Chaos needs a lot of work.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**H.B.M.C.**

tneva82 wrote:
Well that's what is GW design paradim. Whatever chaos does for marks you can be sure it's free.

You don't pay points based on are you ultramarine or white scar do you?

Your comparison makes no sense. Marks aren't Chapters.

**Semper**

Having played Chaos for my entire gaming career I think that the marks as simple upgrades work best, albeit not simple from a game development perspective. I'd like them to be more nuanced and meaningful but I think all that does is create a barrier to having them exist at all.

That's possibly why you'd want them to be derivative of existing, costed models that can be applied to similar models in a scaled way.

For example, if we know berserkers have a fight twice ability, an extra attack, extra WS and extra strength over an ordinary CSM for 6 points it would stand to reason that X ability = y points (you'd hope). As such, then you could apply the mark of khorne, adding in an extra attack for n pts per model. This would be more for terminators and less for cultists. You'd then attempt to avoid being able to mark specialised or vehicle models that differ too much from the evolution. IE, no marked defilers and no marked obliterators but these unmarkable units would not break the mono bonus. Lore is broad so I am sure some smoke and mirrors BS could be shovelled up to account for that.

Similarly for a 5++/+1 invul for Tzeentch, 6+ FNP for nurgle and extra movement or strike first in slannesh (I am sure there could be more relevant and balanced abilities but this is just to demonstrate).

Then there could be a mono-build bonus I guess. If every unit in this army is marked by khorne, the unit get s a 5+ FNP against MW caused by psychic powers. Nurgle could get something like all is dust but army wide, tzeentch -1 to hit at over 12" range, slannesh a 6+ FNP against non-MW damage. Not genuine suggestions, just space filling.

You could then throw on an extra boon via new summoning/possession mechanics whereby a unit dedicated to that god gets extra benefits doing so. A unit with the mark of khorne gets +1 to summoning a bloodthirster yadda yadda.

**macluvin**

My thing with marks being a purchase-able upgrade is fine, but if we consistently have legion traits being worse than half a trait for loyalists, I don’t think it would change much to make buffs from marks of chaos free. We get a crappy half of a loyalist trait and a mark of chaos buff. Or, price our marines cheaper than a loyalist equivalent because they have better rules, then make the difference hover around the cost of a mark of chaos upgrade.
In that vein though, if we are making these buffs an upgrade that needs points paid for it, I was thinking that marks of chaos could be a keyword showing devotion to a god, and then having an upgrade buff like a “glory of <mark of chaos>”. The mark by itself unlocks wargear options (to include the glory that has the buff) as well as stratagems and what not. But the mark by itself does nothing else.
Side note, I really think that Khorne should bestow his favor on shooting as well as close combat. Such a thing would be entirely fluffy. I was considering maybe a buff that triggers after an enemy unit is wiped out, to incentivize both shooting and close combat in a khornate list without necessitating either.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

New update has changed (?) Death to the False Emperor to getting an extra hit when you roll a 6 to hit in melee.

No idea how that affects things. Like. At all. I don’t even know what Death to the False Emperor does. Or did, I suppose.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
New update has changed (?) Death to the False Emperor to getting an extra hit when you roll a 6 to hit in melee.

No idea how that affects things. Like. At all. I don’t even know what Death to the False Emperor does. Or did, I suppose.

Well it did the exact same thing but only to imperials

I found the rule quite helpful - against imperials

I guess it's nice but you know we're waiting for our 2nd wound GW...

**Voss**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
New update has changed (?) Death to the False Emperor to getting an extra hit when you roll a 6 to hit in melee.

No idea how that affects things. Like. At all. I don’t even know what Death to the False Emperor does. Or did, I suppose.

It was Imperium specific, but otherwise the same. Now chaos players get to shout 'Death to the false emperor!' at Eldar and Tyranids. But they can't have a second wound, because... screw you, that's why.

**Gadzilla666**

Voss wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
New update has changed (?) Death to the False Emperor to getting an extra hit when you roll a 6 to hit in melee.

No idea how that affects things. Like. At all. I don’t even know what Death to the False Emperor does. Or did, I suppose.

It was Imperium specific, but otherwise the same. Now chaos players get to shout 'Death to the false emperor!' at Eldar and Tyranids. But they can't have a second wound, because... screw you, that's why.

Aye, we need that second wound a lot more than more killing power. Killing things isn't our problem, it's not getting killed ourselves. Guess CSM just have to focus on sheer murder power now. Just what the game needs......

**DreadfullyHopeful**

YES ! Time for the Flawless Host to rise as the superior Slanesh legion

But seriously, I'm eager to try the new DTTFE with my EC !

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait. No it's way more of a buff !

Change the Death to the false Emperor ability to read:'Each time a model with this ability makes a melee attack, a hit roll of 6+ scores an additional hit.'

We don't need to roll to confirm the second hit ! Damn it's going to be real good for World Eaters !

**Racerguy180**

I guess DTTFE makes up for 1 wound????

**Eldarain**

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Wait. No it's way more of a buff !

Change the Death to the false Emperor ability to read:'Each time a model with this ability makes a melee attack, a hit roll of 6+ scores an additional hit.'

We don't need to roll to confirm the second hit ! Damn it's going to be real good for World Eaters !

What are the chances the disregard for the faction is the cause of this accidental improvement and it's changed again shortly?

Given it's altered functionality perhaps just renaming the whole thing "Let the Galaxy Burn" might have been considered. If it remains in the eventual codex hopefully they do something like that.

**Insectum7**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Voss wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
New update has changed (?) Death to the False Emperor to getting an extra hit when you roll a 6 to hit in melee.

No idea how that affects things. Like. At all. I don’t even know what Death to the False Emperor does. Or did, I suppose.

It was Imperium specific, but otherwise the same. Now chaos players get to shout 'Death to the false emperor!' at Eldar and Tyranids. But they can't have a second wound, because... screw you, that's why.

Aye, we need that second wound a lot more than more killing power. Killing things isn't our problem, it's not getting killed ourselves. Guess CSM just have to focus on sheer murder power now. Just what the game needs......

It's REALLY silly that CSMs are still running around with 1w. Imo this new update should have applied that fix and it's really stupid that it didn't. Pick units, add wound, give point adjustment, done.

**DreadfullyHopeful**

Eldarain wrote:

What are the chances the disregard for the faction is the cause of this accidental improvement and it's changed again shortly?

Given it's altered functionality perhaps just renaming the whole thing "Let the Galaxy Burn" might have been considered. If it remains in the eventual codex hopefully they do something like that.

Let's cross our fingers ! Personally I love rules like exploding 6s (when not over-tuned). It might be because of the small rush of dopamine with every roll of a six.

**macluvin**

Dysartes wrote:
macluvin wrote:
It annoys me to no end that a chaos space marine squad has always been a loyalist tac squad with no flavor and being even more fragile than their power armor because of the lacking of and they shall know no fear and without the extra punch of combat doctrines and useful chapter traits

"Always" is a strange way of saying "since the 2.0 SM 'dex in 8th edition" - or, at this point, for two years and two months, the majority of which has been during a global pandemic...
.

No 7th edition was a thing... it didn’t take much to make a chaos space marine squad just explode and run away. 6th edition too. 8th edition chapter tactics were way better than chaos traits as well, even in the 1.0 codex. Towards the end of 8th 11ppm csm squads were starting to look like they finally had some sort of advantage over loyalists but it was that you were trading decent rules for a dirt cheap power armor model. Chaos space marine equivalents of loyalists were almost always just drain the flavor out of loyalists and anything that might make them useful or surviveable and that’s what you get.

**H.B.M.C.**

Excellent. More killing power. Just what this game needs.

**vict0988**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Excellent. More killing power. Just what this game needs.

25% more damage in melee against most armies, still cannot get 2W.

**Rogerio134134**

Crispy78 wrote:
Rogerio134134 wrote:
Anyone think we could really do with a recon unit? I know in the fluff the normal Astartes do jobs like that but would be very cool to see a marine unit equipped with some recce style stuff
With a chaos twist. Possibly some kind of daemonic optic thing akin to a Daemon host, a floating little eye out whatnot.

Total spitballing here but it makes sense to have something like that to me.

It sounds like a cool idea for a model, but what benefits would it bring to the army on the tabletop? CSM don't really do long range non-LOS shooting. In past editions it might serve as a deep-strike marker but that's not really applicable any more.

Yeah I'm not totally sure but I just remember from storm of iron when honsou and a few other marines infiltrate the bunker to take out the sentries and they had covered themselves in dust and dirt to be more stealthy. I really like the idea is iron warrior saboteur style marines getting forward with demo charges and mines etc.

Fingers crossed the new chosen unit will be able to infiltrate as the elite troops. Personally buzzing for the new chaos codex when it comes.

**Eldarain**

It would harken back to 2nd editions veterans who functioned that way. Having infiltrate and dispersed coherency

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Watching a review of the Nachmund goodies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1SaPDkZGt0

The Chaos Squad seems to be exactly what I wanted Chaos to be (as ever, there are many interpretations of what Chaos should be). Head canon them to VOTLW. Less a regimented squad, more a band of like minded psychos, each of whom has their own peccadillo and preference. Marauders rather than a military unit.

I’m excited to see how they fold into the main CSM Codex.

**Voss**

That will be somewhat interesting to see, especially the possessed that just... isn't called that. Big Hand Boy doesn't really roll off the tongue.

**Gadzilla666**

Voss wrote:
That will be somewhat interesting to see, especially the possessed that just... isn't called that. Big Hand Boy doesn't really roll off the tongue.

With that tongue? I'm thinking that "The Anteater" fits pretty well.

**Strg Alt**

Insectum7 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Voss wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
New update has changed (?) Death to the False Emperor to getting an extra hit when you roll a 6 to hit in melee.

No idea how that affects things. Like. At all. I don’t even know what Death to the False Emperor does. Or did, I suppose.

It was Imperium specific, but otherwise the same. Now chaos players get to shout 'Death to the false emperor!' at Eldar and Tyranids. But they can't have a second wound, because... screw you, that's why.

Aye, we need that second wound a lot more than more killing power. Killing things isn't our problem, it's not getting killed ourselves. Guess CSM just have to focus on sheer murder power now. Just what the game needs......
It's REALLY silly that CSMs are still running around with 1w. Imo this new update should have applied that fix and it's really stupid that it didn't. Pick units, add wound, give point adjustment, done.

NPC faction syndrome.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
My idea for Marks was escalating abilities based upon what had the Mark.

1. Regular units (anything that isn't a Daemon basically).
2. Daemonic units (anything that is - possessed, etc.)
3. Exalted units (Greater Daemons, Heralds, Special Characters).

And keep it on a simple scale, for example:

Mark of Khorne
Regular - Gain +1 Attack.
Daemonic - Gain +1 Attack, may Advance & Charge.
Exalted - Gain +1 Attack, may Advance & Charge, gain +2" to Advance/Charge rolls.

Mark of Tzeentch
Regular - Gain +6 Invul (or add +1 to existing Invul save).
Daemonic - Gain 6+ Invul (or add +1 to existing), gain 6+ Psychic Save (or add +1 to existing)
Exalted - Gain 6+ Invul (or add +1 to existing), Gain 6+ Psychic Save (or add +1 to existing), gain +1 to Cast/Deny

And so on. The Cult Troops would be a bit different in that they'd have the basic level, plus their own rules (like All is Dust and whatnot).

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Variety of unit leaders (Champion, Junior Warpsmith, Junior Dark Apostle, Junior Sorceror).
Aspiring Apostle is hard to say.

The problem I raised is still valid. People will cherry pick the best marks for the suitable units and just pick those.

Like from your example, even with the restriction tables, probably nobody will ever pick mark of Tzeentch for regular units because a 6++ does nothing for most of our stuff which are already a 3+ armor save. Yet, the same min max player will absolutely pick mark of Tzeentch for demonic units, because all demonic units are already 5++. If marks are free, then basically, if I run a mostly demonic units CSM army, I suddenly have 4++ save across the board ... for free.

Also remember I posted before on this forum about stacking buffs? A +1 to invul save here already creates a 4++ demonic army, if you add any other way to further increase invul save, then soon you will hit 3++ or even 2++. Like, a simple weaver of fates psychic boosts this to a 3++ invul. A single psychic cursed earth also increases every Tzeentch marked daemon unit within a 6 inch bubble to a 3++. So, now you might be facing a mostly 3++ invul army with just 2 psychic going off. So, yeah ... 9 obliterators surrounding a master of possession rocking a 3++ save, with a unit of 20 possessed in front leading the charge also rocking a 3++ save... all for free too, without even requiring a single CP or strategem, just two psychics.

Now, we are in a very silly meta right now. We already have orc speed freak armies with planes, admech flyer armies, and drukhari. So who knows, maybe by the time the CSM codex comes out, this is perfectly fine. But from my perspective, it just encourages players to gravitate to the most obviously powerful mark because it all free anyway. So, if Tzeetch mark was the best for demonic units, and Nurgle was the best for regular ones, and Khorne or slanaash mark was the best for exalted units, then we will see the Min Max players do this.

And out of 4 marks, there will always be an "ideal" best mark for a certain unit type.

Then abolish no-brainer choices and get back to the drawing board.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Then marks shouldn't be free and instead be costed properly.
And maybe relics, Warlord traits and subfaction rules shouldn't be free, either to prevent seeing the same ones' over and over as well as putting three Warlord traits in every army which results in people regarding the Edition as bloated. But I guess that’s something for the "what would you like to see in 10th" debate

.