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When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns? That isn't something that would bother me at all. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Newp.
Yup. I guess you're going to blame me for whoever cut you off in traffic the other day too.
No, because you've posted repeatedly in Guard threads over the years--and when I brought up the Sgt/Officers with Lasguns bit the responses you tended to give were "it's not in the kit" or "you have to convert it"--or "why does it matter?".
It matters for the same reason twin-LC Raptors/ACs did: People had them.
And have Rangers ever been able to get Radium Carbines? If so, then they should still be able to. Same for Vanguard and Galvanic Rifles. I don't support removing options.
No, because they're different unit loadouts.
Got a bunch of twin LC Raptors? You've got Warp Talons now!
I already have enough for three full squads. I don't need anymore. And lightning claws have been a legal option for Raptor Aspiring Champions for 22 years. This invalidates a lot of people's models. That's not cool.
I never said it was cool...but it's the way things are now.
Just consider yourself lucky that you weren't Onagered.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/13 17:19:36
Yo dude, dakka isn't one collective entity (I sure am complaining about this now and wasn't then because I didn't even know about it), people change, and if you're after years really so hurt by perceived slights (and I don't know that conversation so I'm accepting your experience as at very least your experience), why would you want to put toxic gak out there by doing exactly the same to others rather than recognize a shared experience and find a common ground of "I feel for you, that sucked when it happened for my army, sucks here too."
But also my point is you're saying exactly what you were denying Ninth was saying you were doing.
When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns? That isn't something that would bother me at all. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Newp.
Yup. I guess you're going to blame me for whoever cut you off in traffic the other day too.
No, because you've posted repeatedly in Guard threads over the years--and when I brought up the Sgt/Officers with Lasguns bit the responses you tended to give were "it's not in the kit" or "you have to convert it"--or "why does it matter?".
It matters for the same reason twin-LC Raptors/ACs did: People had them.
And have Rangers ever been able to get Radium Carbines? If so, then they should still be able to. Same for Vanguard and Galvanic Rifles. I don't support removing options.
No, because they're different unit loadouts.
Got a bunch of twin LC Raptors?
You've got Warp Talons now!
I already have enough for three full squads. I don't need anymore. And lightning claws have been a legal option for Raptor Aspiring Champions for 22 years. This invalidates a lot of people's models. That's not cool.
I never said it was cool...but it's the way things are now.
Just consider yourself lucky that you weren't Onagered.
No, I haven't. I searched my comments under both "Imperial Guard" and "Astra Militarum", just to see if I had, and had forgotten about it. I can't find anything. You're complaining about things others have said, not me. But enjoy others sharing in your problems, I guess.
Gadzilla666 wrote: When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns?
Putting aside the absurd Skitarii examples he attempted, the Sergeant + Lasguns thing is Kan's personal pet peeve. It's one his "Greatest Hits"*. He brings it up all the time, and has a very "If I can't get what I want, then none of you should get what you want!" attitude towards it.
And he's been singing this same tune for years.
*Alongside:
1. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus should be different armies (even though they were never intended as such, and he knows that, because the guy responsible said as much, and yet he still denies it). 2. Skitarii special weapon restrictions are all because of plasma weapons! It's all the fault of plasma weapons! 3. Points are evil, and anyone who uses them are evil (ignoring the fact that points have been an integral part of the game since before 2nd Ed came about). 4. Tournaments ruin everything for everyone.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/13 17:38:35
spiralingcadaver wrote: Yo dude, dakka isn't one collective entity (I sure am complaining about this now and wasn't then because I didn't even know about it), people change, and if you're after years really so hurt by perceived slights (and I don't know that conversation so I'm accepting your experience as at very least your experience), why would you want to put toxic gak out there by doing exactly the same to others rather than recognize a shared experience and find a common ground of "I feel for you, that sucked when it happened for my army, sucks here too."
Because I spent bloody years trying to be sympathetic to everyone else, only to constantly get dogpiled on.
But also my point is you're saying exactly what you were denying Ninth was saying you were doing.
There's a difference between actively advocating for(which is what Ninth said I was doing) and enjoying when the shoe is on the other foot for people that continually have said that the problem they are so upset about now was okay when it was someone else's problem.
No, I haven't. I searched my comments under both "Imperial Guard" and "Astra Militarum", just to see if I had, and had forgotten about it. I can't find anything. You're complaining about things others have said, not me. But enjoy others sharing in your problems, I guess.
I guess it's totally possible I've mistaken you for yet another poster who had "666" in their handle.
But my point remains:
Yours is not the only army this has happened to. Nor will it be the last. And it's not a question of "But I could do X for so many years!". GW doesn't bloody care.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/13 18:02:01
I’m quite bummed for everyone that loses options and models they spent hours making due to GW’s decision making. My chaos got hit hard and I do fear the same for my imperial guard. I’m happy that my Adeptus Mechanicus have rules, but even they have been hit with the bland bat, like onagers and robots used to have cool heavy shielding and double shooting and now they are just “lol”.
I don’t care that much about competitive beyond a desire to not have to fight invulnerable eldar or whatever other “doomed from the start” matchups. GW’s balance swings, while having FAQs at all is much better than not, have sucked and made playing the game not that appealing.
EDIT: The thing that everyone has been unsympathetic about, Kanluwen, is the Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus being released separately and then reduced in options when combined? That does suck. I didn’t know what special things the solo codexes had. I bought Skitarii when it came out but I didn’t play the game in that edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/13 18:09:44
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The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
No, I haven't. I searched my comments under both "Imperial Guard" and "Astra Militarum", just to see if I had, and had forgotten about it. I can't find anything. You're complaining about things others have said, not me. But enjoy others sharing in your problems, I guess.
I guess it's totally possible I've mistaken you for yet another poster who had "666" in their handle.
But my point remains:
Yours is not the only army this has happened to. Nor will it be the last. And it's not a question of "But I could do X for so many years!". GW doesn't bloody care.
Well, there are quite a few of us. There's even one who's handle is so close to mine that I sometimes confuse them with myself when I see them pop up.
But your "point" is poor. Because it shouldn't happen to any army. And gwshould "bloody care". No one should lose options, or have their models invalidated, including the Guard.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/13 18:14:38
Gadzilla666 wrote: When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns?
Putting aside the absurd Skitarii examples he attempted, the Sergeant + Lasguns thing is Kan's personal pet peeve. It's one his "Greatest Hits"*. He brings it up all the time, and has a very "If I can't get what I want, then none of you should get what you want!" attitude towards it.
And he's been singing this same tune for years.
*Alongside:
1. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus should be different armies (even though they were never intended as such, and he knows that, because the guy responsible said as much, and yet he still denies it).
2. Skitarii special weapon restrictions are all because of plasma weapons! It's all the fault of plasma weapons!
3. Points are evil, and anyone who uses them are evil (ignoring the fact that points have been an integral part of the game since before 2nd Ed came about).
4. Tournaments ruin everything for everyone.
Would you stop pressing the Kan buttons ? We'll be there for days
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
The most popular Wargame in the world made by the world's most profitable miniature company isn't going to die overnight because someone said a few mean words about their business decisions in a niche forum.
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
"You don't have to buy this - because it's no longer an option."
Not exactly seeing what the upside is here.
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
Like I said, I wish we saw a HH style solution with weapon packs, but requiring less kits isn't a bad direction.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
For years I have seen players, many of which I still see online, who balk at conversions or being "forced" to convert things. I feel like this is more GW reacting to those years of rather vocal complaints over "lol, new people are dumb".
I was talking more about the Terminator datasheet. I have no opinions on the Raptors because that is an easy fix for GW requiring an FAQ at most assuming "lightning claw" isn't on the melee wargear list for him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/13 19:16:56
Gadzilla666 wrote: When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns?
Putting aside the absurd Skitarii examples he attempted, the Sergeant + Lasguns thing is Kan's personal pet peeve. It's one his "Greatest Hits"*. He brings it up all the time, and has a very "If I can't get what I want, then none of you should get what you want!" attitude towards it.
And he's been singing this same tune for years.
*Alongside:
1. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus should be different armies (even though they were never intended as such, and he knows that, because the guy responsible said as much, and yet he still denies it).
2. Skitarii special weapon restrictions are all because of plasma weapons! It's all the fault of plasma weapons!
3. Points are evil, and anyone who uses them are evil (ignoring the fact that points have been an integral part of the game since before 2nd Ed came about).
4. Tournaments ruin everything for everyone.
It's really weird because he'll go on a tangent about Vanguard with Plasma ruined Rangers taking Plasma even though Rangers with Plasma weren't taken because any real fluff bunny would've taken them with three Arqs, which was consequently ruined.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
For years I have seen players, many of which I still see online, who balk at conversions or being "forced" to convert things. I feel like this is more GW reacting to those years of rather vocal complaints over "lol, new people are dumb".
I was talking more about the Terminator datasheet. I have no opinions on the Raptors because that is an easy fix for GW requiring an FAQ at most assuming "lightning claw" isn't on the melee wargear list for him.
One of the ironies of the terminator lightning claw argument is that there were zero lightning claws in the previous chaos terminator kit. You had to buy the terminator lord 5 times over to get enough lightning claws for your terminators.
Here's the thing: "Build only what's in the box" is an issue that affects Chaos more than any other faction. We've seen a few changes with a handful of other factions, like Admech, but Chaos Marines and Death Guard have lost whole unit builds that people had spent money and time converting and buying bits for.
On the whole, I do think that needing to buy extra kits to build a unit is a *bad* thing. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to do something like this to make a unit.
The flip side of that coin is that THE CHAOS UNITS SHOULD HAVE THESE BITS IN THE KIT.
But, that in and of itself is wishful thinking. To get enough lightning claws and other weapons in the Chaos Terminator kit, or to get more into the Plague Marines or Blightlord Terminators kit, would require a whole extra sprue of material, which means the price of the kit would be jacked up 50%. Chaos Terminators would be 80-90 USD while regular Space Marine Terminators would remain around 50-60. That in and of itself would drive a whole other slew of arguments.
So where's the happy medium? Well, honestly, something like what GW is doing with Kill Team or Horus Heresy.
In Kill Team, you have the option of buying Pathfinders for 42 dollars, or the Kill Team Pathfinders with their extra sprue for 55 dollars. If you want those extra bits, you can get them, but you're not forced to.
Alternatively, sell weapon and upgrade packs separately. It swells the 3rd party bits market, but at the same time it gives players much more control over what they want to build and play.
And at the heart of all of this argument is this: Many players want CONTROL over what they build and play, and every step that GW takes to strip away that control is seen as a dire offense. This is why Chaos players that have been around long enough are particularly grumpy: we went from 3.5ed Codex where we had control over every little aspect of our chaos marines, to having all of that steadily stripped, blandified, and removed edition after edition, in exchange for dinobots.
So, this latest rendition of GW stripping away control and not giving Chaos players ways to build their choice units, or even use the choice units that they've been using for years, makes a lot of people really grumpy.
Will we get some sort of happy medium situation in the future? Maybe, but I doubt it. There's gotta be demand for it, and running circles on dakkadakka =/= demand.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
In a (minor) defense of blood reaper, I think he just forgot to include a "/s" at the end of his post to indicate sarcasm - I doubt he actually holds those views.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
For years I have seen players, many of which I still see online, who balk at conversions or being "forced" to convert things. I feel like this is more GW reacting to those years of rather vocal complaints over "lol, new people are dumb".
I was talking more about the Terminator datasheet. I have no opinions on the Raptors because that is an easy fix for GW requiring an FAQ at most assuming "lightning claw" isn't on the melee wargear list for him.
One of the ironies of the terminator lightning claw argument is that there were zero lightning claws in the previous chaos terminator kit. You had to buy the terminator lord 5 times over to get enough lightning claws for your terminators.
Here's the thing: "Build only what's in the box" is an issue that affects Chaos more than any other faction. We've seen a few changes with a handful of other factions, like Admech, but Chaos Marines and Death Guard have lost whole unit builds that people had spent money and time converting and buying bits for.
On the whole, I do think that needing to buy extra kits to build a unit is a *bad* thing. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to do something like this to make a unit.
The flip side of that coin is that THE CHAOS UNITS SHOULD HAVE THESE BITS IN THE KIT.
But, that in and of itself is wishful thinking. To get enough lightning claws and other weapons in the Chaos Terminator kit, or to get more into the Plague Marines or Blightlord Terminators kit, would require a whole extra sprue of material, which means the price of the kit would be jacked up 50%. Chaos Terminators would be 80-90 USD while regular Space Marine Terminators would remain around 50-60. That in and of itself would drive a whole other slew of arguments.
So where's the happy medium? Well, honestly, something like what GW is doing with Kill Team or Horus Heresy.
In Kill Team, you have the option of buying Pathfinders for 42 dollars, or the Kill Team Pathfinders with their extra sprue for 55 dollars. If you want those extra bits, you can get them, but you're not forced to.
Alternatively, sell weapon and upgrade packs separately. It swells the 3rd party bits market, but at the same time it gives players much more control over what they want to build and play.
And at the heart of all of this argument is this: Many players want CONTROL over what they build and play, and every step that GW takes to strip away that control is seen as a dire offense. This is why Chaos players that have been around long enough are particularly grumpy: we went from 3.5ed Codex where we had control over every little aspect of our chaos marines, to having all of that steadily stripped, blandified, and removed edition after edition, in exchange for dinobots.
So, this latest rendition of GW stripping away control and not giving Chaos players ways to build their choice units, or even use the choice units that they've been using for years, makes a lot of people really grumpy.
Will we get some sort of happy medium situation in the future? Maybe, but I doubt it. There's gotta be demand for it, and running circles on dakkadakka =/= demand.
You mention the 'happy medium' in passing: the HH packs o' guns (and Necromunda as well). Its just... its great for those games, but it doesn't matter once options are stripped out of the codex itself.
Its honestly bafflingly shortsighted to do these cutbacks NOW, a mere month or two before piles of weapons become easily available. (and once HH does assault marines, I suspect there will be a round of close combat weapon packs as well)
Either the 30k and 40k folks don't talk to each other, or someone's planning at cross-purposes. (And that's before we get into things like Relic terminators, contemptors and now sicarans not being in the chaos codex, despite the first two being in the loyalist book and the new Sicaran being specifically mentioned as cross-game. Sell your crap to your willing audience, GW!)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/13 19:55:15
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
No, the thing people are "crying about" is that invalidating models that people have already bought/built/painted is worse.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
No, the thing people are "crying about" is that invalidating models that people have already bought/built/painted is worse.
Also when people DID complain about it, they were rightfully pointed to 3rd parties that could help alleviate the weapon issue. GW trying to cut them out as usual.
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
No, the thing people are "crying about" is that invalidating models that people have already bought/built/painted is worse.
Also when people DID complain about it, they were rightfully pointed to 3rd parties that could help alleviate the weapon issue. GW trying to cut them out as usual.
I have mixed feelings about this sort of thing, but honestly I really don't want the Chaos Space Marine codex rumors thread to head down this jumbled and messy argument.
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
No, the thing people are "crying about" is that invalidating models that people have already bought/built/painted is worse.
Also when people DID complain about it, they were rightfully pointed to 3rd parties that could help alleviate the weapon issue. GW trying to cut them out as usual.
I have mixed feelings about this sort of thing, but honestly I really don't want the Chaos Space Marine codex rumors thread to head down this jumbled and messy argument.
The argument has everything to do with the codex and how GW has continued to release them. Like it or not, it's gonna be a central problem and topic unless they change.
Memnoch wrote: So tbis seems to have gotten messy and negative.
Is there anything exciting about the ciodex rumours so far to look forward to? (Other than getting Daemons back)
So far it's just a matter of waiting.
I spotted a picture of this month's White Dwarf. The last page says: "Next Issue: World Eaters update!"
This would be the update to allow people to take Khorne Berzerkers and such until they get their own Codex. That White Dwarf would be due out mid-June.
GW has put out a few White Dwarfs with rules ahead of codex releases (Craftworld: Altansar, ahead of the Aeldari Codex).
In other words, that puts the timeframe of the Codex release anywhere between the 28th of May at the earliest, to the end of June.
Memnoch wrote: So tbis seems to have gotten messy and negative.
Is there anything exciting about the ciodex rumours so far to look forward to? (Other than getting Daemons back)
So far it's just a matter of waiting.
I spotted a picture of this month's White Dwarf. The last page says: "Next Issue: World Eaters update!"
This would be the update to allow people to take Khorne Berzerkers and such until they get their own Codex. That White Dwarf would be due out mid-June.
GW has put out a few White Dwarfs with rules ahead of codex releases (Craftworld: Altansar, ahead of the Aeldari Codex).
In other words, that puts the timeframe of the Codex release anywhere between the 28th of May at the earliest, to the end of June.
Considering that we've just gone an entire week without any "hype", I'd say it's likely to be later rather than sooner. Especially since all of the current hype is being directed at HH. CSM may be after HH after all.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: It really is just that simple. You take your base model for your codex and give it all three weapon options then you look at the average damage that they do vs the same target (if you want you can use more than one target and get more data points). Then you compare the results. After that you find out that weapon A is 2 times more effective than weapon B but only 3/4 as effective vs weapon C. Make weapon A cost a arbitrary point cost, make weapon B half that cost and weapon C 1/3 more. There you have it all 3 weapon options are now balanced.
The problem GW has is that they want to make weapon costs the same across various Codices that don't use the same base model stats (SM vs IG vs GK). So that the cost doesn't reflect the difference in effectiveness in each codex.
But it's not that simple, a melta gun is more effective against a vehicle, a plasma gun is more effective against meq and flamer against geq, but the amount of damage done alone doesn't reflect the different ranges of the weapons, different special rules and risks etc.
All of this balanced inside of a generally 10 point window, it isn't going to be perfect and there will be a "best" option overall.
Flamer kills a lot of grunt infantry. Grunts are cheap and so the flamer will be the cheapest upgrade.
Plasma gun kills elite infantry and can pose a threat to vehicles/monsters. As elite infanty is the most encountered unit in the game this weapon will be the most costly of the three.
Meltagun poses the biggest threat to vehicles/monsters which are also the most costly models. However vehicles are usually present in low numbers in 40k battles and therefore the meltagun is cheaper than the plasma gun.
There may be exceptions to the above. During 3rd there were rules for Deathworld Jungle worlds which made life for vehicles very difficult as LOS was heavily restricted and every move forced the vehicle to pass terrain tests. So there weren´t much vehicles to be found and another effect was that grunts could move with less danger of being obliterated by long range firepower thus increasing the likelihood of fielding those units. This meant flamer weapons went up in costs as they were perfect for attacking infantry on a board where almost everywhere cover saves were being available.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
99% sure he was being sarcastic, and saying that new players are plenty smart enough to figure that stuff out (which of course they are, they figure out the actual rules after all).
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
"You don't have to buy this - because it's no longer an option."
Not exactly seeing what the upside is here.
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
Like I said, I wish we saw a HH style solution with weapon packs, but requiring less kits isn't a bad direction.
No, that was never the consensus. Sure a few people cried about it, but there's always someone doing that about anything, even to the point of things that aren't even real (as Kan has so kindly demonstrated). What large numbers of people had a problem with was kits where every model could have X weapon and there was only 1 or even 0 of that weapon included. This almost always coincided with new weapons being introduced, so the impression was that it was made more difficult to use the classic options in order to add in new ones that weren't needed or asked for. What people have always wanted is what they are doing with HH now; a base kit with separately-purchasable upgrade kits to provide the special options needed. Alternatively a 5-man squad having 2 of each special weapon is generally regarded as a decent compromise, as two boxes then gives two units that each have 4 of a certain weapon while the champion has an alternate loadout.
And that really is the key point that GW seems to be missing here; people will run a variety of weapons but very rarely is it in the form of 1 of each on the same unit. Instead it will be one squad with max flamers, another with max plasma, another kitted out for melee, etc. That way when the person buys multiple boxes and swaps the bits between them they are able to do that with no wasted purchase. And outside of the competitive sphere, which is a small minority of players, that was very common to see.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/13 21:32:06
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
Don´t be too sensitive. Dakka dakka is inhabited by grognards and the young folk hang out on social media. Chances are rather slim that those comments hurt anybody. Another thing the above poster forgot is the ability to build your own terrain. This perk has been sadly lost to a lot of juves.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
Don´t be too sensitive. Dakka dakka is inhabited by grognards and the young folk hang out on social media. Chances are rather slim that those comments hurt anybody. Another thing the above poster forgot is the ability to build your own terrain. This perk has been sadly lost to a lot of juves.
We're all very impressed by your ability to glue sand to insulation foam. Truly a master of the arts.
Also, genius, internet forums are a form social media.
I love how proud people are about buying incomplete kits back in the day. "I made my own lasplas, obviously because I'm so awesome and creative! I totally didn't just let GW trick me into keeping lascannon and plasma bits off the secondary market!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/13 22:10:28
is that invalidating models that people have already bought/built/painted is worse.
