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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Careful, lest you swing between either getting the fairly decent Rubric Marine kit or the ghastly Plague Marine kit.

Let's not kid ourselves, it's going to be the latter. And it'll have 6 models (to the Plague Marine's 7) and cost the same as other race's 10-man boxes.

"One in every 6 Noise Marines may replace his Sonic Blaster with a Blast Master..."

One poster's predictions are going to be completely correct. One poster's predictions will be fairly close. One poster will bemoan "WAIT AND SEE" and proclaim themselves correct regardless of what happens, and then defend GW no matter what.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So if Night Lords want their trait to work they need to load up on: Raptors (makes sense), Daemon Princes and Possessed (in the Legion known for avoiding Chaos worship), and Mutant Culstists and Spawn (in the Legion known to have the least amount of mutations, because of that whole avoiding Chaos worship thing). So once again, gw can't read the fluff in their own codexes. Way to go.

And why can the Warpsmith only buff DAEMON ENGINES, instead of just VEHICLES? Did he forget how normal vehicles work? He can only do "Giant Evil Spiders" and dinobots now?

And only one available loadout for Exalted Champions? Based on an old kit? Good grief, I hope these particular playtest rules failed so hard that they took them out back and burned them.

I'm at least glad that there are indeed more things that have a leadership debuff aura...

BUT I expect it to be called the same rule across the units and have a clarification that it doesn't stack with other units that have it, so it'll be a moot point anyway.

Earlier I thought it was rumored that the Exalted Champ was missing from the Codex. Now he's there, but only with one loadout... For a kit that came out prior to the upscaling of all marine models. That's... seriously crappy.

I'm also seriously hoping that these playtest rules didn't pass muster. I can only pray that one or two people in the playtesting group pointed out these weird restrictions and errors.

Ironically, the limited Chosen box is actually perfect for making Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions and other things for your army, but if you can't take any options, then there's no point in it anyway.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So if Night Lords want their trait to work they need to load up on: Raptors (makes sense), Daemon Princes and Possessed (in the Legion known for avoiding Chaos worship), and Mutant Culstists and Spawn (in the Legion known to have the least amount of mutations, because of that whole avoiding Chaos worship thing). So once again, gw can't read the fluff in their own codexes. Way to go.

And why can the Warpsmith only buff DAEMON ENGINES, instead of just VEHICLES? Did he forget how normal vehicles work? He can only do "Giant Evil Spiders" and dinobots now?

And only one available loadout for Exalted Champions? Based on an old kit? Good grief, I hope these particular playtest rules failed so hard that they took them out back and burned them.

I regret ever buying all my Chaos Landraider, Predator tanks and Demolishers. All gonna be shelved forever. : (


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, if the Nortilith Crown rumor is correct, its decent actually. T8, it also has a 4++ save. It is relatively resilient. And giving nearby sorcerors and Apostles the ability to do a ritual to get a CP back is nifty. Plus I always did like its old ability to give stuff in its aura a 4++

If its cheap enough in points (at least the same points as what it is now). I think I might dig mine out and try it.

Does anyone else find it nonsensical that an Aspiring Champion in basic CSM Squad can take a Daemon Weapon that does mortal wounds. But the Exalted Champion, Chosen and Terminators can't have one ever.

 Sersi wrote:
Does anyone else find it nonsensical that an Aspiring Champion in basic CSM Squad can take a Daemon Weapon that does mortal wounds. But the Exalted Champion, Chosen and Terminators can't have one ever.

Are you attempting to suggest that this Codex may be... bad?

Final leak of the day:

who has the DAEMONKIN keyword:

MoP
Possessed
Warptalon
Obliterators

So, Daemon Engines are their own separate thing supported by the Lord Discordant and Warpsmith.

 Sersi wrote:
Final leak of the day:

who has the DAEMONKIN keyword:

MoP
Possessed
Warptalon
Obliterators

So, Daemon Engines are their own separate thing supported by the Lord Discordant and Warpsmith.

At least now the Warpsmith has a use now. If you want to run shooty Daemon Engines, then run a warp smith. If you want melee daemon engines, run a LD.

 Flipsiders wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Does anyone else find it nonsensical that an Aspiring Champion in basic CSM Squad can take a Daemon Weapon that does mortal wounds. But the Exalted Champion, Chosen and Terminators can't have one ever.

Are you attempting to suggest that this Codex may be... bad?

I'm trying to stay positive. Let's hope that the stratagems, psychic powers, prayers, warlord traits, and "Warband Abilities" are enough to make up the difference. If not yeah...this is all sounding kind of bad from a narrative and gameplay perspective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:


On a side note, if the Nortilith Crown rumor is correct, its decent actually. T8, it also has a 4++ save. It is relatively resilient. And giving nearby sorcerors and Apostles the ability to do a ritual to get a CP back is nifty. Plus I always did like its old ability to give stuff in its aura a 4++

If its cheap enough in points (at least the same points as what it is now). I think I might dig mine out and try it.

Don't forget that the Legionnaire Squads can take a PSYKER upgrade so you don't have to use a Sorcerer for the action.

 Sersi wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Does anyone else find it nonsensical that an Aspiring Champion in basic CSM Squad can take a Daemon Weapon that does mortal wounds. But the Exalted Champion, Chosen and Terminators can't have one ever.

Are you attempting to suggest that this Codex may be... bad?

I'm trying to stay positive. Let's hope that the stratagems, psychic powers, prayers, warlord traits, and "Warband Abilities" are enough to make up the difference. If not yeah...this is all sounding kind of bad from a narrative and gameplay perspective.

Stratagems and warlord traits wont let you take other weapon options for models that have nothing but what comes in the kit...

Thanks to Sersi and ClockworkChris for the rumours !

I guess I'll have to bide my time for the full sonic weapons data (as I try to stay positive for the rest of the codex )

 Lord Damocles wrote:
WaIT aNd SeE

I mean...yeah? I was here in the lead up to the new Custodes Codex and the way everyone was talking about the leaks you'd have thought it was the worst dex ever. Then it actually came out and they started beating even DE and winning championships and now suddenly even Custodes players admit some things might need to be nerfed.

I am NOT saying this will happen with CSM but...wait and see.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
WaIT aNd SeE

I mean...yeah? I was here in the lead up to the new Custodes Codex and the way everyone was talking about the leaks you'd have thought it was the worst dex ever. Then it actually came out and they started beating even DE and winning championships and now suddenly even Custodes players admit some things might need to be nerfed.

I am NOT saying this will happen with CSM but...wait and see.

People like Damocles are putting that out there which... doesn't actually help the conversation at all.

I get it, yes, wait and see what actually happens, I've said it myself in this very forum about a hundred times, but speculation is actually fun, and if we get something better than what we're expecting, then great. If we get exactly what we're expecting, well, at least we didn't buy into over-hype and buy a bunch of models based on rumors or the old codex.

Man, reading those rumors about Champions and accursed weapons and looking at Harlequins... Maybe 10th edition will reduce unit options to: power weapon, heavy weapon, special weapon. Special weapon keyword allows you to pay 1CP for Plasma shot or melta shot or flamer shot.
Heavy weapon Upgrade allows you to pay 1CP for krak/frag missile shot, Lascannon shot, heavy melta shot.
That way we can equip what we want and us stupid narrative players will use strats for the weapons we have actually modelled and tournament players be like: dude, it's a special weapon, of course it can fire a Plasma shot.
But it's obviousely a melta!
Get over it, CAAC.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So if Night Lords want their trait to work they need to load up on: Raptors (makes sense), Daemon Princes and Possessed (in the Legion known for avoiding Chaos worship), and Mutant Culstists and Spawn (in the Legion known to have the least amount of mutations, because of that whole avoiding Chaos worship thing). So once again, gw can't read the fluff in their own codexes. Way to go.

Given one of the better-known canonical examples of a Night Lords warband is led by a Daemon Prince, maybe dial back some of this gak, eh?

What you've got stuck in your head as being how the NL operate, and how GW apparently see Night Lords operating in 40k appear to be quite different, at least around the use of power from Chaos.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So if Night Lords want their trait to work they need to load up on: Raptors (makes sense), Daemon Princes and Possessed (in the Legion known for avoiding Chaos worship), and Mutant Culstists and Spawn (in the Legion known to have the least amount of mutations, because of that whole avoiding Chaos worship thing). So once again, gw can't read the fluff in their own codexes. Way to go.

Given one of the better-known canonical examples of a Night Lords warband is led by a Daemon Prince, maybe dial back some of this gak, eh?

What you've got stuck in your head as being how the NL operate, and how GW apparently see Night Lords operating in 40k appear to be quite different, at least around the use of power from Chaos.

I agree with a lot of Gad's points, but I have to say that the whole "Uh, Night Lords don't use Chaos!" thing has not been canon for well over 5 editions at this point. The same goes for the Iron Warriors. These brief snippets of lore in the older books have long since been overruled by stuff in later codexes and Black Library books, yet some people still seem to think that depictions of Night Lords and Iron Warriors as Chaos Worshippers just aren't real?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
All exalted champions, regardless of origin, legion, or mark of Chaos, utilize the exact same three weapons as every other exalted champion. They absolutely will not use any more or any less, such is the will of the Dark Gods.

Will of the Dark Gods my ass. Exalted Champions are all WAAC bastards and that loadout has the highest probability of earning daemonhood.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So if Night Lords want their trait to work they need to load up on: Raptors (makes sense), Daemon Princes and Possessed (in the Legion known for avoiding Chaos worship), and Mutant Culstists and Spawn (in the Legion known to have the least amount of mutations, because of that whole avoiding Chaos worship thing). So once again, gw can't read the fluff in their own codexes. Way to go.

Given one of the better-known canonical examples of a Night Lords warband is led by a Daemon Prince, maybe dial back some of this gak, eh?

What you've got stuck in your head as being how the NL operate, and how GW apparently see Night Lords operating in 40k appear to be quite different, at least around the use of power from Chaos.

I agree with a lot of Gad's points, but I have to say that the whole "Uh, Night Lords don't use Chaos!" thing has not been canon for well over 5 editions at this point. The same goes for the Iron Warriors. These brief snippets of lore in the older books have long since been overruled by stuff in later codexes and Black Library books, yet some people still seem to think that depictions of Night Lords and Iron Warriors as Chaos Worshippers just aren't real?

I think people also have that idea with Alpha Legion. Too many theories of them "secretly being loyalist" automatically means that every single Alpha Legion doesn't fall to chaos? And aren't Warp Talons a unit people often associate with Night Lords? The unit that is described as animalistic, sleep upside down on a ceiling like a bat, and use their talons to carve through the immaterium to randomly pop up and attack an enemy unit? That sounds a bit mutated.

I don't have any issue with people wanting to make their own force toned down with chaos. Like using MK3 marines to represent CSM IW, etc. But unless the lore outright states that an army refuses to use certain units (like Black Templars and Librarians), there really shouldn't be that big of an issue.

 GaroRobe wrote:
I think people also have that idea with Alpha Legion. Too many theories of them "secretly being loyalist" automatically means that every single Alpha Legion doesn't fall to chaos? And aren't Warp Talons a unit people often associate with Night Lords? The unit that is described as animalistic, sleep upside down on a ceiling like a bat, and use their talons to carve through the immaterium to randomly pop up and attack an enemy unit? That sounds a bit mutated.

I don't have any issue with people wanting to make their own force toned down with chaos. Like using MK3 marines to represent CSM IW, etc. But unless the lore outright states that an army refuses to use certain units (like Black Templars and Librarians), there really shouldn't be that big of an issue.

Tangentially, aren't warp talons corrupted by an other chaos god or am I mistaken ?

 blood reaper wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So if Night Lords want their trait to work they need to load up on: Raptors (makes sense), Daemon Princes and Possessed (in the Legion known for avoiding Chaos worship), and Mutant Culstists and Spawn (in the Legion known to have the least amount of mutations, because of that whole avoiding Chaos worship thing). So once again, gw can't read the fluff in their own codexes. Way to go.

Given one of the better-known canonical examples of a Night Lords warband is led by a Daemon Prince, maybe dial back some of this gak, eh?

What you've got stuck in your head as being how the NL operate, and how GW apparently see Night Lords operating in 40k appear to be quite different, at least around the use of power from Chaos.

I agree with a lot of Gad's points, but I have to say that the whole "Uh, Night Lords don't use Chaos!" thing has not been canon for well over 5 editions at this point. The same goes for the Iron Warriors. These brief snippets of lore in the older books have long since been overruled by stuff in later codexes and Black Library books, yet some people still seem to think that depictions of Night Lords and Iron Warriors as Chaos Worshippers just aren't real?

They do not appear to worship any one of the Chaos Gods, but rather fight solely for pleasure and material gain. They look down on their more dedicated brethren, be they fanatical Chaos Space Marines such as Khorne Berzerkers or zealous loyalists like Dark Angels. In place of faith and devotion, they respect only strength - that, the use of terror as a weapon.

Codex: Heretic Astartes, Chaos Space Marines, 8th edition: page 34

The Night Lords fight for the pleasure of the kill and for material gain, not because of the dictates of any deity - in fact, most of their number look down on the faithful as naive fools. The Night Lords put their faith in the use of fear as a weapon, the thrill of the chase, and the feast of murder at hunt's end.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines: 6th edition page 12

Because the Night Lords do not worship the Chaos Powers as gods they are reluctant to enter into Daemonic pacts so there are few daemons in their armies.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3.5, page 42

All of the evidence appears to indicate that they do not worship any of the Chaos Gods and have become instead cynical, hard-bitten, and frighteningly ruthless warriors who fight for the pleasure of fighting and material rewards it can bring. Some reports imply that this breeds a contemptuous attitude toward their more dedicated brethren, be they fanatical Chaos Space Marines such as Khorne Berzerkers, or zealous loyal Space Marines like the Dark Angels or Ultramarines.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 3rd edition, page 31

They do not appear to worship any one of the Chaos Gods and have become instead cynical, hard-bitten, and frighteningly ruthless warriors. They fight for the pleasure of it, and for the material rewards it can bring and not because they worship some deity. This attitude means they look down on their more dedicated brethren, be they fanatical Chaos Space Marines such as Khorne Berzerkers, or zealous loyal Space Marines like the Dark Angels or Ultramarines.

Codex: Chaos, 2nd edition, page 14

No, they pretty much stuck with that theme in fluff sections of the codexes, as you can see. But there are examples outside of the codexes of individual Night Lords and Night Lords warbands that deviate from the norm, such as Krieg Acerbus, who I assume is who Dysartes is referring to. And you should absolutely have the option to include any units, Marks, etc that you want to to represent such warbands if you want to. That's the point of Chaos, after all. But you shouldn't have to either, just to make that mess of a Legion trait work. Multiple themes should be possible to represent any of the Legions, and our units. There should be no codification for Chaos.

That's the biggest issue with CSM not getting the marine treatment with upgrade sprues and dedicated subfactions. We have all the chaos legions pretty much in one book. So far, only death guard and 1k sons have splintered off. Obviously we'll get the other two dedicated god legions further down the line. But instead of the other legions getting love, we've gotten upgrade sprues and characters for every loyalist legion, and even upgrade sprues and an entire model range for successor chapters.

You don't have to worship Chaos gods to become a possessed or a daemon prince. You just have to want power and sign a contract.

You can also be a hypocrite like most of the former legionaries and say one thing and do another.

I always find some people have a very narrow idea about their chosen faction and just roll with it as the official only way to interpret the faction.

I think the rules should encourage you to flanderize your faction but allow you to just not do it.
So you want to have Nightlords as spooky jump troops all the time and even their footsloggers having nasty trophies everywhere and their Dreads firing ugly guns that make a mess of the enemy? Cool, do it.

You want Nightlords that think Khorne Berzerkers are spooky and collecting skull trophies is cool as well and proper nightlordy? Well, you don't get all the boni perhaps but go on and do it!

A bit like 7th edition. Yes, some people complained that White Scars aren't that mongol horde on bikes all the time, but honestly it looks cool and is a clear identity for the army in a game that's loaded up with a huge number of factions that would be nice to have more differences than a mere paint scheme.

So let me see if I've got this straight.
Night Lord players now face a choice between easy power gained by accepting the gifts of the Dark Gods or rejecting them and instead staying true to their ideals?
Not fun fun the people involved, but on a certain poetic level, seems like their deal with the devil is working exactly as intended.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Defeatmyarmy wrote:
Loving the new Obliterators they will be good in a TAC list. Expect a spearhead of PBCS for support along with chosen in dreadclaws with THs will be a nice army as long as EC keep the 6” cp charge

Sorcerer
Apostle
3x cultists
2 chosen THs and claws
2x dreadclaws
3x 2 oblits

Poxbringer
3x PBCs

Current list I’m working on

If the Death Guard and Thousand Sons are anything to go by, that's too many cultists.

There's a Chaos player who recently went 5-1 beating Tau and Custodes with 30 cultists. They're not doing anything amazing, but they're doing something valuable.

3x10 Cultists
5 Chosen
Dreadclaw Pod
2x7 Warp Talons
5 Havocs

Poxbringer
Tallyman
3 PBCs

Slaanesh Herald
Slaanesh Herald Chariot
2x3 Nurglings
5 Furies

Not too many as-in “You’d be more efficient to take less.”
Too many as-in “The rules will probably not let you take that few, without more proper CSM.”

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've used Exalted Champs as my leaders in every Chaos list I've made. I bring multiple, usually one with Lightning Claws, and another with a Power Mace so I can give him the relic. Then, as I'm playing Red Corsairs, the LC guy gets the Talisman of Burning Blood.

But nope. No more options for us. He always has a Power Axe and Combi-Melta. That's what every Exalted Champion across the entire galaxy has.

God fething damn it GW...

wAiT aNd SeE

I find it kind of sad that the hive mind has popularized denigrating the idea that a person should have all the facts in front of them being making a judgement or reaction.

Kind of like how the world is in a bit of gak right now, because people jump on the first bit of info they agree with instead of rationally processing the whole situation with verifiable information.

To be clear - this rant isn't about whatever might happen in the codex. It's about people gaking on a useful method to process the world around us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Not too many as-in “You’d be more efficient to take less.”
Too many as-in “The rules will probably not let you take that few, without more proper CSM.”

Ah, right. Gotcha. Didn't read it properly. Danke.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I find it kind of sad that the hive mind has popularized denigrating the idea that a person should have all the facts in front of them being making a judgement or reaction.

Not even close, D.

The "wAiT aNd SeE" meme isn't denigrating the idea that a person should have all the facts before leaping to conclusions. It's ridiculing those that are too stubborn to engage in any level of speculation and those who refuse to draw any conclusions whatsoever, no matter the situation, and that now no matter how much is reported, there's always still more to 'wait' for.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I find it kind of sad that the hive mind has popularized denigrating the idea that a person should have all the facts in front of them being making a judgement or reaction.

Not even close, D.

The "wAiT aNd SeE" meme isn't denigrating the idea that a person should have all the facts before leaping to conclusions. It's ridiculing those that are too stubborn to engage in any level of speculation and those who refuse to draw any conclusions whatsoever, no matter the situation, and that now no matter how much is reported, there always still more to 'wait' for.

The rules for the Autarch in Eldrich Omens don't allow you to mix equipment from the two models?
WaIt aNd SeE tHe CodeX
The rules in Codex: Aeldari don't allow you to mix equipment from the two models?
wAiT anD sEe ThE FAq
The FAQ doesn't allow you to mix equipment from the two modles?
WaIt AnD SEe thE ChpTeR ApProvED
Nothing allows you to mix equipment from the two models?
waIT aNd sEe 10th eDiTiON

10th Edition finally allows the mixing, but probably while rotating one of the kits out.

SeE I tOlD yOu TheYD Do IT!

 GaroRobe wrote:
I think people also have that idea with Alpha Legion. Too many theories of them "secretly being loyalist" automatically means that every single Alpha Legion doesn't fall to chaos? And aren't Warp Talons a unit people often associate with Night Lords? The unit that is described as animalistic, sleep upside down on a ceiling like a bat, and use their talons to carve through the immaterium to randomly pop up and attack an enemy unit? That sounds a bit mutated.

As the obligatory Alpha Legion fan, I gotta jump in and make the point that most codexes which Gadzilla quoted earlier do not say the same thing about the AL. There are countless descriptions of AL legionnaires using Daemons and general warp stuff to get the advantage over their opponents, to the extent that the 8th ed dex mentions them even using mutations as a form of psychological warfare. The AL and IW are completely fine with getting friendly with the Chaos Gods when compared to the Night Lords, no matter what the former legion's intentions actually are.