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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Why should all of those be CSM troops? I mean, Loyalist marine troop list is overcrowded for sure but all are "basic troopers" with different equipement options.

If you enter into veterans, guys with relics, etc... you are entering in Elite and other stuff territory.

The problem is that chaos marines lack a proper space marine unit to represent that because chosen are lackluster and can't compete with the sheer amount of marines the loyalist have from veterans to ultra veterans to primaris veterans etc...

CSM just have Chosen, Terminators, Havocs and Raptors as normal, not mutated not troops chaos marines.

You appear to not be aware of the history of CSM. What I wrote is basically the Chaos 3.5 CSM, and it was a single unit entry.

Playing Devil's advocate there is a reason that approuch was abandoned. Too many customiation options can be a tricky thing to balance. And IIRC CSM 3.5 had some balance issues with some of it's builds, also options that aren't nesscarily modeled can be hard to keep track of.

not that I disagree with the idea of gifstsof chaos. I fully expect at the very least gifts of chaos to be purchasable upgrades for our HQs in the next codex.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Why should all of those be CSM troops? I mean, Loyalist marine troop list is overcrowded for sure but all are "basic troopers" with different equipement options.

If you enter into veterans, guys with relics, etc... you are entering in Elite and other stuff territory.

The problem is that chaos marines lack a proper space marine unit to represent that because chosen are lackluster and can't compete with the sheer amount of marines the loyalist have from veterans to ultra veterans to primaris veterans etc...

CSM just have Chosen, Terminators, Havocs and Raptors as normal, not mutated not troops chaos marines.

You appear to not be aware of the history of CSM. What I wrote is basically the Chaos 3.5 CSM, and it was a single unit entry.

I'm aware of it. But I'm also aware that those times have been left behind in favour of "Primaris Captain in Gravis Armor with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle" as an actual unit entry and name. So I personally believe is better to talk about possibilities inside the current GW desing paradigm and ethos.


GW has shown with Drukhari that having "unit upgrades" that cost +X points per model are possible, so that makes possible to have Marks having passive effects on top of granting access to some extra rules like stratagems, relics, prayers, psychic powers, etc... a possibility.

^Fine, follow the current lame GW datasheet paradigm, but keep all those options Troops. Players should be able to choose between CSM "rabble" and god-worshipping veterans for their core choices.

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Why should all of those be CSM troops? I mean, Loyalist marine troop list is overcrowded for sure but all are "basic troopers" with different equipement options.

If you enter into veterans, guys with relics, etc... you are entering in Elite and other stuff territory.

The problem is that chaos marines lack a proper space marine unit to represent that because chosen are lackluster and can't compete with the sheer amount of marines the loyalist have from veterans to ultra veterans to primaris veterans etc...

CSM just have Chosen, Terminators, Havocs and Raptors as normal, not mutated not troops chaos marines.

You appear to not be aware of the history of CSM. What I wrote is basically the Chaos 3.5 CSM, and it was a single unit entry.

Playing Devil's advocate there is a reason that approuch was abandoned. Too many customiation options can be a tricky thing to balance. And IIRC CSM 3.5 had some balance issues with some of it's builds, also options that aren't nesscarily modeled can be hard to keep track of.

not that I disagree with the idea of gifstsof chaos. I fully expect at the very least gifts of chaos to be purchasable upgrades for our HQs in the next codex.

Veteran Abilities and Marks on basic CSM infantry wasn't what was difficult to balance, those had inbuilt rules to balance them (if you took a Mark you could only have one Veteran Ability, and every Legion couldn't have every Mark). The thing that was hard to balance was that characters could have Marks, Veteran Abilities, and multiple Daemonic Gifts, plus special weapons, and the rules that allowed some Legions (*cough * Iron Warriors * cough *), to get extra units no one else could have by giving up units they didn't want in the first place. Veteran Abilities and Marks on basic CSM units were not a problem, except for loyalists who couldn't stand that we could have better Marines than them.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Why should all of those be CSM troops? I mean, Loyalist marine troop list is overcrowded for sure but all are "basic troopers" with different equipement options.

If you enter into veterans, guys with relics, etc... you are entering in Elite and other stuff territory.

The problem is that chaos marines lack a proper space marine unit to represent that because chosen are lackluster and can't compete with the sheer amount of marines the loyalist have from veterans to ultra veterans to primaris veterans etc...

CSM just have Chosen, Terminators, Havocs and Raptors as normal, not mutated not troops chaos marines.

You appear to not be aware of the history of CSM. What I wrote is basically the Chaos 3.5 CSM, and it was a single unit entry.

Playing Devil's advocate there is a reason that approuch was abandoned. Too many customiation options can be a tricky thing to balance. And IIRC CSM 3.5 had some balance issues with some of it's builds, also options that aren't nesscarily modeled can be hard to keep track of.

not that I disagree with the idea of gifstsof chaos. I fully expect at the very least gifts of chaos to be purchasable upgrades for our HQs in the next codex.

Veteran Abilities and Marks on basic CSM infantry wasn't what was difficult to balance, those had inbuilt rules to balance them (if you took a Mark you could only have one Veteran Ability, and every Legion couldn't have every Mark). The thing that was hard to balance was that characters could have Marks, Veteran Abilities, and multiple Daemonic Gifts, plus special weapons, and the rules that allowed some Legions (*cough * Iron Warriors * cough *), to get extra units no one else could have by giving up units they didn't want in the first place. Veteran Abilities and Marks on basic CSM units were not a problem, except for loyalists who couldn't stand that we could have better Marines than them.

speaking as someone who plays Loyalist Marines IMHO CSM and Loyalists should be on paper about equal, (for the record they aren't and haven't been for a long time)

Loyalist Marines should have benifits that show their greater cohesion etc. CSMs should absolutely have a power increase as well that reflects their ties to chaos etc. I mean one way to do this would be "more powerful, but random effects" where chaos is actually more powerful but can't nesscarily plan around "this phase I'll have this". But I know people HATE randomness in their game

No. Why would veterans of hundreds to thousands of years be random? Things like the Chaos Boon Table can go burn.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No. Why would veterans of hundreds to thousands of years be random? Things like the Chaos Boon Table can go burn.

because CHAOS GIFTS are random. Sometimes you get grand cosmic power, othertimes your testical turns into a tenticle.

you keep insisting ALL CSMs are veterns, except that we know for the fact they're still making CSMs, we have no idea what percentage of CSMs are heresy veterns, but I suspect they are a minority

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No. Why would veterans of hundreds to thousands of years be random? Things like the Chaos Boon Table can go burn.

because CHAOS GIFTS are random. Sometimes you get grand cosmic power, othertimes your testical turns into a tenticle.

you keep insisting ALL CSMs are veterns, except that we know for the fact they're still making CSMs, we have no idea what percentage of CSMs are heresy veterns, but I suspect they are a minority

No, all CSM are not veterans. But some are. And we should be able to represent that through things like Veteran Abilities and Marks that cost points. That was the balancing factor. CSM could be better than loyalists, but it cost you. And all Chaos isn't random. We know what Khorne does, we know what Nurgle does. That silly concept is from the 4th edition bad joke.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No. Why would veterans of hundreds to thousands of years be random? Things like the Chaos Boon Table can go burn.

because CHAOS GIFTS are random. Sometimes you get grand cosmic power, othertimes your testical turns into a tenticle.

you keep insisting ALL CSMs are veterns, except that we know for the fact they're still making CSMs, we have no idea what percentage of CSMs are heresy veterns, but I suspect they are a minority

No, all CSM are not veterans. But some are. And we should be able to represent that through things like Veteran Abilities and Marks that cost points. That was the balancing factor. CSM could be better than loyalists, but it cost you. And all Chaos isn't random. We know what Khorne does, we know what Nurgle does. That silly concept is from the 4th edition bad joke.

Older than that. RoC: Slaves to Darkness kicked off with d1000 chart for chaos attributes.
GW loves their lol!random for chaos and always have, no matter the stupid effects it has on the game.

Voss wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No. Why would veterans of hundreds to thousands of years be random? Things like the Chaos Boon Table can go burn.

because CHAOS GIFTS are random. Sometimes you get grand cosmic power, othertimes your testical turns into a tenticle.

you keep insisting ALL CSMs are veterns, except that we know for the fact they're still making CSMs, we have no idea what percentage of CSMs are heresy veterns, but I suspect they are a minority

No, all CSM are not veterans. But some are. And we should be able to represent that through things like Veteran Abilities and Marks that cost points. That was the balancing factor. CSM could be better than loyalists, but it cost you. And all Chaos isn't random. We know what Khorne does, we know what Nurgle does. That silly concept is from the 4th edition bad joke.

Older than that. RoC: Slaves to Darkness kicked off with d1000 chart for chaos attributes.
GW loves their lol!random for chaos and always have, no matter the stupid effects it has on the game.

it's almost like chaos is chaotic

BrianDavion wrote:


Playing Devil's advocate there is a reason that approuch was abandoned.

Sure. One of the stated reasons was that they felt the legion rules were too restrictive. So the Lash Prince codex was all about the Black Legion and renegades giving players freedom to forge their own narratives. What GW failed to grasp was what the players wanted was a set of legion rules with which to conform their armies. "This is my Emperor's Children army. You can tell it's EC because every unit has the mark of slaanesh. It includes noise marines and some daemonettes. The dreadnought and predator have sonic weaponry. It includes a keeper of secrets." This army couldn't be replicated in the 4th edition book. And CSM players had been asking for legion rules ever since.

Voss wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No. Why would veterans of hundreds to thousands of years be random? Things like the Chaos Boon Table can go burn.

because CHAOS GIFTS are random. Sometimes you get grand cosmic power, othertimes your testical turns into a tenticle.

you keep insisting ALL CSMs are veterns, except that we know for the fact they're still making CSMs, we have no idea what percentage of CSMs are heresy veterns, but I suspect they are a minority

No, all CSM are not veterans. But some are. And we should be able to represent that through things like Veteran Abilities and Marks that cost points. That was the balancing factor. CSM could be better than loyalists, but it cost you. And all Chaos isn't random. We know what Khorne does, we know what Nurgle does. That silly concept is from the 4th edition bad joke.

Older than that. RoC: Slaves to Darkness kicked off with d1000 chart for chaos attributes.
GW loves their lol!random for chaos and always have, no matter the stupid effects it has on the game.

Sadly I think it’s when two different themes are trying to be used at play, if you read a lot of the media on chaos. Apart from the word chaos for the faction they are not very chaotic at all.
The different gods are almost set in there ways to a fault, with some fairly stringent rules about how they function within the setting.
Even if they could be considered chaotic in the 4 gods at odds with each other, it’s more in the same way any other faction could be. With just more divine forces at play with the demons and the gods themselves.

Also the lol random I don’t think has ever been fun mechanics for people to play against, must be someone that likes them. But I have never met them.

Chaos =/= Random

This has come up before.

This conversation is demonstrating exactly why chaos sucks. Notice how y’all can’t even settle on chaos being hardened vets of the long war or new guys to the fray? Well neither could GW and they picked neither. Have fun not being able to represent either...

For the record we should have access to variable degree of veterans, like chosen represented by mutations and what not, veterans of the long war (this can include ANY marine that is a hardened veteran to include those that turned coat or were made during the 10k years following the heresy, as long as they have seen a significant amount of fighting, and elite units, along with gal vorbak style possessed...

Also arguing that balancing a unit with 80 options is difficult thus splitting the profile of major groupings of those profiles disregards the fact that they couldn’t balance those profiles as some loyalist veterans are clearly not up to scratch with some of the others and have not been for some time.

I have to ask why should a Chaos veteran that rejects Chaos be better than a loyalist veteran that has no problem using relics and stuffs of the chapters?


I mean. I get the "selling you soul for more power" IS a fair TRADE and for the bad guys to be more power full than the good guys makes for better narrative. Thats what Chaos did in Fantasy.
But asking to be better without paying that price sound like eating your cake and having It too. Chaos can become veterans but loyalist cannot?
Why should a night Lord chosen that completely rejects Chaos be better than a vanguard veteran that probably as fought in just as many conflicts and benefits from a cohesive training regime and other stuff.

Is a Chaos Vet that Chaos really a Chaos Vet? Wouldn't they just be a Marine?

 Galas wrote:
I have to ask why should a Chaos veteran that rejects Chaos be better than a loyalist veteran that has no problem using relics and stuffs of the chapters?


I mean. I get the "selling you soul for more power" IS a fair TRADE and for the bad guys to be more power full than the good guys makes for better narrative. Thats what Chaos did in Fantasy.
But asking to be better without paying that price sound like eating your cake and having It too. Chaos can become veterans but loyalist cannot?
Why should a night Lord chosen that completely rejects Chaos be better than a vanguard veteran that probably as fought in just as many conflicts and benefits from a cohesive training regime and other stuff.

It's because any loyalist with as much combat experience as a Veteran of the Long War is a named character.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I have to ask why should a Chaos veteran that rejects Chaos be better than a loyalist veteran that has no problem using relics and stuffs of the chapters?


I mean. I get the "selling you soul for more power" IS a fair TRADE and for the bad guys to be more power full than the good guys makes for better narrative. Thats what Chaos did in Fantasy.
But asking to be better without paying that price sound like eating your cake and having It too. Chaos can become veterans but loyalist cannot?
Why should a night Lord chosen that completely rejects Chaos be better than a vanguard veteran that probably as fought in just as many conflicts and benefits from a cohesive training regime and other stuff.

It's because any loyalist with as much combat experience as a Veteran of the Long War is a named character.

I don't think that's true. Most named characters have that much experience, but especially in the books you regularly see regular marines or sergeants that have outlived almost the entire company, but haven't climbed in rank. It happens so much that it almost feels like a trope when you see yet another 400 year old marine grumbling in the corner how the younger battle brothers don't know gak.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I have to ask why should a Chaos veteran that rejects Chaos be better than a loyalist veteran that has no problem using relics and stuffs of the chapters?


I mean. I get the "selling you soul for more power" IS a fair TRADE and for the bad guys to be more power full than the good guys makes for better narrative. Thats what Chaos did in Fantasy.
But asking to be better without paying that price sound like eating your cake and having It too. Chaos can become veterans but loyalist cannot?
Why should a night Lord chosen that completely rejects Chaos be better than a vanguard veteran that probably as fought in just as many conflicts and benefits from a cohesive training regime and other stuff.

It's because any loyalist with as much combat experience as a Veteran of the Long War is a named character.

So Chaos named characters are just better than loyalist?
I really believe people IS overstimating how much experience a Chaos marine has compared with a loyalist , even heresy era survivors. Outside Gods nearly inmortal champions like Typhus, Ahriman, Kharn, Abaddon, etc... Is just as probable for a HH CSM to have fought for a total of 200 years, spend and bunch of time floating on the warp, a couple millenia in a Chaos realm eating from slaneesh garden dick trees and then spit back into reality to just have jumped straight into the present.


The thing with horus heresy IS like the war of the ancients with WoW night elves.
A RACE of inmortal beings were any named character you want to give some "umpf" to them, you say they were there 10.000 years ago, because you have no other relevant event for them to participate in that time lap of ten thousand years, and if you take just the novels, something that should be rare (then thousand old night elves) becomes a trope.

Why should be a CSM from the year 37000 really be inferior to a HH one ? At some point adding more years doesnt add anything to your skills.

 Galas wrote:
I have to ask why should a Chaos veteran that rejects Chaos be better than a loyalist veteran that has no problem using relics and stuffs of the chapters?


I mean. I get the "selling you soul for more power" IS a fair TRADE and for the bad guys to be more power full than the good guys makes for better narrative. Thats what Chaos did in Fantasy.
But asking to be better without paying that price sound like eating your cake and having It too. Chaos can become veterans but loyalist cannot?
Why should a night Lord chosen that completely rejects Chaos be better than a vanguard veteran that probably as fought in just as many conflicts and benefits from a cohesive training regime and other stuff.

Part of what makes a loyalist a loyalist is the unit cohesion and loyalty to their brothers. This grants some advantages in the shape of ATSKNF, but also takes time and effort and is restrictive in the sense that any individual marine is part of a strict organization. Chaos marines on the other hand are instead able to break with rigid organization/equipment and tactics, and focus more strictly on martial acumen or specific skills that aid their particular campaign style. The freedom to break from the rigid codex structure of the loyalists means that some CSM can flounder in it's absence, while others are able to adapt and excel.

The player pays in points and certain wargear (high tech) choices, but instead gets a greater array of ways to customize. The actual marine pays by losing the selfless loyalty of his brothers, but can gain in individual choice, skill and brutality.

I mean , Im all for customization for Chaos marines (thats what Chaos IS for me. Not lolrandom but freedom).
And if you are better but Pay for It in points thats fine, IS how everything works in this Game, or should.

I just dispute this persuasive notions were loyalist marines are somewat on general individually inferior, when a loyalist champion has no problem going toe to toe with a CSM elite outside the most Chaos blessed ones because thats the only thing a loyalist cannot mimic that a Chaos one has.

 Galas wrote:
I mean , Im all for customization for Chaos marines (thats what Chaos IS for me. Not lolrandom but freedom).
And if you are better but Pay for It in points thats fine, IS how everything works in this Game, or should.

I just dispute this persuasive notions were loyalist marines are somewat on general individually inferior, when a loyalist champion has no problem going toe to toe with a CSM elite outside the most Chaos blessed ones because thats the only thing a loyalist cannot mimic that a Chaos one has.

It's also worth noting that loyalist do pretty much nothing but train and fight, while the whole lure of chaos is doing stuff other than that.

I see the floor for CSM being lower while the ceiling being higher compared to SM.

You have freedom at the cost of structured, constant training and outside support from a whole galaxy spanning empire while at the same time you theoretically can gain personal power that exceeds what even the likes of Dante could do.

And thats how It works by rules. I mean, compare all deathguard Marine units to their loyalist equivalent and even if by points they arent as competitive, by stats they are much superior.
Even a plague marine , the "troops", with a couple of meele weapons sweep the floor with marines.

people keep insisting that veterns of the long war must have 10k years experiance but thats not how it works, the warp being as weird as it is, there are proably CSMs whom are, termporaly YOUNGER then some of the actual space Marines out there. Also we know that the chaos marines continue to recruit, given the death guard are actually BIGGER then they where at the end of the Heresy, it stands to reason that a majority of the death guard are post-heresy recruits.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Chaos =/= Random

This has come up before.

I take it the shadows of the 7th edition (40k) and 8th edition (WHFB) Chaos Daemons codices still loom large over the hobby.

 Galas wrote:
And thats how It works by rules. I mean, compare all deathguard Marine units to their loyalist equivalent and even if by points they arent as competitive, by stats they are much superior.
Even a plague marine , the "troops", with a couple of meele weapons sweep the floor with marines.

I wouldn't apply the same logic to Death Guard as Gadzilla is applying to other legions. Many plague marines in the Death Guard are not veterans of the long war, as the DG still has a fully functional homeworld where they keep recruiting and making new plague marines. At the same time they are still using the same tactics they were using before the heresy, which is just throwing bodies at problems and making any efforts to reduce casualties on their side. Your average Death Guard plague marine should not be more experienced than your average loyalist and mostly relies on mass-produced weapons. Instead, most of their power stems from the ruinous ritual that turns them into plague marines. That's why it's perfectly fine for them being rank and file troops.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And thats how It works by rules. I mean, compare all deathguard Marine units to their loyalist equivalent and even if by points they arent as competitive, by stats they are much superior.
Even a plague marine , the "troops", with a couple of meele weapons sweep the floor with marines.

I wouldn't apply the same logic to Death Guard as Gadzilla is applying to other legions. Many plague marines in the Death Guard are not veterans of the long war, as the DG still has a fully functional homeworld where they keep recruiting and making new plague marines. At the same time they are still using the same tactics they were using before the heresy, which is just throwing bodies at problems and making any efforts to reduce casualties on their side. Your average Death Guard plague marine should not be more experienced than your average loyalist and mostly relies on mass-produced weapons. Instead, most of their power stems from the ruinous ritual that turns them into plague marines. That's why it's perfectly fine for them being rank and file troops.

It’s fairly nebulous what you can gain over time as well, a fantastic swords fighter could learn and be skilful to beat anyone from a young age. Experience has benefits, but it’s hard to give that mechanical in a game like 40k.
300 years after the first 50 could be little real advantage, but in knowledge of enemy’s and tactics used and the changes over time would probably be more valuable than most stats can really show in the game.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And thats how It works by rules. I mean, compare all deathguard Marine units to their loyalist equivalent and even if by points they arent as competitive, by stats they are much superior.
Even a plague marine , the "troops", with a couple of meele weapons sweep the floor with marines.

I wouldn't apply the same logic to Death Guard as Gadzilla is applying to other legions. Many plague marines in the Death Guard are not veterans of the long war, as the DG still has a fully functional homeworld where they keep recruiting and making new plague marines. At the same time they are still using the same tactics they were using before the heresy, which is just throwing bodies at problems and making any efforts to reduce casualties on their side. Your average Death Guard plague marine should not be more experienced than your average loyalist and mostly relies on mass-produced weapons. Instead, most of their power stems from the ruinous ritual that turns them into plague marines. That's why it's perfectly fine for them being rank and file troops.

I used death guard as an example because thats a full legión of Chaos blessed marines. And by virtue of that they are appropiately superior to loyalist.
Just to point out how, by rules and stats, GW also agrees that Chaos boons IS the actual advantage Chaos marines have to put them over loyalist on a way loyalist cannot replicate, not even with primaris.
Equipement? Veterancy? Those arent advantages Chaos marines have over loyalists. A Chaos marine veteran that rejects Chaos IS no different in power from a loyalist veteran

 Galas wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And thats how It works by rules. I mean, compare all deathguard Marine units to their loyalist equivalent and even if by points they arent as competitive, by stats they are much superior.
Even a plague marine , the "troops", with a couple of meele weapons sweep the floor with marines.

I wouldn't apply the same logic to Death Guard as Gadzilla is applying to other legions. Many plague marines in the Death Guard are not veterans of the long war, as the DG still has a fully functional homeworld where they keep recruiting and making new plague marines. At the same time they are still using the same tactics they were using before the heresy, which is just throwing bodies at problems and making any efforts to reduce casualties on their side. Your average Death Guard plague marine should not be more experienced than your average loyalist and mostly relies on mass-produced weapons. Instead, most of their power stems from the ruinous ritual that turns them into plague marines. That's why it's perfectly fine for them being rank and file troops.

I used death guard as an example because thats a full legión of Chaos blessed marines. And by virtue of that they are appropiately superior to loyalist.
Just to point out how, by rules and stats, GW also agrees that Chaos boons IS the actual advantage Chaos marines have to put them over loyalist on a way loyalist cannot replicate, not even with primaris.
Equipement? Veterancy? Those arent advantages Chaos marines have over loyalists. A Chaos marine veteran that rejects Chaos IS no different in power from a loyalist veteran

There's a Mile between survived 1 Engagement and surviving whole wars though so no i think people can resoundingly disagree with that.