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Intrigued to see Loremasters. I’m hoping we get some proper crunch detail from it.

 Orlanth wrote:
In fairness to Warhammer +, once the videos are up they stay up. So if they have new content every week as they promise the service may be piss poor now, but could be viable in six or twelve months time.
I can forgive them on this, my main problem with GW on Warhammer + are their methods.

For those tempted by Warhammer +, wait until 2022 before buying in. One of my friends has bought Warhammer +, I was NOT impressed with what I have seen of it, and believe my friend is quickly heading towards buyers remorse.

Yeah if they release 1-2 videos a week it might be okay to watch reruns you've already seen .....right?

What worries me is that we're getting 2021 White Dwarfs twice in a row. When are we going to get pre-2020 ones?

 GoldenHorde wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
In fairness to Warhammer +, once the videos are up they stay up. So if they have new content every week as they promise the service may be piss poor now, but could be viable in six or twelve months time.
I can forgive them on this, my main problem with GW on Warhammer + are their methods.

For those tempted by Warhammer +, wait until 2022 before buying in. One of my friends has bought Warhammer +, I was NOT impressed with what I have seen of it, and believe my friend is quickly heading towards buyers remorse.

Yeah if they release 1-2 videos a week it might be okay to watch reruns you've already seen .....right?

That's the point. Similar services don't change content much, but have a lot more to go with. Warhammer + only has GW games. I see value in a long term Netflix subscription, but Warhammer +, buy say one month every year starting with one year from now seems like the sensible buy in, if you want in at all.
I am being very charitable here, that is the only remotely logical buy in I can see, and I will not be getting it. I will not go so far as boycott, though I don't like what GW has done recently, I need go no further than apathy.

On the plus side of not having WH+ on my country, is that I can see all of this develop and, if I decide to jump on it, at least I will have from a good bunch to a ton of content to see.

That being said, I don't think they can mess up Loremasters. They have to be extremely talented to screw it up.

There's a reason they pushed W+ with a "free miniature" that you conveniently have to stay subbed for for a year to get. They know very well they have no basically content at this point, they're hoping people will pay for the first year anyway to get the miniature and by then they'll be used to having the monthly deduction and GW is betting they'll continue it, especially if there's another "free miniature" on offer for another year's worth of subscription fees.

They literally said when WH+ and the model were first announced that the model would be at the end of a year's subscription.

This is not new. This is not them "pushing" it. If you were not unaware of it?

That's on you.

I didn't say it was new, or that I was unaware of it? I'm almost impressed, I don't think I could misread what someone wrote that comprehensively even if I was trying.

We have seen how such subscriptions models turn out with CBS and Star Trek (or D+ and MCU/SW Shows)

the amount of people that want to see it in relase take the full sub and maybe stay after VS the amount of people who wait until it is done take the 1 month, watch all and chancel it

hence why GW added a bonus for going all-in right from the start, to convince those that might have waited until all is released

yukishiro1 wrote:
I didn't say it was new, or that I was unaware of it? I'm almost impressed, I don't think I could misread what someone wrote that comprehensively even if I was trying.

You said something that could be construed as a negative opinion on GW. What did you think was going to happen?

 kodos wrote:
We have seen how such subscriptions models turn out with CBS and Star Trek (or D+ and MCU/SW Shows)

the amount of people that want to see it in relase take the full sub and maybe stay after VS the amount of people who wait until it is done take the 1 month, watch all and chancel it

hence why GW added a bonus for going all-in right from the start, to convince those that might have waited until all is released

For sure, whoever GW has running W+ has to know this. It is a bit strange that they chose such niche models though. Unless they're planning to buff Vindicare assassins through the roof at the end of the year.

It would be really interesting to know the inside story of what W+ was supposed to be from the beginning vs what it is now. At what stage did they decide to add the "free" miniatures? Was this the plan all along, or did they originally plan to launch with a much broader range of content, so that they wouldn't need to throw in the sweetener?

Maybe even more interestingly...they only strong-armed the fan animators into working for them very recently, like only a couple months before the W+ release. W+ itself would have been in the planning stages for far longer than that. Was the original plan to make W+ fully in house, but then when they didn't have enough content themselves, did they decide at the 11th hour to rope in a bunch of fan animations by giving them a "deal" they couldn't refuse? Or was that always the plan? If it was always the plan, it's a pretty ballsy move to leave securing content to the last minute that way - what if the fan animators had simply said "screw you?" Then W+ would be even thinner than it already is.

I'm pretty sure free miniatures were point #1 on the white board on day 1 of the Warhammer+ ideas-shower_get-away weekend.

Yeah they were always intending to have models unique to Warhammer+ as well as freebies/tokens/discounts/special deals and such.


GW know that they'd never have enough media to compete with "actual" video streaming services*. Their whole approach with Warhammer+ was to present a multi-content platform not a single platform.

Free models, vouchers, app access, back access to WD, videos, tutorials, lore videos etc... GW have from the outset always had a lot of these ideas on the table.



The intent is clear and they know that different segments of their market will want different things. So by having a broad appeal they net far more people. It will be interesting to see if, in a years time, the unique models will go on general sale or if GW will slowly build a "library" of models unique to Warhammer+, adding a few each year.


*at least not for a decade or more and even then they'd only have enough for a few weeks of binge watching

It's hard to say, but I tend to agree that at the point at which Warhammer+ entered concrete planning, it was the varied offering we see now instead of a more focused one that got added to later on. While I obviously don't know for lack of insider knowledge, I see the animations as an attempt on GW's part to branch out and leverage their IP more efficiently in order to generate more profits. I don't see them as the origin of the service, since any means of generating the steady income a subscription service promises would have been the initial draw for GW regardless of specifics, but as a way of getting their foot in the door of video entertainment after they're already successfully covering novels, video games and merchandise. It makes no sense to exclude video entertainment using their IP and Warhammer+ happened to be a good vehicle for getting that off the ground.

I will say that it honestly boggles my mind that anyone would think of the miniatures specifically as an added incentive to the actual service or, even worse, as a last minute push to add value to the service. Miniatures are GW's core business. They've been doing limited edition and event miniatures forever. There is no way the miniature as long term subscription incentive was an afterthought at any stage of the process.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Maybe even more interestingly...they only strong-armed the fan animators into working for them very recently, like only a couple months before the W+ release. W+ itself would have been in the planning stages for far longer than that. Was the original plan to make W+ fully in house, but then when they didn't have enough content themselves, did they decide at the 11th hour to rope in a bunch of fan animations by giving them a "deal" they couldn't refuse? Or was that always the plan? If it was always the plan, it's a pretty ballsy move to leave securing content to the last minute that way - what if the fan animators had simply said "screw you?" Then W+ would be even thinner than it already is.

So GW is stong-arming them Corleone-style but at the same time the animators are totally able to say "screw-you" and refuse the 'offer', which in turn leaves GW vulnerable?
Hate to say it, dude, but you suck at logic.

No, you don't hate to say it, because if you hated to say it, you wouldn't have, since it's such a bad argument to make. You said it because you wanted to say it, even though it's a poor argument.

If someone gives you the choice of going to work for them or losing your current income stream, you *could* potentially say "screw you, I'll find some other way to make money." Is it likely? No. But it's possible.

Obviously there is no such thing as a deal you truly can't refuse. The phrase refers to a deal where the power is stacked against you to the point where you feel pressured into saying yes, not that it is actually impossible to say no.

For example, some of the animators *did* reject GW's deal, and instead closed their patreons. That doesn't mean they weren't strong-armed, it just means it didn't work.

Stop defending the indefensible. You were caught red-handed, so own up to it and do better in the future.

 Geifer wrote:

I will say that it honestly boggles my mind that anyone would think of the miniatures specifically as an added incentive to the actual service or, even worse, as a last minute push to add value to the service. Miniatures are GW's core business. They've been doing limited edition and event miniatures forever. There is no way the miniature as long term subscription incentive was an afterthought at any stage of the process.

And yet that is exactly how GW has presented it - as a "free" (their words, not mine) incentive. They have carefully not presented W+ as a miniature subscription service with some bonus animations, it's been presented as a content subscription service with a "free" miniature thrown in if you subscribe for a year.

I tend to agree it was probably their plan to offer that incentive from the very beginning - and it's been very effective, every single person I've seen talking about subscribing has cited it as the reason for their decision (which is itself telling...). But they've made a clear choice not to present this as a miniature subscription service - not least because if they did that, they'd couldn't really structure it as 5 bucks a month where you only get your miniature if you don't cancel before the 12th month.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vovin wrote:
Stop defending the indefensible. You were caught red-handed, so own up to it and do better in the future.

Not responding to what someone said but instead just saying "no you're wrong! own up to it!" is not a very effective way to argue. If you want to contest the idea that "come work for us or lose your income stream" is strong-arming, or that it's a deal someone can't refuse, feel free to do that. But your attempt to say "you can't have it both ways" here is wrong because nobody's trying to have it both ways. The phrase "a deal you can't refuse" doesn't mean a deal that's actually impossible to refuse, it just means a deal that you have pressure to accept. In general, linguistic gotchas are a poor way to argue a point, but they're especially poor when they're also wrong.

If you can't support your accusation, to use your words, own up to it and do better in the future.

Well, it's not a miniature subscription service. It is however something they can leverage very easily on top of the bits they are experimenting with.

They want to branch out into animations, but they know those alone wouldn't hold up a subscription service. So they bundle in things that are easy enough for them to do to make the whole thing more desirable.

Its just something the were obviously always going to do.

It's not actually a bundle, though. That's the interesting bit. They've been very careful to structure it in a way that the miniature is a "free bonus" for subscribing for 12 months, not a core part of the service that you build entitlement to over time.

Everybody sees through that as far as it being obvious that the miniature is a core element of what they're pitching to you, but the clever bit is what people don't see through is that by doing it the way they have, GW has essentially converted people from thinking about W+ as a monthly subscription to thinking of it as a yearly subscription. People now go into the decision as "I'm going to stick with this for a year no matter what or else I'll lose the main reason for subscribing," not "I'll subscribe and see if I like it."

It's really a very clever marketing trick.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Not responding to what someone said but instead just saying "no you're wrong! own up to it!" is not a very effective way to argue. If you want to contest the idea that "come work for us or lose your income stream" is strong-arming, or that it's a deal someone can't refuse, feel free to do that. But your attempt to say "you can't have it both ways" here is wrong because nobody's trying to have it both ways. The phrase "a deal you can't refuse" doesn't mean a deal that's actually impossible to refuse, it just means a deal that you have pressure to accept. In general, linguistic gotchas are a poor way to argue a point, but they're especially poor when they're also wrong.

If you can't support your accusation, to use your words, own up to it and do better in the future.

Nah. I have confidence that my initial post stands for itself. I wouldn't be able to convince the drama queen faction anyway, but other forum-goer can have a chuckle. PS: no need to defend the 'can't refuse' phrase, nothing on my post hinges on this wording, I haven't even quoted it directly.

I don't have much hopes for the Loremasters tbh. GW's MO is usually very shallow in this sort of things..

Was surprised to see more this year's White Dwarf's! By this rate, they will have all but caught up with the mag. Maybe that's when they start releasing the backlog.

 Vovin wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Maybe even more interestingly...they only strong-armed the fan animators into working for them very recently, like only a couple months before the W+ release. W+ itself would have been in the planning stages for far longer than that. Was the original plan to make W+ fully in house, but then when they didn't have enough content themselves, did they decide at the 11th hour to rope in a bunch of fan animations by giving them a "deal" they couldn't refuse? Or was that always the plan? If it was always the plan, it's a pretty ballsy move to leave securing content to the last minute that way - what if the fan animators had simply said "screw you?" Then W+ would be even thinner than it already is.

So GW is stong-arming them Corleone-style but at the same time the animators are totally able to say "screw-you" and refuse the 'offer', which in turn leaves GW vulnerable?
Hate to say it, dude, but you suck at logic.

Oh, hey, the crunch culture excuse, but with IP strikes! Fun times.




Hm... pretty defensible, turns out.

I think he's trying to argue that it couldn't be the case that fan animators were both strong-armed into working for GW and that some or all could have nevertheless refused to be strong-armed, and I was therefore contradicting myself. In other words, the implication seems to be that because some but not all fan animators accepted the "deal", that is is evidence it wasn't strong-arming.

It doesn't seem like a very good gotcha to me, much less an actual attempt at a serious argument...but meh, it's the internet.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

I will say that it honestly boggles my mind that anyone would think of the miniatures specifically as an added incentive to the actual service or, even worse, as a last minute push to add value to the service. Miniatures are GW's core business. They've been doing limited edition and event miniatures forever. There is no way the miniature as long term subscription incentive was an afterthought at any stage of the process.

And yet that is exactly how GW has presented it - as a "free" (their words, not mine) incentive. They have carefully not presented W+ as a miniature subscription service with some bonus animations, it's been presented as a content subscription service with a "free" miniature thrown in if you subscribe for a year.

I tend to agree it was probably their plan to offer that incentive from the very beginning - and it's been very effective, every single person I've seen talking about subscribing has cited it as the reason for their decision (which is itself telling...). But they've made a clear choice not to present this as a miniature subscription service - not least because if they did that, they'd couldn't really structure it as 5 bucks a month where you only get your miniature if you don't cancel before the 12th month.

They would present it as free. Or "free", as you accurately say. But really, provided they want the service and incentives to be what they are, what choice do they have? Warhammer+ is not a miniature subscription service because you can subscribe for a time shorter than necessary (that is up to eleven months) to get a miniature. You're paying for everything except the miniature (and other promotional items like that voucher) regardless of the duration of your subscription, but are only eligible for the miniature after twelve months. You can't opt out of the model and pay less. You're not asked to pay extra for the miniature over your standard subscription rate. In addition, you get one of the two miniatures without additional cost but are only eligible to purchase the second one, so for that one there is a cost.

GW chose this approach, of course, but once we acknowledge that as the baseline from which the service has to be approached and made to work, how could they not market that one miniature as free?

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's not actually a bundle, though. That's the interesting bit. They've been very careful to structure it in a way that the miniature is a "free bonus" for subscribing for 12 months, not a core part of the service that you build entitlement to over time.

Everybody sees through that as far as it being obvious that the miniature is a core element of what they're pitching to you, but the clever bit is what people don't see through is that by doing it the way they have, GW has essentially converted people from thinking about W+ as a monthly subscription to thinking of it as a yearly subscription. People now go into the decision as "I'm going to stick with this for a year no matter what or else I'll lose the main reason for subscribing," not "I'll subscribe and see if I like it."

It's really a very clever marketing trick.

Yeah, it probably works effectively. How hard can it be to see through it, though? You get a shiny limited edition model if you stay subscribed for a year. You get a yearly subscription for less than twelve monthly subscriptions. They add the 40k and AoS apps as part of the service, which realistically aren't of use to the average player unless they are permanently subscribed to. GW pretty overtly tells us that they want subscribers to stay committed without interruption.

At least 40k app doesn't have huge value with subscribtion. 8e codexes nice but benefit keeps shrinking. Codexes don't need sub. The army builder and partial datasheets(lacking rules for special rules) and that's it.

The apps as they are now are BS anyway. But that's customer valuation, which has very little to do with GW's messaging.

The WH40k app is still shockingly poor. What is even more mind boggling is the completely broken state it was initially released in. And they charged money for it!

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
The WH40k app is still shockingly poor. What is even more mind boggling is the completely broken state it was initially released in. And they charged money for it!

Looks at Finecast

I dunno about you, but that sounds completely par the course for GW to me.