Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?

By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?
Wait, so if Orks aren't that dangerous in melee anymore and they aren't even that good at shooting in comparison to other factions, what are they good at?

Dingdingding, we have a winner. Yeah, that's exactly the problem Semper has been talking about for many, many posts in this thread.

The thing orks are good at is bringing more wounds than anyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.

Sorry, but that's one of the worst metrics to determine whether someone is good at combat. By that metric both marines and eldar are vastly better melee armies and should get their shooting taken away to compensate.

Whether an army or a unit is good at something is not determined by their ability to hit.

I don't see how your interpretation of what I said makes any sense. Eldar and Marines have equal WS and BS. Orks have a clear emphasis on melee with their basic stats. And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.

So, weren't you just saying that WS is the only thing that matters? Now it's also number of attacks? Or let's get wild and we have to look at the whole picture and take all stats into consideration to find out who is good at combat? And let's go a step further and include rules and army synergy. Crazy talk, right?

An no, even in prior editions, marines and eldar always had similar or better melee stats than orks. Today even if you pick a random chapter with no real benefit for melee, a unit of intercessors tends to be just as deadly in combat as an equally costed units of boyz.

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoiler:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Yep..on planet bowling ball where those 5' movement boyz walked across the board without being gutted. Even with aggressive deployment and an epic advance move, boyz are not a turn 1 threat. Heck, even with Da Jump they aren't a threat anymore thanks to the nerfs to WAAAAGH energy and the nerf to Evil Sunz +1 to charge. So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz. Those boyz are now LD3 and have a 50% chance to lose even more boyz to morale, specifically 1 to failure and 2-3 to attrition.

Grey Hunters aren't a turn 1 threat either.

more so than Choppa boyz, they at least get a 24' range weapon to go along with their close combat abilities.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz.

3.3 damage or 63 points as opposed to 4.5 * 9 = 40.5 points. Even if they lose 3 to morale they're still on roughly the same points.

This isn't the huge gap you're making it out to be.

10 intercessors is 20 shots, 13.3 hits, 6.6 wounds and 3.3 dmg which is 1 dead Marine and 1 wounded Marine. Not 63pts of dmg. 3.3dmg would be 31.35pts or half what you thought it was. And those Orkz are either LD 3 or LD2 which means they most likely fail morale and than its 4.5 +1 + 1/6th so at a minimum you are talking 5.5 and likely going to 7.5 which means its 63-72pts of dead Orkz

Talk about arguing in bad faith...

Yeah, sure if we point anti light infantry weapons at light infantry it is going to be more efficient than pointing it at heavy infantry. Shocking!

Here, get this math and see how OP boyz are.
An exocrine fire on a unit of intercessors. 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5,33 wounds. 4.44 killed for 88,8 points. 33% chances of losing one more to morale for a total of 95 points.
Same exocrine fires on a unit of 20 boyz. 5.33 killed. 48 points. 66% chances to lose 3 more to morale for a total of 66 points.

95 against 66. And that's assuming the worst possble effects from morale (i.e. only this weapon shooting at them in the whole turn... yeah, sure).

You see? Your intercessors are clearly worse than those boyz and will be terribly crippled before they make contact with the enemy lines, whle the boyz will still be quite strong...

OR

We stop making silly math hammer points which have no actual tie to what really happens on the table, and are just the epitome of armchairing.
As I have just shown, with math hammer you can prove everything and its contrary.

 Jidmah wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?

By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?
Wait, so if Orks aren't that dangerous in melee anymore and they aren't even that good at shooting in comparison to other factions, what are they good at?

Dingdingding, we have a winner. Yeah, that's exactly the problem Semper has been talking about for many, many posts in this thread.

The thing orks are good at is bringing more wounds than anyone else.

Well I suppose I should be disappointed, but there are no games in my area so it doesn't really matter if my Orks get shelved. What a pity though, they were a hell lot of fun in 4th ed when I started them.

Orks are not in bad spot though, they're actually quite good at the moment. Players just need to adapt to the new codex and edition though.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well I suppose I should be disappointed, but there are no games in my area so it doesn't really matter if my Orks get shelved. What a pity though, they were a hell lot of fun in 4th ed when I started them.

Ah, no, you got me wrong. Just because orks aren't the best at anything, doesn't automatically mean that they are bad. They are essentially a jack of all trades, with above average shooting, average melee and high model/wound count.

An old mantra almost as old as orks is "chop the shooty and shoot the choppy" - orks cannot meet the power of a specialist at their specialty, but they have tools to exploit their weaknesses. That's why shooting is an absolutely essential and important part of orks and always has been.

Only when balance heavily disfavored this approach orks fell back to their one strength - bringing more wounds than their opponent could possibly kill. Essentially every time the green tide became a popular tournament archetype in the last decade, it meant that the ork codex was having massive problems because its shooting and melee was too weak.

Spoletta wrote:

Talk about arguing in bad faith...
Yeah, sure if we point anti light infantry weapons at light infantry it is going to be more efficient than pointing it at heavy infantry. Shocking!
Here, get this math and see how OP boyz are.
An exocrine fire on a unit of intercessors. 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5,33 wounds. 4.44 killed for 88,8 points. 33% chances of losing one more to morale for a total of 95 points.
Same exocrine fires on a unit of 20 boyz. 5.33 killed. 48 points. 66% chances to lose 3 more to morale for a total of 66 points.

95 against 66. And that's assuming the worst possble effects from morale (i.e. only this weapon shooting at them in the whole turn... yeah, sure).

You see? Your intercessors are clearly worse than those boyz and will be terribly crippled before they make contact with the enemy lines, whle the boyz will still be quite strong...

OR

We stop making silly math hammer points which have no actual tie to what really happens on the table, and are just the epitome of armchairing.
As I have just shown, with math hammer you can prove everything and its contrary.

bad faith ...or more accurately described as a common game scenario. And yes, Ork boyz are "light" infantry and Space marines are all now considered "heavy" because of their 2nd wound. And yes, when you target those infantry with a heavy weapon that is almost purpose built to killing Marines, its going to perform less well against other targets. Or do you think S7 -3AP 2Dmg is the ideal weapon to be targeting troops choices? Without a shadow of a doubt the most common weapon on the table is the humble bolter. Most Marines wield it or a variant of it, SOB use them, Imperial Guard use them (not as frequently), Chaos Marines wield them.

And I don't know about you, but when i'm playing against someone, I generally don't put my Expensive artillery into a troops choice, i prefer to use it against vehicles and elite infantry like Terminators and such.

Regardless, the point being made which you seem to have missed is that someone asked "what is scarier to get assaulted by, some orkz or some Marines" and a few people pointed out that Marines are scarier. Daed jumped in well after the fact to try and mathhammer it out to show that in a vacuum if you get all boyz into assault (you never do) they are scarier. I'm pointing out that in no game I have ever played has a unit of boyz ever gotten into assault unmolested unless they were Da Jumped and since that is heavily nerfed now, its not a real tactic, and those same boyz are M5 and are not a turn 1 threat anymore, as in they literally can't hurt the enemy turn 1 at all unless their opponent bum rushed forward to get chopped up. Where as their opposite number is 1 faster and 2 has a weapon capable of at least harassing fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well I suppose I should be disappointed, but there are no games in my area so it doesn't really matter if my Orks get shelved. What a pity though, they were a hell lot of fun in 4th ed when I started them.

Ah, no, you got me wrong. Just because orks aren't the best at anything, doesn't automatically mean that they are bad. They are essentially a jack of all trades, with above average shooting, average melee and high model/wound count.

An old mantra almost as old as orks is "chop the shooty and shoot the choppy" - orks cannot meet the power of a specialist at their specialty, but they have tools to exploit their weaknesses. That's why shooting is an absolutely essential and important part of orks and always has been.

Only when balance heavily disfavored this approach orks fell back to their one strength - bringing more wounds than their opponent could possibly kill. Essentially every time the green tide became a popular tournament archetype in the last decade, it meant that the ork codex was having massive problems because its shooting and melee was too weak.

Jidmah here is 100% correct. For about the 100th time, I am not saying Orkz are garbage tier or anything of the like, I am pointing out that a lot of our units are no longer that good, and a while a few others absolutely stepped up to become better (warbikes, koptas, buggies, squig cavalry) that does not change the fact that the arch type playstyle for orkz (Greentide) is effectively dead because of the new rules of this edition teamed with our new rules for our 9th edition codex. As a whole I think the ork codex is marginally stronger than before, but in tournament play...I'm unsure as of right now, I have a feeling we will drop a tier in the competitive scene but we will have to wait MONTHS before we can find out for sure because 1: You need at least 3-4 months of solid tournament results to see a trend and 2: GW isn't releasing the ork codex for general use for some reason

epronovost wrote:

Tyel wrote:

1.) Raiders are the best transport in the game - and 4-5 of them give any DE list some handy anti-tank. Trukks are... so-so as transports and bring essentially nothing else. (I mean if they do a new model, give it at least a twin big shoota. Preferably 2.)

Actually, I would say that trukks, now being improved by the new ramshackle rule making them tougher to light anti-tank firepower and relatively cheap and with a more mild degradation chart (Raiders lose ballistic skills which is very bothering to them), are almost great. If they had the option to take a rockit launcha, which are now d3 shots, on the cheap (let say for 5 pts) instead of its big shoota, Trukk spam filled with slugga boyz and others would be an interesting tactic. Trukks even had the option for rokkit laucha during 4th and 5th edition if I remember well alas, no bit no option.

The good thing about current trukk is that a squad of 10 Goff slugga boyz with a nob with a power klaw plus one trukk is cheaper than 10 tactical marines all the while capable of moping the floor with them if they get the charge (which shouldn't be all that hard). While probably not a top competitive tool. This is definitely not a bad setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.

Ironically, Tyranids are also another army many people believe is designed for close combat, but is actually better at shooting especially right now.

There's not much light sub-8str firepower left tho. Played a tourney and ramshackle was ever used only vs knights, ironically. They're running s7 D3 guns mostly. Other factions rely on s8+. Including other orks. So, this buff is taking place much less often than even I anticipated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the main reason is the abundance of -1 damage buffs now. So, what used to be good previously - D2 high rof weaponry has fallen from grace. Now you get a ton of s8 with not much less firepower and damage of 3+.

Now buggies are still ok with 5++ and -1 to hit



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You need at least 6 skrapjets and speed waagh to compete, I guess.

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Talk about arguing in bad faith...
Yeah, sure if we point anti light infantry weapons at light infantry it is going to be more efficient than pointing it at heavy infantry. Shocking!
Here, get this math and see how OP boyz are.
An exocrine fire on a unit of intercessors. 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5,33 wounds. 4.44 killed for 88,8 points. 33% chances of losing one more to morale for a total of 95 points.
Same exocrine fires on a unit of 20 boyz. 5.33 killed. 48 points. 66% chances to lose 3 more to morale for a total of 66 points.

95 against 66. And that's assuming the worst possble effects from morale (i.e. only this weapon shooting at them in the whole turn... yeah, sure).

You see? Your intercessors are clearly worse than those boyz and will be terribly crippled before they make contact with the enemy lines, whle the boyz will still be quite strong...

OR

We stop making silly math hammer points which have no actual tie to what really happens on the table, and are just the epitome of armchairing.
As I have just shown, with math hammer you can prove everything and its contrary.

bad faith ...or more accurately described as a common game scenario. And yes, Ork boyz are "light" infantry and Space marines are all now considered "heavy" because of their 2nd wound. And yes, when you target those infantry with a heavy weapon that is almost purpose built to killing Marines, its going to perform less well against other targets. Or do you think S7 -3AP 2Dmg is the ideal weapon to be targeting troops choices? Without a shadow of a doubt the most common weapon on the table is the humble bolter. Most Marines wield it or a variant of it, SOB use them, Imperial Guard use them (not as frequently), Chaos Marines wield them.

And I don't know about you, but when i'm playing against someone, I generally don't put my Expensive artillery into a troops choice, i prefer to use it against vehicles and elite infantry like Terminators and such.

Regardless, the point being made which you seem to have missed is that someone asked "what is scarier to get assaulted by, some orkz or some Marines" and a few people pointed out that Marines are scarier. Daed jumped in well after the fact to try and mathhammer it out to show that in a vacuum if you get all boyz into assault (you never do) they are scarier. I'm pointing out that in no game I have ever played has a unit of boyz ever gotten into assault unmolested unless they were Da Jumped and since that is heavily nerfed now, its not a real tactic, and those same boyz are M5 and are not a turn 1 threat anymore, as in they literally can't hurt the enemy turn 1 at all unless their opponent bum rushed forward to get chopped up. Where as their opposite number is 1 faster and 2 has a weapon capable of at least harassing fire.

I was referring to your calculation that bolters kill more points of boyz than marines.
I don't have a horse in that other race, the ork dex is still too young to really assess if it is good or not. It is really a weird one since it is the first codex which has only datasheet stats and no detachment or army rules. The first dex without an anti soup bonus.

I just found very unfair that part of math hammer you did show, and so attacked that.

That's fine but its not a bad faith argument, i'm pointing out the difference between the two against the weapon system most likely to be used against them.

Right now, it feels like Shootaboys should be 7 pts a model and Choppa Boys should be 8.

Like the codex should be tweaked to have "Slugga and Shoota" as the default for 7 pts and have an option for "Any model may exchange their Shoota for a Choppa for +1 pt per model".

I'd probably pull Nobs down to 15 pts a model, again armed with Shoota and Slugga by default, with "May exchange a Shoota for Choppa" for +1 pt, "Shoota for Big Choppa" for +5 pts, and "Shoota for Power Klaw" for +10 pts. (This is a bit more than the current weapons cost, but lines up with other models, makes math easier, and, with the reduction in the model's base cost, comes out just about the same. (21 vs 20, 26 vs 25).

Heck, you could add "Exchange Shoota for a Kustom Shoota", "Kombi-Skorcha", or "Kombi-Rokkit" for an appropriate cost as well, giving you a few more options in there as well.

Wakshaani wrote:
Right now, it feels like Shootaboys should be 7 pts a model and Choppa Boys should be 8.

Like the codex should be tweaked to have "Slugga and Shoota" as the default for 7 pts and have an option for "Any model may exchange their Shoota for a Choppa for +1 pt per model".

I'd probably pull Nobs down to 15 pts a model, again armed with Shoota and Slugga by default, with "May exchange a Shoota for Choppa" for +1 pt, "Shoota for Big Choppa" for +5 pts, and "Shoota for Power Klaw" for +10 pts. (This is a bit more than the current weapons cost, but lines up with other models, makes math easier, and, with the reduction in the model's base cost, comes out just about the same. (21 vs 20, 26 vs 25).

Heck, you could add "Exchange Shoota for a Kustom Shoota", "Kombi-Skorcha", or "Kombi-Rokkit" for an appropriate cost as well, giving you a few more options in there as well.

I believe that at 9 points, Choppa Boyz are still okay. A squad of 10 in a trukk comes off cheap enough and hits hard enough to hurts its favored target (T4 or less infantry with a 3+ or worst armor). At 8 they would actually be very good, but not broken. At that price having big mobs would probably be something we could see again. AT 7 points, shoota boyz would become more correctly price, but I would not see players using them much with a 8 point choppa boyz. I personaly would simply raise their range back to 24 inches like in 3rd edition and keep the dakka profile and make them 8 points. This way, especially in bad moon, you could see them use as some sort of sponge in objective holder.

With the amount of LOS blocking terrain on tables now, I really believe mathammer is partially irrelevant other than looking at efficiency for mostly one turn, 2 turns max.

Ignore LOS is going to be a problem for Ork boyz, but I do not see it as a problem at all the idea of getting boyz units into combat, I think people may have to adjust to slightly smaller mobs so they can utilise LOS cover as much as possible.

Once it's figured out how to get them into the enemy lines - they will be a problem.

After a couple games I can say that 8 pt would not be enough to justify taking boyz over grots. A fair price seems to be 7 for boyz, 4 for grots. As for shootas, going lower vs choppas is not a good idea but buffing a shoota is. Dakka 4/3 base or access to speedwagh bonuses is enough to make shootaboyz decent at 7-8 pt range.

I think Choppa Boyz are reasonable at 9 points - and would be downright crazy at 7. The issue they have is shared with a lot of Troops Units. I.E. Why take them when you can take Kommandos and Stormboyz for 1-2 more points, who will do more or less the same thing on the table a turn or 2 earlier? Obsec has some value - but its unclear its all that, hence the fact many armies keep troops to a minimum. Equally if Choppa Boyz were 7 points you would just be back to "these are great, take 180 of them, Kommandos/Storm Boyz are comparatively clearly overcosted."

Its a similar shout with Shoota Boyz (although I think a reduction down to 8 points there could be justified). I don't actually think they compare "that" badly with 11 point basic SoB. But there's a reason the list which won the Lone Star Open contained precisely 5 and no more. If you could take units of 5 Shoota Boyz I think there'd be more debate versus Grots if you see the unit in terms of pure tax in say a mainly speedwaaagh list.

Tyel wrote:
I think Choppa Boyz are reasonable at 9 points - and would be downright crazy at 7. The issue they have is shared with a lot of Troops Units. I.E. Why take them when you can take Kommandos and Stormboyz for 1-2 more points, who will do more or less the same thing on the table a turn or 2 earlier? Obsec has some value - but its unclear its all that, hence the fact many armies keep troops to a minimum. Equally if Choppa Boyz were 7 points you would just be back to "these are great, take 180 of them, Kommandos/Storm Boyz are comparatively clearly overcosted."

Its a similar shout with Shoota Boyz (although I think a reduction down to 8 points there could be justified). I don't actually think they compare "that" badly with 11 point basic SoB. But there's a reason the list which won the Lone Star Open contained precisely 5 and no more. If you could take units of 5 Shoota Boyz I think there'd be more debate versus Grots if you see the unit in terms of pure tax in say a mainly speedwaaagh list.

Meanwhile, people with just one unit of gretchin are worried if they have a fighting chance if they have to bring two units of boyz as tax

Karol wrote:
Wych or succubi are glass only if someone runs them on foot. And both those units trade up.

Boys don't trade up.

Exactly, a pathetic, lowly, pitiful, weak ork boy (9ppm, 3A S4 AP-1 D1) could never compare to a busted, broken, super OP, way stronger wych (10ppm, 4A S3 AP-1 D1) in terms of trading up for their points cost.

Besides, Wyches are so much faster - their transport can move 12", dump them out, then they can advance and charge turn 1 and effortlessly get into melee with a +1A buff.

No, wait, is that wyches that do that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I think Choppa Boyz are reasonable at 9 points - and would be downright crazy at 7. The issue they have is shared with a lot of Troops Units. I.E. Why take them when you can take Kommandos and Stormboyz for 1-2 more points, who will do more or less the same thing on the table a turn or 2 earlier? Obsec has some value - but its unclear its all that, hence the fact many armies keep troops to a minimum. Equally if Choppa Boyz were 7 points you would just be back to "these are great, take 180 of them, Kommandos/Storm Boyz are comparatively clearly overcosted."

Its a similar shout with Shoota Boyz (although I think a reduction down to 8 points there could be justified). I don't actually think they compare "that" badly with 11 point basic SoB. But there's a reason the list which won the Lone Star Open contained precisely 5 and no more. If you could take units of 5 Shoota Boyz I think there'd be more debate versus Grots if you see the unit in terms of pure tax in say a mainly speedwaaagh list.

Meanwhile, people with just one unit of gretchin are worried if they have a fighting chance if they have to bring two units of boyz as tax

You literally only have to take one single troop squad to have 8 of one slot of your choice and 4 of every other slot.

You're gonna take your 1 trukk boyz squad in a patrol,

and then you're gonna take a spearhead/outrider and it's going to be 100% worth the CP because, what the feth are you spending those on otherwise in an ork army lol, might as well use them to avoid taking any of the tax troops (Non-trukkboy boyz/gretchins) or the tax HQs (garbage big meks/weirdboyz)

People winning tournaments with 0 ork boyz in their lists seem to disagree. I think trukk boyz are a nice gimmick for those who want to run them (including me), but nothing worth considering for any competitive gaming.
It's also worth noting that you can give that trukk boyz buff to MANz.

 Jidmah wrote:
People winning tournaments with 0 ork boyz in their lists seem to disagree. I think trukk boyz are a nice gimmick for those who want to run them (including me), but nothing worth considering for any competitive gaming.
It's also worth noting that you can give that trukk boyz buff to MANz.

We haven't had any tournaments with them yet, have we?

I guess adopting a position of "Boyz are fine, you should just never see them in competitive lists" is a bit irrational.

But its kind of my view on a lot of troops units. I mean we often talk about the power of intercessors (and variants) - but I feel the days of a Marine player bringing 40~ along as the "core" of their list have long gone. If the answer is "throw half your points into your basic troops" then usually it means the book's got internal balance issues.

I guess this is where the DE-power comes in. I think spamming wyches is a bad idea - but one unit of 10 is a staple in most lists. It would have probably been a good idea to ensure at least one unit of boyz is a worthwhile take. Trukk Boyz could be this - but if you can take MANz that's probably a superior option, and I think either in a Speedwaaagh set up is probably inefficient over another couple of buggies. (Or say 10 grots and 5 bikes.)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
People winning tournaments with 0 ork boyz in their lists seem to disagree. I think trukk boyz are a nice gimmick for those who want to run them (including me), but nothing worth considering for any competitive gaming.
It's also worth noting that you can give that trukk boyz buff to MANz.

We haven't had any tournaments with them yet, have we?

We have allready. 2 orks took place 1 and 2 with buggy spam and 0 boyz.

 koooaei wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
People winning tournaments with 0 ork boyz in their lists seem to disagree. I think trukk boyz are a nice gimmick for those who want to run them (including me), but nothing worth considering for any competitive gaming.
It's also worth noting that you can give that trukk boyz buff to MANz.

We haven't had any tournaments with them yet, have we?

We have allready. 2 orks took place 1 and 2 with buggy spam and 0 boyz.

Yep, just saw those. With early success like that I doubt we'll see anyone move to Boyz for quite some time. Neither of them faced Admech so I'm curious to see more.

It bothers me quite a bit that shoota boyz are now just objectively so much worse than slugga choppa, particularly since it's not like their shootas have any AP on them, and having to be within 9" or less to get the Dakka bonus is ridiculous. Sure I can push that to a whopping 12" with Bad Moons, but boyz on 32mm bases also take up a good amount of table space. Not that I'm great at the mathammer stuff, but it feels like there's NO reason at all to take shootas now, ever.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
It bothers me quite a bit that shoota boyz are now just objectively so much worse than slugga choppa, particularly since it's not like their shootas have any AP on them, and having to be within 9" or less to get the Dakka bonus is ridiculous. Sure I can push that to a whopping 12" with Bad Moons, but boyz on 32mm bases also take up a good amount of table space. Not that I'm great at the mathammer stuff, but it feels like there's NO reason at all to take shootas now, ever.

If you can shoot out of a trukk I guess you can try to do drivebys with them? But yeah I'm having trouble trying to work out an effective use for my shoota boyz too.

There probably is no such way

 koooaei wrote:
There probably is no such way

If a FAQ makes it so that shoota boyz mounted on a trukk receive full benefits of speedwaagh! You could make them semi-competitive.

PS: now that scorcha are just regular flamers do boyz finally get to have them? That would be nice option to have around and since they are remaking the boyz box, it could have been a new option.

So we are all on the same page I think the winning list was as follows:



Burna Boyz the obvious question mark - but you can't argue with results. Maybe I'm missing something there.
I'd be minded to ditch the Tankbustas and Burna Boyz plus say a Big Choppa for 3 more Scrapjets. (Consolidate one Warbikers unit to make 2 squads of 5 to release the necessary FA slot.)

I guess there's not much sense in maxing out skrapjets in a single squad cause of ld and things like eradicators or melts drops.
Or he couldn't find this many buggies in time.

As for burnas, they aren't half bad now. You can simply walk them hidden within a buggy blob, they can perform actions, shoot some chaff, fix a buggy every turn, maybe, act as some sort of charge deterrent with ap2 but not sure about it.

Just don't forget that this lists areheavilly skewed to fit the heavy blos environment that the tourneys try to implement nowadays to somehow mitigate going 2d. Things that would never work in your local store can suddenly work when half the board is high blos.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.

Sorry, but that's one of the worst metrics to determine whether someone is good at combat. By that metric both marines and eldar are vastly better melee armies and should get their shooting taken away to compensate.

Whether an army or a unit is good at something is not determined by their ability to hit.

I don't see how your interpretation of what I said makes any sense. Eldar and Marines have equal WS and BS. Orks have a clear emphasis on melee with their basic stats. And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.

So, weren't you just saying that WS is the only thing that matters? Now it's also number of attacks? Or let's get wild and we have to look at the whole picture and take all stats into consideration to find out who is good at combat? And let's go a step further and include rules and army synergy. Crazy talk, right?

An no, even in prior editions, marines and eldar always had similar or better melee stats than orks. Today even if you pick a random chapter with no real benefit for melee, a unit of intercessors tends to be just as deadly in combat as an equally costed units of boyz.

[It's really easy.

An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.

The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.

Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.

 Insectum7 wrote:


An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.

The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.

Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.

That's true. And orks have indeed been good in mellee for the most part - at least since 3d edition. The profile of all troops is more mellee-oriented at it's core.

And if we remember good ol' days of, say, 5th edition, an ork had s3 with furious charge (which made him s4 on the turn he charged) and 2 attacks base and his cost was 6 pts. While a marine had 1 s4 attack while costing something around 15 or 16, can't remember the exact cost. Ork boyz outchopped most regular infantry point-to-point. Even shootaboyz were quite good in mellee and were truly feared as they mowed down 1w termies, vehicles, monsters... Basically, most units in the game didn't want to get charged by a bunch of boyz. Especially if there was a powerklaw nobody that alone could wreck basically any target if you got a bit lucky. He did cost like 41 pts but he was well worth it. And they were fearless if 10+ boyz remained. Also, loosing more than 30 to shooting was fairly uncommon even in 2k games.

If you look at them now, their profile is basically the same with the exception of str being 4 by default. But they got a 50% price increase since than. Basic Marines cost almost the same but got 3 times choppier and a 2d wound, most vehicles - even light ones get a decent chance of surviving a charge of 15-20 boyz, and it's rare to NOT loose a squad of 30 per turn as damage is turned to 11 compared to what there used to be during 4th and 5th. Pk Nob is significantly cheaper but he's a joke compared to his 5th or even 6-7 to that extent - self.

So, 5th boyz are 2 heads above current boyz in most regards.

What about 8th boyz. They were good at the start when they still costed 7,were clan-less,could benefit from Ghaz and not be so easily shot off the board as firepower was still not too often for them.

Than codexes started dropping, boyz became worse and worse but than our own codex came out with Green tide and clans and here we go again, boyz are still decent, not 5th level of good but you could expect at least 30 in any list cause of green tide and reliable dajump. It was only to take 60.

Than 9 dropped and boyz got to 8 ppm. Which seemed bad but than most things got a price hike. So, they were still a decent unit. Still showing on top tables from time to time. Than power creep codexes started to show and orks, to get here with boyz disappeared from top tables, yet, Green tide boyz with semi-fearless were still ok to take in a local tourney without cut-throat lists.

Than we got a new codex. That took out their fearless, Green tide, upped a price to crazy 9ppm, and took away reliable dajump and army wide free 6++ from deff skulls and +1 to charge from evil sunz. It did give us t5 and ap1 choppas which is nice but not nearly enough to justify taking boyz other than something like an odd trukkboy min squad in your local game.

All in all, it's just another iconic unit that got shelved for the most part. Like tactical Marines. I guess, it's the faith of all such units GW will probably push their new beast snaggas, cause currently they're even in a worse state than poor boyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, all in all, yes, our stats are more mellee-oriented - even on shooty vehicles, but all the other factors just make mellee not that appealing. We do have good mellee units - especially from the new boxes - killings, sqymuigosaurs, squighogs, but all the old stuff is just not something you'd throw at the enemy up front. More of a "chop the last couple primaries Marines off the objective".
And what good we have in mellee does not compete with mellee from all the other new codexes. We have no chance of going toe to toe against mellee de, da, dg, even Marines with dreadnaughts that haven't received a new book yet. We now see what GK can do and we're better off not going anywhere near them. Even thousand sons are a problem for our mellee. So, of all the new factions, we can probably go toe to toe with admech mellee, which is saying something, doesn't it? Orks are an army with ws3 bs5 a2 base stat line which is one of the worst in mellee and one of the best at shooting ATM. What can I say... DAKKADAKKADAKKA

The stats of old boyz were great by comparison, but they had to be, because you died in droves when you got caught running with I2. And depending on edition with no grenades charging into terrain was suicide as well as quite difficult with no premeasure and a low move.