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No, it isn't, it's a trash meme made up by 4chan chuds who thought they were funny.
Horus was only the "father" of one Legion. Every other Traitor Legion didn't follow him because he was their gene-father.


That's not how CSM are presented. The NL hate Curze because he was just flat-out awful. Some Tsons saw hubris in Magnus's actions but most didn't. The DG love Mortarion because of Nurgle happy time. The Word Bearers worship Lorgar for enlightening them to the True Faith. The Iron Warriors don't really care. The World Eaters are too angry to care and now that they all serve Khorne they'll follow Angron regardless. The Emperor's Children just want to bask in Fulgrims beauty again because Slaanesh. Everyone hates Horus because he was a failure in their eyes, they didn't know the Gods' plan always for Horus to fail. Not a single Legion's goals are driven by "my gene-father didn't love me enough".


Bile made the clones because he saw the Primarchs as weak for falling to Chaos and thought that if they were uncorrupted by Daemons and Gods then the Traitors would have won the Heresy. Did you read the books?


The Crimson Slaughter are interesting because they're new. That's it. They haven't been seen before and their lore is a new story. The Chaos Legions have been doing the same things since time began because the timeline doesn't move in 40k. The Dragonspears are more interesting than their founding Chapter, the Salamanders because the Dragonspears are new and have no stories about them yet.


Who knows about the CSM, the general populace or the higher-ups with access to classified information? As for the events of Armageddon 1, the Inquisition tried to keep that under wraps because of the specific nature of who the enemy was. It wasn't some random mook Warband looking for supplies, it was Angron, Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters leading legions upon legions of Daemons. The Inquisition still mindwipes or purges as many people it can after an interaction with Daemons because of their insidious nature. Who cares if the Imperial forces beat a CSM Warband because as far as those forces know that's the only Warband they'll ever have to worry about.

Tycho wrote:

I hate the entire notion of "Nobody knows about Chaos!". Perhaps the Warp/Daemon side of things isn't well-known throughout the Imperium, but the idea that every time the Ruinous Powers show up in force (either via traitor human elements or CSMs) everyone goes "What are those?" is just laughable.

Again, it's not that nobody knows them. It's that they shouldn't be so ho-hum common place. As I said - post-Cadia Chaos is pretty much out of the bag Imperium wide. But the damage was done well before that.

Meh, that's everyone, again, depending on the author. Look at Tyranids: they used to be inscrutable, unknowable. Now it's just "The bugs are back again, get the swatters". Other Xenos suffer the same way. And loyalists. They used to be so rare that most Imperials would never lay eyes on them, legends. Now they're in every battle theater. Some authors handle the setting better, actually realizing how huge the entire galaxy is, and how bad communication and information sharing is for the greater Imperium. Others devalue it to B-grade comic book fare. The same happens to any setting with as much media as 40k.

Again, it comes back to the actual codexes and the rules and lore presented in them. For several editions gw hasn't been able to decide if CSM are a malevolent force striking from the distant past and the very Heart of Hell, or a bunch of cartoon villains that look like they sprung from the album cover of a bad thrash band from somebody's garage.

They wrote themselves into a rules corner with primaris, CSM were already struggling even before that as the gimp version of marines, but post-primaris, the power disparity is even more stark. The obviously thing to do was lean into the daemonic side of things, but for whatever reason they didn't do that and instead just made them bargain basement marines. CSM aren't far off stormtroopers now in terms of their general uselessness.

yukishiro1 wrote:
They wrote themselves into a rules corner with primaris, CSM were already struggling even before that as the gimp version of marines, but post-primaris, the power disparity is even more stark. The obviously thing to do was lean into the daemonic side of things, but for whatever reason they didn't do that and instead just made them bargain basement marines. CSM aren't far off stormtroopers now in terms of their general uselessness.

Personally, I think the obvious thing would be to lean away from Chaos Space Marines as the de facto Chaos faction and start including the rest of Chaos in the faction.

Bring out the Dark Mechanicus. Bring in traitor guard and chaos followers that are an actual functional army instead of psychotic cultists. Have CSM's acting as part of a larger Chaos force that includes daemons and mortal guard equivalent, beast mutants, dark mechanicus hell engines, etc.

As long as CSM's are 'just' spikey marines, they'll always be behind the curve since Space Marines will *always* be updated first and *always* receive the best ongoing support.

yukishiro1 wrote:
They wrote themselves into a rules corner with primaris, CSM were already struggling even before that as the gimp version of marines, but post-primaris, the power disparity is even more stark. The obviously thing to do was lean into the daemonic side of things, but for whatever reason they didn't do that and instead just made them bargain basement marines. CSM aren't far off stormtroopers now in terms of their general uselessness.

How is leaning into the "daemonic side" going to help CSM, as in the actual unit, when they don't have the DAEMON keyword? CSM need their veteran status compared to loyalists back. They shouldn't be less, or equal, to TACs. They should be better. And Chosen should be troops and better than a bunch of thin blooded muscle heads too. Same goes for the various Cult Marines (but only troops in their respective Legions). Millennia of experience and selling your soul should be worth more than a few extra organs.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I hate the entire notion of "Nobody knows about Chaos!". Perhaps the Warp/Daemon side of things isn't well-known throughout the Imperium, but the idea that every time the Ruinous Powers show up in force (either via traitor human elements or CSMs) everyone goes "What are those?" is just laughable.

Also, not knowing is not protection see quote of mine.


Just sadly GW forgot about that snippet....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
They wrote themselves into a rules corner with primaris, CSM were already struggling even before that as the gimp version of marines, but post-primaris, the power disparity is even more stark. The obviously thing to do was lean into the daemonic side of things, but for whatever reason they didn't do that and instead just made them bargain basement marines. CSM aren't far off stormtroopers now in terms of their general uselessness.

How is leaning into the "daemonic side" going to help CSM, as in the actual unit, when they don't have the DAEMON keyword? CSM need their veteran status compared to loyalists back. They shouldn't be less, or equal, to TACs. They should be better. And Chosen should be troops and better than a bunch of thin blooded muscle heads too. Same goes for the various Cult Marines (but only troops in their respective Legions). Millennia of experience and selling your soul should be worth more than a few extra organs.

As much as i agree with thise sentiment in regards to legionaires...
I don't think that will happen.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
They wrote themselves into a rules corner with primaris, CSM were already struggling even before that as the gimp version of marines, but post-primaris, the power disparity is even more stark. The obviously thing to do was lean into the daemonic side of things, but for whatever reason they didn't do that and instead just made them bargain basement marines. CSM aren't far off stormtroopers now in terms of their general uselessness.

How is leaning into the "daemonic side" going to help CSM, as in the actual unit, when they don't have the DAEMON keyword? CSM need their veteran status compared to loyalists back. They shouldn't be less, or equal, to TACs. They should be better. And Chosen should be troops and better than a bunch of thin blooded muscle heads too. Same goes for the various Cult Marines (but only troops in their respective Legions). Millennia of experience and selling your soul should be worth more than a few extra organs.

As much as i agree with thise sentiment in regards to legionaires...
I don't think that will happen.

Why not? It would be so easy. Plague Marines are already more durable than primaris in Death Guard armies. Add a second wound to Berzerkers and they'll be equally as durable as primaris, but more deadly in melee without any other changes. The same will be true for the other Cult Marines in their respective specialties. Give Chosen 2W and troops status for the Undivided Legions, so they have obsec, and keep all of their current stats and options, and they'll be just as good at range as standard intercessors and in melee as Assault Intercessors. It wouldn't be difficult. Add functional Legion traits, and we're getting somewhere.

I think you're making the mistake of assuming commonality of knowledge in universe is the same as that OUT of universe. aalmost all the stories we see are from the point of view of fairly highly placed people in the IoM your average clerk on necromundia likely knows NOTHING of chaos, but yes, a space marine captain does.

Is this a question in game? or lore?

If it's in-game, they are not scary because they are basically marine -. Heck, the name sake unit is basically usually passed over for the cheaper cultists. Rules wiise too CSM is waaaay outdated and their global rule DtFE is too restricted (only for Imperium.... thankfully ALOT of Imperium players out there) or just straight up unused (Daemon Summoning... like seriously GW... this is what you come up with for CSM rule? This should be a strat). I don't agree with making chosen into troops because that would make CSM (the unit) even more undesirable than it is now. Chosen should be glutted with the blessing of the chaos gods, mutations to augment their prowess, skilled on warfare matters, dedicated to their patron (Gods or Warlord).... instead we got CSM +1 attack, a belt clip to put that chainsword, and a strap on their bolter... like really GW? Basically they really need to go back to the drawing board and stop using Gav Thorpe;s tripe codex from 4th as basis.

As for In lore, well... if we read the Chaos books they are actually portrayed as fearsome, deadly, and powerful.... if you read the Imperium ones... they are bumbling fools only to be dispatched by loyalists. Heck even Word Bearers are badass in their books instead of the jobber they are in every other books (including Chaos ones).

Just my 2 cents.

TinyLegions wrote:
My theory is that Chaos in WFB was the space marine equivalent to WFB in that it was a personal favorite to someone up top. Therefore, GW pushed that out more, and made sure that it got its proper due. On top of that it tended to be a dual role between WFB and 40K somewhat. At one point they shared Daemons officially.(I know full well that unofficially that was always the case)

I suspect part of it was that Chaos was arguably the most original faction in WFB, the others were mostly pretty direct lifts from other fantasy settings were as Chaos was a bit more of a melting pot of designs and ideas. I think GW were also very keen on the Skaven and the Chaos Dwarfs back in the day because they also introduced a bit more originality.

I do also think the way GW defines the setting outside of the models themselves has shifted a lot, especially with 40K. Back in the day I think you could argue that in the 80's to at least the mid 90's the most important medium for that wasnt novels or detailed writting it was art, Chaos generally I think owes a lot of its style to the likes of Ian Miller, that kind of "Punk Bosch" style illustration. That really suited chaos being more of an unknown mystical threat rather than something that needed to be defined by character or some kind of direct plot.

I would say as well that despite GW's attempts to make 40K more dynamic really the basic setting was always one of grining grimness, a setting of slow decline of knowledge and a grand uncaring universe not one were there was a very immediate threat of destruction. More of a Frank Herbert setting rather than a Tolkien one as in WFB.

narrative_forger wrote:
Is this a question in game? or lore?

If it's in-game, they are not scary because they are basically marine -. Heck, the name sake unit is basically usually passed over for the cheaper cultists. Rules wiise too CSM is waaaay outdated and their global rule DtFE is too restricted (only for Imperium.... thankfully ALOT of Imperium players out there) or just straight up unused (Daemon Summoning... like seriously GW... this is what you come up with for CSM rule? This should be a strat). I don't agree with making chosen into troops because that would make CSM (the unit) even more undesirable than it is now. Chosen should be glutted with the blessing of the chaos gods, mutations to augment their prowess, skilled on warfare matters, dedicated to their patron (Gods or Warlord).... instead we got CSM +1 attack, a belt clip to put that chainsword, and a strap on their bolter... like really GW? Basically they really need to go back to the drawing board and stop using Gav Thorpe;s tripe codex from 4th as basis.

As for In lore, well... if we read the Chaos books they are actually portrayed as fearsome, deadly, and powerful.... if you read the Imperium ones... they are bumbling fools only to be dispatched by loyalists. Heck even Word Bearers are badass in their books instead of the jobber they are in every other books (including Chaos ones).

Just my 2 cents.

Right. Chosen should stay in the Elites slot, be "glutted with the blessing of the Chaos Gods", and have mutations. I don't know what ever Possessed me to think otherwise. Seriously, we already have a unit for that. Chosen are Veteran Heretic Astartes, and should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions, just like Cult Marines are troop choices for their respective Legions. It would give us something to truly compete with intercessors. 2W CSM would be our TAC equivalent. They're the recently converted, either because they're Renegades or more newly created Heretic Astartes. I don't see why loyalists should have, what is it now? Five troops choices? While we're stuck with two.

You don't need five troops choices if your two don't suck...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Right. Chosen should stay in the Elites slot, be "glutted with the blessing of the Chaos Gods", and have mutations. I don't know what ever Possessed me to think otherwise. Seriously, we already have a unit for that. Chosen are Veteran Heretic Astartes, and should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions, just like Cult Marines are troop choices for their respective Legions. It would give us something to truly compete with intercessors. 2W CSM would be our TAC equivalent. They're the recently converted, either because they're Renegades or more newly created Heretic Astartes. I don't see why loyalists should have, what is it now? Five troops choices? While we're stuck with two.

Couldn't agree more.

Chosen should be the veterans of the Long War. There should be a tangible difference between a individual who has been alive and fighting for 10,000 years plus, and a relatively newly minted, 41st millennium marine.

We don't see that at all currently.

I'm confused by the individuals talking about Chaos 'not having the numbers' to be a threat too. Where are we getting that idea? The Heresy split the forces of the Imperium roughly in half (note the legions that were loyal, and those that were not). Remember too that they were kicking around in massive expeditionary fleets at the time, filled with non Astartes military elements. The Mechanicum, also split in two - at least half going to Horus.

Now add the size of the Imperium, and the fact that travel is risky across much of it. The fact that the Imperium is fighting nigh constant internal and external wars across several fronts, and add a potentially limitless number of Daemons...

I see no numbers problem on the spikey side here. Not where common sense is applied above fan service (which is the fundamental issue - CSM tend to be designed to lose because there is an inherent bias in the writing, almost certainly due to the fiscal one on the shelves).

That's why they don't appear scary. Poor writing, and a lack of investment/focus from GW. They have a golden calf faction in 40K, and I don't believe that's the case in AoS.

I don't really have an issue with Space Marines - though they are not my thing. I do wonder how much of their popularity is self perpetuated, and whether the community - and game - wouldn't be far richer for all if that focus was spread around some though.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Right. Chosen should stay in the Elites slot, be "glutted with the blessing of the Chaos Gods", and have mutations. I don't know what ever Possessed me to think otherwise. Seriously, we already have a unit for that. Chosen are Veteran Heretic Astartes, and should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions, just like Cult Marines are troop choices for their respective Legions. It would give us something to truly compete with intercessors. 2W CSM would be our TAC equivalent. They're the recently converted, either because they're Renegades or more newly created Heretic Astartes. I don't see why loyalists should have, what is it now? Five troops choices? While we're stuck with two.

Whoa calm down...... Let's go over this. If i think of mutated.... the one i'm thinking is me growing an eye on my forehead. Or tentacles growing from my back. Or i got scaly skins, or Acid Blood. If i think POSSESSED... i got a daemon inhibiting my body... and i transform into that daemon. As par per lore. Didn't i also say that the current chosen is unsatisfying since it only a CSM +1 attack and a belt clip for chainsword and strap for their bolter? Totally agree with the state of Chosen being sad. But that doesn't mean i agree with downgrading chosen to Troops Status making CSM even more undesirable. And what's wrong with only 2 troops choice besides diversity? Chosen should be special.... not grunts level.

narrative_forger wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Right. Chosen should stay in the Elites slot, be "glutted with the blessing of the Chaos Gods", and have mutations. I don't know what ever Possessed me to think otherwise. Seriously, we already have a unit for that. Chosen are Veteran Heretic Astartes, and should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions, just like Cult Marines are troop choices for their respective Legions. It would give us something to truly compete with intercessors. 2W CSM would be our TAC equivalent. They're the recently converted, either because they're Renegades or more newly created Heretic Astartes. I don't see why loyalists should have, what is it now? Five troops choices? While we're stuck with two.

Whoa calm down...... Let's go over this. If i think of mutated.... the one i'm thinking is me growing an eye on my forehead. Or tentacles growing from my back. Or i got scaly skins, or Acid Blood. If i think POSSESSED... i got a daemon inhibiting my body... and i transform into that daemon. As par per lore. Didn't i also say that the current chosen is unsatisfying since it only a CSM +1 attack and a belt clip for chainsword and strap for their bolter? Totally agree with the state of Chosen being sad. But that doesn't mean i agree with downgrading chosen to Troops Status making CSM even more undesirable. And what's wrong with only 2 troops choice besides diversity? Chosen should be special.... not grunts level.

I think when people say "make chosen troops" what they're actually saying is "get rid of chosen and make the basic CSM have the level of options chosen have"

 Jidmah wrote:
You don't need five troops choices if your two don't suck...

Well I'm just shooting for three. We already have a preview of what will happen to Cultists from the Death Guard codex: no faction traits or obsec, just cheap fodder. How would you make basic CSM "not suck"? Keep in mind your stuck with the options in the new kit: it's either bolters or chainswords. We already know the rules for both. How many rules do you have to stack on them to make them work? Especially if Cultists lose obsec and aren't a viable option anymore outside of cheap screens and filling slots?

@StrayIight: 100% agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

narrative_forger wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Right. Chosen should stay in the Elites slot, be "glutted with the blessing of the Chaos Gods", and have mutations. I don't know what ever Possessed me to think otherwise. Seriously, we already have a unit for that. Chosen are Veteran Heretic Astartes, and should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions, just like Cult Marines are troop choices for their respective Legions. It would give us something to truly compete with intercessors. 2W CSM would be our TAC equivalent. They're the recently converted, either because they're Renegades or more newly created Heretic Astartes. I don't see why loyalists should have, what is it now? Five troops choices? While we're stuck with two.

Whoa calm down...... Let's go over this. If i think of mutated.... the one i'm thinking is me growing an eye on my forehead. Or tentacles growing from my back. Or i got scaly skins, or Acid Blood. If i think POSSESSED... i got a daemon inhibiting my body... and i transform into that daemon. As par per lore. Didn't i also say that the current chosen is unsatisfying since it only a CSM +1 attack and a belt clip for chainsword and strap for their bolter? Totally agree with the state of Chosen being sad. But that doesn't mean i agree with downgrading chosen to Troops Status making CSM even more undesirable. And what's wrong with only 2 troops choice besides diversity? Chosen should be special.... not grunts level.

So, Possessed, just without the Daemon inside them? That's what that sounds like to me.

The point of making Chosen "grunt level" is to make CSM "grunts" better than loyalist "grunts", like they were in previous editions. 10 millennia of experience and taking a Mark should have that effect. Our "grunts" should be able to take on the lesser loyalist elites. Not terminators, but definitely Vanguard Veterans, as the average Legionaire has way more experience than those guys.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You don't need five troops choices if your two don't suck...

Well I'm just shooting for three. We already have a preview of what will happen to Cultists from the Death Guard codex: no faction traits or obsec, just cheap fodder. How would you make basic CSM "not suck"? Keep in mind your stuck with the options in the new kit: it's either bolters or chainswords. We already know the rules for both. How many rules do you have to stack on them to make them work? Especially if Cultists lose obsec and aren't a viable option anymore outside of cheap screens and filling slots?

Bring back marks, add a stratagem or two, give the icons rules that don't suck, improved support characters that aren't just for hitting even harder in combat you never reach, meaningful legion traits, a doctrine equivalent which the current codex is missing...

I like the idea of 2w Chosen troops with a veteran hability that you can pick like combat drugs.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You don't need five troops choices if your two don't suck...

Well I'm just shooting for three. We already have a preview of what will happen to Cultists from the Death Guard codex: no faction traits or obsec, just cheap fodder. How would you make basic CSM "not suck"? Keep in mind your stuck with the options in the new kit: it's either bolters or chainswords. We already know the rules for both. How many rules do you have to stack on them to make them work? Especially if Cultists lose obsec and aren't a viable option anymore outside of cheap screens and filling slots?

Bring back marks, add a stratagem or two, give the icons rules that don't suck, improved support characters that aren't just for hitting even harder in combat you never reach, meaningful legion traits, a doctrine equivalent which the current codex is missing...

All of which would also help Chosen. Just like they help your T5 -1 to all damage boys. Why shouldn't the Undivided Legions have an equivalent to Cult Marines as troops? You're just leaving us with spikey TACs and cheap fodder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I like the idea of 2w Chosen troops with a veteran hability that you can pick like combat drugs.

Me too. Bring back Veteran Abilities.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
All of which would also help Chosen. Just like they help your T5 -1 to all damage boys. Why shouldn't the Undivided Legions have an equivalent to Cult Marines as troops? You're just leaving us with spikey TACs and cheap fodder.

I think you are expecting way too much from chosen. They are literally the same as CSM except they have an extra attack and a lot of wargear options that are not in the kit... uh-oh.
Worst case you'll see chosen end up like bloodbrides or trueborn, where you pay some points to amp up basic CSM.

Whether you fix regular CSM or invalidate them by putting a better datasheet in the same slot isn't that different. And yes, for legions where a signature unit makes sense (Night Lords come to mind), there should be the option to do that.

One rule is missing for CSM to be tasty different from SM (while using the same stats and equipment).
Skavens in Warhammer Battle had it and it worked nicely and in accordance with fluff.

"Life if cheap". Basically CSM would be able to shoot to any combating enemy units. If by 50% chance You hit your unit then so be it. For the glory of Chaos Gods!

Send the horde of cultists or mutants (or CSM squads that You don't trust) toward enemy and then shoot them all togehter! Muahahaha.
Tell me that wouldn't be climatic. : )

 Jidmah wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
All of which would also help Chosen. Just like they help your T5 -1 to all damage boys. Why shouldn't the Undivided Legions have an equivalent to Cult Marines as troops? You're just leaving us with spikey TACs and cheap fodder.

I think you are expecting way too much from chosen. They are literally the same as CSM except they have an extra attack and a lot of wargear options that are not in the kit... uh-oh.
Worst case you'll see chosen end up like bloodbrides or trueborn, where you pay some points to amp up basic CSM.

Whether you fix regular CSM or invalidate them by putting a better datasheet in the same slot isn't that different. And yes, for legions where a signature unit makes sense (Night Lords come to mind), there should be the option to do that.

I just expect them to be better than basic CSM with 2W. That's all. And I share those fears about Chosen going the way of Trueborn. That's why I'm hoping we get an actual kit for them.

 Xyxel wrote:
One rule is missing for CSM to be tasty different from SM (while using the same stats and equipment).
Skavens in Warhammer Battle had it and it worked nicely and in accordance with fluff.

"Life if cheap". Basically CSM would be able to shoot to any combating enemy units. If by 50% chance You hit your unit then so be it. For the glory of Chaos Gods!

Send the horde of cultists or mutants (or CSM squads that You don't trust) toward enemy and then shoot them all togehter! Muahahaha.
Tell me that wouldn't be climatic. : )

DG have that exact rule as a stratagem for the Terminus Est list. It’s called “callous disregard”.

GW should go ahead and remove the CP cost of bringing "relics"
Let us take FW vehicles without the unneeded tax.

Then let the legions keep their identity even if we run out of CP
Then remove the reliance of the codex and VotlW+EC, that gak is boring as feth.

Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless. Might as well just take Daemon troops because the legion traits suck anyway and GW has no ability to write good ones. +1 LD and rapid fire weapons become assault is trash for Black Legion for example compared to what loyalists get.

Orthon wrote:
Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless. Might as well just take Daemon troops because the legion traits suck anyway and GW has no ability to write good ones. +1 LD and rapid fire weapons become assault is trash for Black Legion for example compared to what loyalists get.

why be so pessimistic about legion traits? every other one in the new codexes has received a buff, i fully expect our new ones to be better.
And its a good thing if cultists end up never taken, were CSM, not evil Astra militarum

 Jidmah wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
All of which would also help Chosen. Just like they help your T5 -1 to all damage boys. Why shouldn't the Undivided Legions have an equivalent to Cult Marines as troops? You're just leaving us with spikey TACs and cheap fodder.

I think you are expecting way too much from chosen. They are literally the same as CSM except they have an extra attack and a lot of wargear options that are not in the kit... uh-oh.
Worst case you'll see chosen end up like bloodbrides or trueborn, where you pay some points to amp up basic CSM.

Whether you fix regular CSM or invalidate them by putting a better datasheet in the same slot isn't that different. And yes, for legions where a signature unit makes sense (Night Lords come to mind), there should be the option to do that.

Except that is not true, Chosen are the next in line for a "promotion" As are terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Orthon wrote:
Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless. Might as well just take Daemon troops because the legion traits suck anyway and GW has no ability to write good ones. +1 LD and rapid fire weapons become assault is trash for Black Legion for example compared to what loyalists get.

why be so pessimistic about legion traits? every other one in the new codexes has received a buff, i fully expect our new ones to be better.
And its a good thing if cultists end up never taken, were CSM, not evil Astra militarum

Except thats also not true for Iron warriors and Alpha legion.
But then again the legion trait abominations that we got now are only half the issue since we can't even represent the rather diffrent forces the legions encompass technically either .... Also considering GW still insists on the 4th edition dex catastrophy which has made it baseline worse every new edition nothing in that regards will happen either.
So tell me, is there a reason to be actually optimistic?

Orthon wrote:
Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless.

It's a damn shame how points and equipment are carved in stone and can never ever be changed, nor can the rules possibly give new capabilities or a new role to a unit that is currently not being used in its intended manner.

VladimirHerzog wrote:GW should go ahead and remove the CP cost of bringing "relics"
Let us take FW vehicles without the unneeded tax.

Then let the legions keep their identity even if we run out of CP
Then remove the reliance of the codex and VotlW+EC, that gak is boring as feth.

Agreed. Numbers 2 and 3 are likely. Vets will probably stick around, but go to 2CP like for Death Guard. Cacophony will probably be gone. Number 1 is "iffy" though. Gw's rules writers don't seem up on their own lore.

Orthon wrote:Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless. Might as well just take Daemon troops because the legion traits suck anyway and GW has no ability to write good ones. +1 LD and rapid fire weapons become assault is trash for Black Legion for example compared to what loyalists get.

They did for Death Guard. If they do for us it's all the more reason we need something else in the troops slot than TACs with spikes.

 Da Boss wrote:
I don't find that aspect of the background enjoyable at all, for me the setting was a place to invent and create, not to catalogue. To each their own.

My interaction on the background forum and here gradually convince me that I'm not really a fan of 40K, just my idea of it that I constructed with limited information when I was younger.

It's sad but it seems to be the case.

I feel you. I came to pretty similar realisation a while a go myself. Though the tone of the setting has definitely changed. The seeds for the things I dislike were always there, but they've grown to take over the whole thing. Ultimately I have realised that the things I like about 40K are not the things a lot of other people like about it. Like for example I've came to the conclusion that primarchs were a mistake. They were mildly interesting when they were distant myths, but even that wasn't really needed. And of course now everything is warped around that inane superhero soap opera. But people love that. Mentally I have kinda checked out of the current 40k fandom.

But it is also somewhat freeing. I no don't care about the official fluff that much any more. I just take the pieces I like and make my own headcanon. I still love the models and play the game occasionally.