Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
You have to account for the short hands necessary in the genre a little, I'm not going to give it too much of a hard time over that because it's a super hero action movie, not an adaptation of a John Le Carre book.
Plus I don't think it's impossible that it was a callback to the James Bond film she was watching in her trailer and how that's how those movies always go.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/11 14:51:39
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
creeping-deth87 wrote: I was really, really stoked for this and it just wasn't that good. HBMC nailed most of my issues with this film. It's a frustrating movie because there are some genuinely good ideas at work here, but it's buried under a lot of nonsense.
Spoiler:
Things I enjoyed: I really liked Yelena's character. She was easily my favourite part of the whole movie. She had good chemistry with Nat, they were believable sisters. All of the discussion in the cabin where we learn what an impact the pretend family had on Yelena in Ohio was great stuff. There was a strong chosen family theme going there that I thought was great.
Things I did not like: what a wasted opportunity to show some espionage and spy craft. There's some insanely over the top set pieces strung together that really don't do much of anything for the story they were telling. Perfect example is the breakout of Red Guardian. Sneaking the ear piece into the prison was great, totally thought we were gonna get like an Ocean's 11 style prison escape but no, it quickly spins into this insane, overly long action sequence where they kill like a thousand people to get him out. It didn't need to be that long. The way they got him out wasn't relevant to the rest of film.
I thought it was super weird that Drakov (sp?) was telling Nat everything about his super secret plans toward the end there. The whole time he's talking I couldn't help but think why the hell is he saying all of this to her? It would have been really cool if she manipulated him into revealing what was going on, but no. She doesn't have to. He just spills the beans.
The '2 weeks later' at the end papered over a lot, holy crap. Ross has like a hundred guys with him on the way to Nat's location. How on earth did she get away?
I'm of 2 minds when it comes to Taskmaster's portrayal in this film. On the one hand I think it's a cop out that Nat gets to be absolved of killing a little girl, but on the other I think it's really interesting that Nat inadvertently created a monster in the process. I guess the jury is out on this one for me.
Overall, it gets a 6/10 for me.
Spoiler:
She DOES manipulate him into telling her everything. In exactly the same way we have seen her do it in other movies. In the same way she goads Loki. In the same way she goads the general. She plays a part and lets people do all the hard work themselves. Act weak, say the right couple words at the right time, and people can't help but start to spill the beans.
Yeah I'm gonna agree with Lance here, it was pretty obvious that this was a classic "Natasha interrogation" Feign weakness, and let the "ohh so smart man" monologue at her. I mean christ she even ends it with "thank you for your cooperation"
You guys don't think it's done way too easily? The guy ran the red room that trains Nat how to do everything she does, you'd think it would take wayyyy more subterfuge and effort to get him to explain everything. It just doesn't feel earned. How the hell did this guy get to his position if he's so easily duped?
Spoiler:
There are several pieces to this.
1) We have seen Nat do this before. As I pointed out she even did it to Loki. A God of Mischief with thousands of years of experience manipulating people.
2) Drehkov is over confidant.
2.1) He literally thinks there is nothing Nat can do.
2.2) He literally thinks of women not as people but as resources to be mined and used. He thanks Nat for giving him his greatest weapon by blowing up his own daughter. Because shes just an object to be used.
2.3) His pheromones have so far been a perfect fail safe. Nat even goes through the entire show of attempting to use the gun and knife and looking shocked and scared. It's every step of the way where she is building up his own over confidence. She makes him feel stronger and more powerful, and why shouldn't he?, so that when she questions him and calls him a looser and his high is showing some fundamental cracks in the foundation that he starts to justify his high. You see how angry he gets? SHE got him there. Angry people make dumb decisions.
You can think it didn't feel earned or whatever. All I am saying is we have seen her do this before. And the movie shows us with some interspersed flash backs of the plan being made that every single thing she does and says from the moment she meets him face to face is part of the plan to get him to reveal the information she needs. Everything. From pretending to be Melinda, to getting revealed she isn't, to drawing the gun, the knife, the getting punched, the looking shocked at how many Widows there are, it's all a farce to get Drehkov where she wants him.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I was really, really stoked for this and it just wasn't that good. HBMC nailed most of my issues with this film. It's a frustrating movie because there are some genuinely good ideas at work here, but it's buried under a lot of nonsense.
Spoiler:
Things I enjoyed: I really liked Yelena's character. She was easily my favourite part of the whole movie. She had good chemistry with Nat, they were believable sisters. All of the discussion in the cabin where we learn what an impact the pretend family had on Yelena in Ohio was great stuff. There was a strong chosen family theme going there that I thought was great.
Things I did not like: what a wasted opportunity to show some espionage and spy craft. There's some insanely over the top set pieces strung together that really don't do much of anything for the story they were telling. Perfect example is the breakout of Red Guardian. Sneaking the ear piece into the prison was great, totally thought we were gonna get like an Ocean's 11 style prison escape but no, it quickly spins into this insane, overly long action sequence where they kill like a thousand people to get him out. It didn't need to be that long. The way they got him out wasn't relevant to the rest of film.
I thought it was super weird that Drakov (sp?) was telling Nat everything about his super secret plans toward the end there. The whole time he's talking I couldn't help but think why the hell is he saying all of this to her? It would have been really cool if she manipulated him into revealing what was going on, but no. She doesn't have to. He just spills the beans.
The '2 weeks later' at the end papered over a lot, holy crap. Ross has like a hundred guys with him on the way to Nat's location. How on earth did she get away?
I'm of 2 minds when it comes to Taskmaster's portrayal in this film. On the one hand I think it's a cop out that Nat gets to be absolved of killing a little girl, but on the other I think it's really interesting that Nat inadvertently created a monster in the process. I guess the jury is out on this one for me.
Overall, it gets a 6/10 for me.
Spoiler:
She DOES manipulate him into telling her everything. In exactly the same way we have seen her do it in other movies. In the same way she goads Loki. In the same way she goads the general. She plays a part and lets people do all the hard work themselves. Act weak, say the right couple words at the right time, and people can't help but start to spill the beans.
Yeah I'm gonna agree with Lance here, it was pretty obvious that this was a classic "Natasha interrogation" Feign weakness, and let the "ohh so smart man" monologue at her. I mean christ she even ends it with "thank you for your cooperation"
You guys don't think it's done way too easily? The guy ran the red room that trains Nat how to do everything she does, you'd think it would take wayyyy more subterfuge and effort to get him to explain everything. It just doesn't feel earned. How the hell did this guy get to his position if he's so easily duped?
Spoiler:
There are several pieces to this.
1) We have seen Nat do this before. As I pointed out she even did it to Loki. A God of Mischief with thousands of years of experience manipulating people.
2) Drehkov is over confidant.
2.1) He literally thinks there is nothing Nat can do.
2.2) He literally thinks of women not as people but as resources to be mined and used. He thanks Nat for giving him his greatest weapon by blowing up his own daughter. Because shes just an object to be used.
2.3) His pheromones have so far been a perfect fail safe. Nat even goes through the entire show of attempting to use the gun and knife and looking shocked and scared. It's every step of the way where she is building up his own over confidence. She makes him feel stronger and more powerful, and why shouldn't he?, so that when she questions him and calls him a looser and his high is showing some fundamental cracks in the foundation that he starts to justify his high. You see how angry he gets? SHE got him there. Angry people make dumb decisions.
You can think it didn't feel earned or whatever. All I am saying is we have seen her do this before. And the movie shows us with some interspersed flash backs of the plan being made that every single thing she does and says from the moment she meets him face to face is part of the plan to get him to reveal the information she needs. Everything. From pretending to be Melinda, to getting revealed she isn't, to drawing the gun, the knife, the getting punched, the looking shocked at how many Widows there are, it's all a farce to get Drehkov where she wants him.
Even simpler than that. Drehkov had become just another stupid old man who's only goal was keeping power. He's a stand-in for every terrible boss who should have retired and doesn't understand the changing times... or personal space.
As others have said, it's a shame what they did with Task Master. And I think it could have worked if they did just a little bit more. Just one more twist.
Spoiler:
Maybe Natasha uses the cure on Task Master, only to find out she's not brainwashed. Maybe she's just that cold a person.
Or maybe Natasha frees her and Task Master turns on her father. But, then a twist, she attempts to take over the red room. Natasha then has to destroy the red room before Task Master can use it.
In either case, we end the movie with a heartless killer as a roaming mercenary in future movies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/11 18:53:42
Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today?
I agree that this film is definitely 5/6 years late. Good action scene, good acting, risible story (more risible than usual) and a few cringe-inducing moments. It's mediocre at best in my opinion (note that I consider almost all MCU movies to be bad... So it's better than most of them).
More than anything, what bothers me is the scale of those supposed baddies. Aliens invaded New York a few years ago, and we should perceive those guys as bad, or dangerous? I feel like they come out as pathetic (a problem I noticed also in Mysterio in Far from Home).
You can't do the bigenace anymore Marvel, at least not until you being big guns in a movie like Wanda or Strange (that's why I think that both Loki and Multiverse of Madness will work better: they can have real cosmic big baddies).
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
That’s where I think they’ll take the immediate aftermath.
Spoiler:
After all, off goes Taskmaster and a bunch of Black Widows. And there are other Black Widows to be freed from the mind control.
Sure, they now have free will to choose their own path, but like Natasha? They’ve had forced hysterectomies. They’re trained killers with no family to speak of. They don’t know ordinary civilian life (though those in deep cover may have more, it being necessary to go undercover).
That’s a helluva a resource of ultimately naive killers who’ve only known a life of being told what to do and when to do it. Ain’t nobody just gonna let them be. Someone is going to recruit them. And that recruitment will come with a purpose in mind of course.
We’ve not seen the last of Task Master. This was just their intro movie.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Rather, they’re the trainer of goons etc. A villain, but not often an active thorn in anyone’s side.
Did not know that. My only exposure was the few spider man games he's been in. I always thought he was just a cool mercenary type.
But with that in mind. A red room twist would have fit perfectly with his comic character.
TM in the comics is actually originally a shield agent who was supposed to go undercover with Hydra/Aim/whatever. His mimicry power in the comics eats up valuable brain space. He looses personal memories as he picks up more and more fighting style information. His traditional status in the comics is that his wife (also a shield agent), that he cannot remember, is his handler. While he can no longer remember that his undercover assignment is actually an undercover assignment. As far as he knows he actually is the Task Master and he really is a mercenary mostly hired to train the goons the Marvel universe plows through.
He's a tragic character in that regard. He doesn't really know who he is. He got started doing what he is doing as one of the good guys. But he's lost in it now.
At one point the Avengers set up a training camp of sorts for younger heroes and they hired Task Master to train them. He isn't REALLY a bad guy. He's just a hired gun at this point who doesn't have a past.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Interesting side note: The 2 characters in the comics Taskmaster either can't or won't imitate is Deadpool and Moon Knight.
DP's fighting style is too chaotic and improvisational. There is no way to predict his next move.
Moon Knight on the other hand, well Task Master considers his fighting style to be suicidal. Why does Moon Knight wear all white? It's so his enemies can see him coming.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/11 21:35:44
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I was really, really stoked for this and it just wasn't that good. HBMC nailed most of my issues with this film. It's a frustrating movie because there are some genuinely good ideas at work here, but it's buried under a lot of nonsense.
Spoiler:
Things I enjoyed: I really liked Yelena's character. She was easily my favourite part of the whole movie. She had good chemistry with Nat, they were believable sisters. All of the discussion in the cabin where we learn what an impact the pretend family had on Yelena in Ohio was great stuff. There was a strong chosen family theme going there that I thought was great.
Things I did not like: what a wasted opportunity to show some espionage and spy craft. There's some insanely over the top set pieces strung together that really don't do much of anything for the story they were telling. Perfect example is the breakout of Red Guardian. Sneaking the ear piece into the prison was great, totally thought we were gonna get like an Ocean's 11 style prison escape but no, it quickly spins into this insane, overly long action sequence where they kill like a thousand people to get him out. It didn't need to be that long. The way they got him out wasn't relevant to the rest of film.
I thought it was super weird that Drakov (sp?) was telling Nat everything about his super secret plans toward the end there. The whole time he's talking I couldn't help but think why the hell is he saying all of this to her? It would have been really cool if she manipulated him into revealing what was going on, but no. She doesn't have to. He just spills the beans.
The '2 weeks later' at the end papered over a lot, holy crap. Ross has like a hundred guys with him on the way to Nat's location. How on earth did she get away?
I'm of 2 minds when it comes to Taskmaster's portrayal in this film. On the one hand I think it's a cop out that Nat gets to be absolved of killing a little girl, but on the other I think it's really interesting that Nat inadvertently created a monster in the process. I guess the jury is out on this one for me.
Overall, it gets a 6/10 for me.
Spoiler:
She DOES manipulate him into telling her everything. In exactly the same way we have seen her do it in other movies. In the same way she goads Loki. In the same way she goads the general. She plays a part and lets people do all the hard work themselves. Act weak, say the right couple words at the right time, and people can't help but start to spill the beans.
Yeah I'm gonna agree with Lance here, it was pretty obvious that this was a classic "Natasha interrogation" Feign weakness, and let the "ohh so smart man" monologue at her. I mean christ she even ends it with "thank you for your cooperation"
You guys don't think it's done way too easily? The guy ran the red room that trains Nat how to do everything she does, you'd think it would take wayyyy more subterfuge and effort to get him to explain everything. It just doesn't feel earned. How the hell did this guy get to his position if he's so easily duped?
Spoiler:
There are several pieces to this.
1) We have seen Nat do this before. As I pointed out she even did it to Loki. A God of Mischief with thousands of years of experience manipulating people.
2) Drehkov is over confidant.
2.1) He literally thinks there is nothing Nat can do.
2.2) He literally thinks of women not as people but as resources to be mined and used. He thanks Nat for giving him his greatest weapon by blowing up his own daughter. Because shes just an object to be used.
2.3) His pheromones have so far been a perfect fail safe. Nat even goes through the entire show of attempting to use the gun and knife and looking shocked and scared. It's every step of the way where she is building up his own over confidence. She makes him feel stronger and more powerful, and why shouldn't he?, so that when she questions him and calls him a looser and his high is showing some fundamental cracks in the foundation that he starts to justify his high. You see how angry he gets? SHE got him there. Angry people make dumb decisions.
You can think it didn't feel earned or whatever. All I am saying is we have seen her do this before. And the movie shows us with some interspersed flash backs of the plan being made that every single thing she does and says from the moment she meets him face to face is part of the plan to get him to reveal the information she needs. Everything. From pretending to be Melinda, to getting revealed she isn't, to drawing the gun, the knife, the getting punched, the looking shocked at how many Widows there are, it's all a farce to get Drehkov where she wants him.
Even simpler than that. Drehkov had become just another stupid old man who's only goal was keeping power. He's a stand-in for every terrible boss who should have retired and doesn't understand the changing times... or personal space.
As others have said, it's a shame what they did with Task Master. And I think it could have worked if they did just a little bit more. Just one more twist.
Spoiler:
Maybe Natasha uses the cure on Task Master, only to find out she's not brainwashed. Maybe she's just that cold a person.
Or maybe Natasha frees her and Task Master turns on her father. But, then a twist, she attempts to take over the red room. Natasha then has to destroy the red room before Task Master can use it.
In either case, we end the movie with a heartless killer as a roaming mercenary in future movies.
Also, and it suprises me no ones picked up on this, the man is also a mysigionist. iI mean that term tends to be used a bit over much but I really got that vibe from him I mean "I built this from the one natural resource there's too much of.. young girls" etc so him under estimating natasha makes sense.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Last I knew Taskmaster is/was head of security for a country/city of villains, what I’m guessing is the comic version of the place Power Broker was in charge of without going to look up the location names, but that was a little while ago. He also merced it up in Spider-Men II, where Miles met him for the first time and Parker considered him a nigh unstoppable force who would kill them both.
AduroT wrote: Aaaaaaaahhhhhhh crud. It was… Rather mediocre in my opinion. Not like bad, but not terribly good. And I hate what they did with Taskmaster. And now people are gonna be all You only dislike it because it’s the girl led movie and that’s going to poison all discussion of it.
I mean, you could just... not bring it up and focus on the problem areas of the actual film? Not much point in poisoning the path to the well if the poisoning the well is all you're going to talk about.
We could. In fact, we did just that when discussing the remade Ghostbusters and The Last Jedi. Notice how well that didn't work out.
Well, preemptively making the conversation about that rather than the film is a sure fire way of going down the same path.
It's a railroad and we're going down it whether we want to or not.
For me, I thought the movie was... okay. A serviceable action film. But hardly the sendoff Natasha - the FIRST strong female character of the MCU - deserved. If that somehow makes me a racist sexist pig, for wanting the Black Widow to have gotten a better movie... so be it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/12 00:59:47
If anything, this film whitewashed all of Natasha's previous actions at the same time as taking away any agency she had during her pre-SHIELD years. Nothing she did was her fault, and the one thing that she felt guilty of she was absolved of by the end.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/12 01:20:13
If anything, this film whitewashed all of Natasha's previous actions at the same time as taking away any agency she had during her pre-SHIELD years. Nothing she did was her fault, and the one thing that she felt guilty of she was absolved of by the end.
how did they take away her agency? She wasn't being mind controlled by the red room THAT only came after she left. the only thing Nat had was psychalogical conditioning, and we KNEW that
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
H.B.M.C. wrote: Rare to come across a video that so perfectly encapsulates everything that's wrong with a film (and I'm not even a fan of the 'Pitch Meeting' videos):
I saw it.... and my first thought was to wonder why they could not have done this same movie 5-6 years ago? As many said, it came out too late.
Now, obviously the genre overlay to add capes into was was a Bond/Bourne flick. On that level it seemed okay. After all, super spies always have family issues that they are trying to replace, so it makes sense the MCU Super-spy would too. No one makes Genre flicks better than Disney.
My only disappointment was that the Red Guardian was an idiot and a doofus.
Overall, this was a solid and competent movie. In today's day and age, saying that a solid and competent movie was made is a HUGE compliment. So many are not solid or competent..... yes I am looking at you WW84!
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing
Solid 6/10 marvel movie. I think Natasha deserved better, but much like everyone else, my real thumbs down was with Taskmaster. Even punk-ass Batroc got better service.
Spoiler:
I don't care about they changing the character to female, nor changing the backstory to match, but it really sucks that they basically threw the character away. You know damn well Taskmaster will never appear again, ever, and it's a shame - could have been a really cool recurring character.
Easy E wrote: I saw it.... and my first thought was to wonder why they could not have done this same movie 5-6 years ago? As many said, it came out too late.
Scarlett Johansson was signed back when Marvel Studios was technically a little independent studio before they were bought by Disney. They couldn't really afford her rate as lead actress so her original contract was a multi-movie deal at her rate to play a supporting role. I'm sure there were probably opportunities to renegotiate that, but most of that was done in the Ike Perlmutter days, so.... I mean, they had to wedge Capt Marvel in between the two halves of Thanos after all. Pretty clear the first opportunity to change things was so late that it made more sense to finish up the original contract before giving her a fresh deal.
I find a lot of this really sad from some reviews I'm hearing. I like scarlett Johansson and gal gadot or at least their confidence, charisma, looks, ability and just how they seem to interact with people. If ever I'd watch a female lead superhero movie it'd have to be someone with their general good traits if not them.
From some reviews this movie just sounds like wasted potential from a great female lead.
I haven't seen it so maybe I might actually watch it but I sorta spoiler'ed myself and seen reviews so it's hard to go in without a certain outlook now based on those reviews somewhat.
I think now that Disney is getting its hands dirty in the MCU, we can expect to see an over abundance of simple jokes designed for young kids. The sister Elaina seemed to always stretching for a cheap joke, which to me felt repetitive. The Red Guardian who was portrayed as being of dull wit and slightly bumbling idiot was actually some comic relief to me; tho, I bet his portrayal might slightly offensive to some Russian audiences.
bat702 wrote: I think now that Disney is getting its hands dirty in the MCU, we can expect to see an over abundance of simple jokes designed for young kids. The sister Elaina seemed to always stretching for a cheap joke, which to me felt repetitive. The Red Guardian who was portrayed as being of dull wit and slightly bumbling idiot was actually some comic relief to me; tho, I bet his portrayal might slightly offensive to some Russian audiences.
I dunno, I never saw him as intended to be a RUSSIAN (in terms of comedic archtype) so much as "clueless old man so stuck in the 'glory days' of his past he's oblivious to what he's lost in his present" comedic archtype
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
chromedog wrote: They bought Marvel in 2009. Iron man came out in 2010. The first film in the "MCU" as you know it.
2008, actually, so they weren't really involved in that film.
chromedog wrote: That said, pretty much ALL of the marvel stuff is a cheap joke. Marginally better than the DC stuff.
Yeah... I don't think that holds true. If it did, then both of them would be great successes.
I think ultimately the MCU's trick is it tries to be semi-accurate to the comics (while identifying which parts of the stories didn't age well) and doesn't take itself too seriously. the MCU understands it's all about HAVING FUN
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 06:05:03
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I’d argue most Phase 1 stuff was relatively untouched by Disney. Everything phase 2 definitely under their auspices. Including of course Winter Soldier.
So the claim Disney is somehow kiddifying the MCU is outright incorrect.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’d argue most Phase 1 stuff was relatively untouched by Disney. Everything phase 2 definitely under their auspices. Including of course Winter Soldier.
So the claim Disney is somehow kiddifying the MCU is outright incorrect.
And it was never Disney holding Marvel Studios back at any point. That ignominious distinction rests with Marvel Proper, who held the purse strings.
Civil War was basically the straw that broke the camels back with that situation, and resulted in Feige being unleashed from the Marvel Proper handlers, allowing Marvel Studios to do as they wanted.
