writing clearly. Let me try again.
The Charadon Campaign is the first full cycle campaign release of 9th. While it is happening, Dexes are coming out. Because dexes are coming out, yes, of course the datacards are going to be in the dex and not the campaign books. But the campaign book is driving the cycle by choosing the order in which the dexes are released.
Once the first full cycle campaign is over, the second one will start. The plan was that all the dexes would be out by then, which would have meant that in the second cycle, datacards would have nowhere to go except campaign books. At that point, the campaign will be driving things entirely. What remains to be seen is whether or not the second campaign cycle continues to include a supplement and an AoR for each of the factions in addition to those datasheets.
I agree entirely that Orks and Sisters are getting dexes soon. I suspect that they will also be featured in the 2nd Charadon book. We may get the Palatine, Paragon and Castigator when the dex drops- it would make far more sense to do it that way. We'll get some ork stuff too. And you're right- that is more models than I expected when I first posted in the this thread, so in a sense, the theory isn't holding up exactly. We'll see if the Knights follow the Admech, or if they jump right into the armies from Charadon Act 2.
It would make sense if Knights had no models to move their dex to the end of the cycle in order to keep the campaign moving. So even if they don't release Knights, it doesn't necessarily mean that the pattern wasn't there. Bumping the Knights to the end of the cycle might actually be the only thing that could get us back on track. The fact that we had a big 40k prerelease weekend and we're getting a big AoS pre-release the following week suggests that GW might be getting its production/ shipping issues worked out. Here's hoping.
And I don't deny that I have no evidence- I have maintained since the beginning that this is speculation.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
dan2026 wrote: Yep. Some low-tech, all purpose squig using Orks.
Heh, for a second when I glanced at this, I thought you were saying an all-TERRAIN squig! Talk about an interesting explanation for the Boar Boyz of old.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Falcon needs primary weapon options. Can’t remember if I’ve said that already. And if so, I can’t remember if I made suggestions as to what.
I think it’s fine with just the pulse. If you want to flex its role, you have the secondary/chin guns.
Allow too many options and you are going to start encroaching on the other tanks. It and the WS already have enough issues with each other.
I like the falcon. Upping the punch on the pulse laser is all it needs.
Scatter lasers need to become scary again. I say - give them str 7 ap -2 4 shots. The game really needs more of this kind of weapon. Pretty much it becomes the eldar autocannon.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: I like the falcon. Upping the punch on the pulse laser is all it needs.
Scatter lasers need to become scary again. I say - give them str 7 ap -2 4 shots. The game really needs more of this kind of weapon. Pretty much it becomes the eldar autocannon.
Right now the Starcannon is the Eldar Autocannon, 2 shots at D2, it just has a -3 AP. Autocannon/Plasma Cannon.
The Scatter Laser should be many shots with weaker AP, as is imo. The real problem it has is the wounding chart, as it used to wound T4 on 2s.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/24 20:37:03
Xenomancers wrote: I like the falcon. Upping the punch on the pulse laser is all it needs.
Scatter lasers need to become scary again. I say - give them str 7 ap -2 4 shots. The game really needs more of this kind of weapon. Pretty much it becomes the eldar autocannon.
Right now the Starcannon is the Eldar Autocannon, 2 shots at D2, it just has a -3 AP. Autocannon/Plasma Cannon.
The Scatter Laser should be many shots with weaker AP, as is imo. The real problem it has is the wounding chart, as it used to wound T4 on 2s.
Yeah I am just thinking the scatter laser needs a roll. It has no roll with its currently profile. Honestly no eldar weapons should be ap-0 IMO. They are an advanced race...kinda makes me think your armor should be next to useless against their guns.
Starcannon is supposed to be the eldar plasma cannon. It is a plasma weapon. It should just be a plasmacannon but better and more reliable. With marine plama hitting at str 8-9 and ap -3/4 and 2-3 damage. That should be the base for this weapon.
IMO it should be d3 shots blast str 8 ap-3 flat 3 damage. OFC this weapons should also be about 25-30 points.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: Wasnt there a rule a while back that scatter laser would buff up the rest of the shooting?
Yes. I think it was only in 6th. Made for some broken things. Although with all the re-rolls kicking around these days, probably not a big deal anymore.
Argive wrote: Wasnt there a rule a while back that scatter laser would buff up the rest of the shooting?
Yes. I think it was only in 6th. Made for some broken things. Although with all the re-rolls kicking around these days, probably not a big deal anymore.
Id like if scat lazors had some quirky tracer fire rule. On top of decent horde killing potnetial. It could always be fired at heavier stuff in order to buff shooting for extra utility.
Otherwise you'd only ever see either shuri canon taken or heavy weapons like Star canons.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: Wasnt there a rule a while back that scatter laser would buff up the rest of the shooting?
Yes. I think it was only in 6th. Made for some broken things. Although with all the re-rolls kicking around these days, probably not a big deal anymore.
Id like if scat lazors had some quirky tracer fire rule. On top of decent horde killing potnetial. It could always be fired at heavier stuff in order to buff shooting for extra utility.
Otherwise you'd only ever see either shuri canon taken or heavy weapons like Star canons.
Back in those Ward codex days, the Scatter laser laser-lock rule gave twin-linked to other guns on the same model.
It's actually not a bad rule, and Guard used to have something similar from FW with the pintle-mounted rules that allowed re-rolls for misses on the main gun if the pintle-mounted storm bolter fired at the same target.
I actually really like those rules and wish they would return. Since later editions are becoming more and more 'aura-hammer' editions, something like this would allow vehicles to not have to interact with character's auras and would maybe make them a bit more versatile for the modern game.
The issue is that a scatter laser is a pretty decent weapon in its own right, which I think is what pushed the pintle-mounted scatter laser rules over the edge. It basically became a way to twin-link dual scatter lasers or the bright lance that was on the falcon kind of became a little extra bonus for those few people that ran falcons. Maybe we could do a similar thing with something like an 'auxiliary scatter laser', or a 'auxiliary shuriken cannon', or something of that nature with reduced number of shots and a limit to the number of them you can take on a vehicle, but which allow you to re-roll hits with the primary weapon system.
Argive wrote: Wasnt there a rule a while back that scatter laser would buff up the rest of the shooting?
Yes. I think it was only in 6th. Made for some broken things. Although with all the re-rolls kicking around these days, probably not a big deal anymore.
Id like if scat lazors had some quirky tracer fire rule. On top of decent horde killing potnetial. It could always be fired at heavier stuff in order to buff shooting for extra utility.
Otherwise you'd only ever see either shuri canon taken or heavy weapons like Star canons.
Back in those Ward codex days, the Scatter laser laser-lock rule gave twin-linked to other guns on the same model.
It's actually not a bad rule, and Guard used to have something similar from FW with the pintle-mounted rules that allowed re-rolls for misses on the main gun if the pintle-mounted storm bolter fired at the same target.
I actually really like those rules and wish they would return. Since later editions are becoming more and more 'aura-hammer' editions, something like this would allow vehicles to not have to interact with character's auras and would maybe make them a bit more versatile for the modern game.
The issue is that a scatter laser is a pretty decent weapon in its own right, which I think is what pushed the pintle-mounted scatter laser rules over the edge. It basically became a way to twin-link dual scatter lasers or the bright lance that was on the falcon kind of became a little extra bonus for those few people that ran falcons. Maybe we could do a similar thing with something like an 'auxiliary scatter laser', or a 'auxiliary shuriken cannon', or something of that nature with reduced number of shots and a limit to the number of them you can take on a vehicle, but which allow you to re-roll hits with the primary weapon system.
Lack of AP realy doesnt make it a good weapon IMO. Shuriken just seems better in every instance
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Games mechanics wise it sounds fine, but it triggers my “gah” gland
Ballistic ranging using a coaxial MG is one thing. Using a laser weapon to assist in the ability of another laser weapon on the vehicle to hit a target is bizarre. If the gunner can see the target in the gunsight, by definition they will hit it at 40k Battlefield ranges.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Argive wrote: Wasnt there a rule a while back that scatter laser would buff up the rest of the shooting?
Yes. I think it was only in 6th. Made for some broken things. Although with all the re-rolls kicking around these days, probably not a big deal anymore.
Id like if scat lazors had some quirky tracer fire rule. On top of decent horde killing potnetial. It could always be fired at heavier stuff in order to buff shooting for extra utility.
Otherwise you'd only ever see either shuri canon taken or heavy weapons like Star canons.
Back in those Ward codex days, the Scatter laser laser-lock rule gave twin-linked to other guns on the same model.
It's actually not a bad rule, and Guard used to have something similar from FW with the pintle-mounted rules that allowed re-rolls for misses on the main gun if the pintle-mounted storm bolter fired at the same target.
I actually really like those rules and wish they would return. Since later editions are becoming more and more 'aura-hammer' editions, something like this would allow vehicles to not have to interact with character's auras and would maybe make them a bit more versatile for the modern game.
The issue is that a scatter laser is a pretty decent weapon in its own right, which I think is what pushed the pintle-mounted scatter laser rules over the edge. It basically became a way to twin-link dual scatter lasers or the bright lance that was on the falcon kind of became a little extra bonus for those few people that ran falcons. Maybe we could do a similar thing with something like an 'auxiliary scatter laser', or a 'auxiliary shuriken cannon', or something of that nature with reduced number of shots and a limit to the number of them you can take on a vehicle, but which allow you to re-roll hits with the primary weapon system.
Lack of AP realy doesnt make it a good weapon IMO. Shuriken just seems better in every instance
I'll admit I'm not really an expert here, but doesn't the fact that a scatter laser has (I think) 6 shots kind of override the lack of AP? If you run three dual-Scatter Laser War Walkers, you're pumping out 36 S6 shots, and that doesn't seem to be anything to sneeze at. Unless I'm misremember and they aren't Heavy 6, which is perfectly possible!
Admittedly, I would be happier to see something like Heavy 4 S6 AP-1 D1 with some way to boost that to AP-2 like Tau can do, but that is just me.
Argive wrote: Wasnt there a rule a while back that scatter laser would buff up the rest of the shooting?
Yes. I think it was only in 6th. Made for some broken things. Although with all the re-rolls kicking around these days, probably not a big deal anymore.
Id like if scat lazors had some quirky tracer fire rule. On top of decent horde killing potnetial. It could always be fired at heavier stuff in order to buff shooting for extra utility. Otherwise you'd only ever see either shuri canon taken or heavy weapons like Star canons.
Back in those Ward codex days, the Scatter laser laser-lock rule gave twin-linked to other guns on the same model.
It's actually not a bad rule, and Guard used to have something similar from FW with the pintle-mounted rules that allowed re-rolls for misses on the main gun if the pintle-mounted storm bolter fired at the same target.
I actually really like those rules and wish they would return. Since later editions are becoming more and more 'aura-hammer' editions, something like this would allow vehicles to not have to interact with character's auras and would maybe make them a bit more versatile for the modern game.
The issue is that a scatter laser is a pretty decent weapon in its own right, which I think is what pushed the pintle-mounted scatter laser rules over the edge. It basically became a way to twin-link dual scatter lasers or the bright lance that was on the falcon kind of became a little extra bonus for those few people that ran falcons. Maybe we could do a similar thing with something like an 'auxiliary scatter laser', or a 'auxiliary shuriken cannon', or something of that nature with reduced number of shots and a limit to the number of them you can take on a vehicle, but which allow you to re-roll hits with the primary weapon system.
Lack of AP realy doesnt make it a good weapon IMO. Shuriken just seems better in every instance
I'll admit I'm not really an expert here, but doesn't the fact that a scatter laser has (I think) 6 shots kind of override the lack of AP? If you run three dual-Scatter Laser War Walkers, you're pumping out 36 S6 shots, and that doesn't seem to be anything to sneeze at. Unless I'm misremember and they aren't Heavy 6, which is perfectly possible!
Admittedly, I would be happier to see something like Heavy 4 S6 AP-1 D1 with some way to boost that to AP-2 like Tau can do, but that is just me.
It could do well against ork boys or cultists potential. But thats strictly tailoring skew matchup. BUT a twin AML pumps out 2D6 blast or just plain simply 12 Str 4 -1 1D shots against units with 10+ models (hordes) and also doubles up as heav 1 -2 D6 krak missle. Which against the scatter lazors intended targets is just better and its much better at killing power armor (of which there is a lot!) AMLhas the same range as a scat lazor.
Shuriken kind of does a bit of both with rending, good rof and access to doom which you take in droves on guardians/ DA.
Scat lazors just suck compared to anything else at any specific target, have no duality or utility. If they were free? I think they could see play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/30 16:17:53
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Part of the problem here is that they screwed with the shuriken cannon as part of their arbitrary range nerf on shuriken weapons.
Shuriken cannons were originally just a better heavy bolter and a scatter laser had its own multi unit targeting special rule (and just shot lots of shots, ignoring the sustained fire dice entirely).
IMO if they did something like this:
shuricannon
36" Heavy 4 S5 AP-1 D2 6s to hit AP-3
scat laser
48" Heavy 6 S6 AP-1 D1
Starcannon
36" Heavy 3 S7 AP-3 D3
Bright laser
36" Heavy 1 S8 AP-4 D D3+3 6s to hit autowound
Then there would be a greater distinction between them.
(the relative difference between them is more important than the actual suggested rules above).
It's also an opportunity for GW to create different versions of these heavy weapons for bikes - the cannon and scatter laser are smaller than the normal ones anyway.
So make them something like:
shuriken blaster
18" Assault 3 S5 AP0 D1 6s -3AP
scatter cannon
24" assault 4 S6 AP-1 D1
IMO if they just provided different profiles for different weapons it would help balance it out.
Also, they need to redo the pulse laser into a proper main gun, with the other heavy weapon added as a pintel or something.
pulse
60" Heavy 2 S9 AP-3 D 2+D3
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/30 21:25:23
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Hellebore wrote: Part of the problem here is that they screwed with the shuriken cannon as part of their arbitrary range nerf on shuriken weapons.
Shuriken cannons were originally just a better heavy bolter and a scatter laser had its own multi unit targeting special rule (and just shot lots of shots, ignoring the sustained fire dice entirely).
IMO if they did something like this:
shuricannon
36" Heavy 4 S5 AP-1 D2 6s to hit AP-3
scat laser
48" Heavy 6 S6 AP-1 D1
Starcannon
36" Heavy 3 S7 AP-3 D3
Bright laser
36" Heavy 1 S8 AP-4 D D3+3 6s to hit autowound
Then there would be a greater distinction between them.
(the relative difference between them is more important than the actual suggested rules above).
It's also an opportunity for GW to create different versions of these heavy weapons for bikes - the cannon and scatter laser are smaller than the normal ones anyway.
So make them something like:
shuriken blaster
18" Assault 3 S5 AP0 D1 6s -3AP
scatter cannon
24" assault 4 S6 AP-1 D1
IMO if they just provided different profiles for different weapons it would help balance it out.
Also, they need to redo the pulse laser into a proper main gun, with the other heavy weapon added as a pintel or something.
pulse
60" Heavy 2 S9 AP-3 D 2+D3
Love these ideas! Seriously, I'm so down for these!
Instead of trying to think of a pintle rule or something, maybe we could take advantage of the fact that the main battle tanks and larger fliers of the eldar have separate gunners, so to represent that they can re-roll ones to hit since the gunner only has the one responsibility. Then you could make a (the?) spirit stones upgrade for vehicles give a vehicle the ability to re-roll ones (if it doesn't already) or re-roll misses if it already re-rolls ones.
That sounds more complicated than I meant, but you get what I'm saying. Let the spirit stones represent the dearly departed helping the gunner with targeting and shooting the main guns.
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