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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just

Do you mean this one?

Spoiler:

Er, no Daed. According to the leaked playtest doc, each Legion/Renegade warband had a "Super Doctrine" that kicked in when in certain stages of Let the Galaxy Burn. Similar to how loyalist Super Doctrines work. Night Lords, for example, were supposed to get +1 to wound anything L6 or less or below half strength with melee weapons, pistols, or assault weapons in "Wanton Slaughter".

Erm... aren't a lot here a bit too down on the leaks?

From the leaks, we did gain some stuff. I would wait for the codex to be fully out with all the rules, make some lists, play a few games before we rush to condemn the codex.

Some stuff we gained.

1. Stronger stats: All our marines gained 1W, 1 attack at least. Some gained more.

2. More Psykers from that tome. 20 points to get that balefire tome to upgrade someone in a squad to a psyker. We are the only army that just needs to pay 100 more points in order to get 5 base psykers. That .... is amazing. Even just spamming smites, that is 5d3 mortal wounds. Not to mention all the psychic options outside of smite including secondaries and stuff. Nobody seems to be excited about this?

3. Abaddon is an absolute unit. People lost their minds when Morvenn Vahl came out. Abaddon is even stronger. If he is coming at you with friends at his side and you can't deal with him, he will not only punch a hole in your lines, he will murder everything he touches. (Not to mention the awesome buffs he gives out).

4. Our super doctrine "Let the galaxy burn". We didn't have this. Now, we get exploding hits on 6s on all sorts of types of guns, melee, etc. And that's a huge boost to damage output. They even added 2 automatic hits to our flamers because they can't roll for exploding hits.

5. Our psychic list is amazing. Not just our regular psychic list. Have you seen the Malefic discipline? There are at least 4 psychic on that discipline that I want to have almost every game.

6. Our new Marks. I don't see anyone talk about the new marks here. The new marks alone can make for different lists. Plus... if we want to min max, and run different units with different marks... its going to be very powerful. Consider... Mark of Tzeentch makes the first failed save become zero every turn. That's a massive durability boost. You can throw this on any long high point target that might attract melta gun or lascannon fire and it will reduce the first failed save to zero. Put this on Obliterators, or terminators, or even Havocs sitting in cover. And you have other marks doing different things. Khorne marks hit so hard, slanaash marks fights first. So put it all together... Heavy support units with Tzeentch marks, power combat units up front fighting with slanaash or khorne marks. Nurgle marks on back objective holder units.

There are probably more I missed out. But I already listed six here. So, can we stop with all the negativity and doom and gloom please?

One last thing, can we take the discussion about GW making weapon/other rules as per models in the box to a separate thread. This is a trend GW has been moving towards over the entire edition. Its not limited to just our CSM codex.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Erm... aren't a lot here a bit too down on the leaks?

From the leaks, we did gain some stuff. I would wait for the codex to be fully out with all the rules, make some lists, play a few games before we rush to condemn the codex.

Some stuff we gained.

1. Stronger stats: All our marines gained 1W, 1 attack at least. Some gained more.

2. More Psykers from that tome. 20 points to get that balefire tome to upgrade someone in a squad to a psyker. We are the only army that just needs to pay 100 more points in order to get 5 base psykers. That .... is amazing. Even just spamming smites, that is 5d3 mortal wounds. Not to mention all the psychic options outside of smite including secondaries and stuff. Nobody seems to be excited about this?

3. Abaddon is an absolute unit. People lost their minds when Morvenn Vahl came out. Abaddon is even stronger. If he is coming at you with friends at his side and you can't deal with him, he will not only punch a hole in your lines, he will murder everything he touches. (Not to mention the awesome buffs he gives out).

4. Our super doctrine "Let the galaxy burn". We didn't have this. Now, we get exploding hits on 6s on all sorts of types of guns, melee, etc. And that's a huge boost to damage output. They even added 2 automatic hits to our flamers because they can't roll for exploding hits.

5. Our psychic list is amazing. Not just our regular psychic list. Have you seen the Malefic discipline? There are at least 4 psychic on that discipline that I want to have almost every game.

6. Our new Marks. I don't see anyone talk about the new marks here. The new marks alone can make for different lists. Plus... if we want to min max, and run different units with different marks... its going to be very powerful. Consider... Mark of Tzeentch makes the first failed save become zero every turn. That's a massive durability boost. You can throw this on any long high point target that might attract melta gun or lascannon fire and it will reduce the first failed save to zero. Put this on Obliterators, or terminators, or even Havocs sitting in cover. And you have other marks doing different things. Khorne marks hit so hard, slanaash marks fights first. So put it all together... Heavy support units with Tzeentch marks, power combat units up front fighting with slanaash or khorne marks. Nurgle marks on back objective holder units.

There are probably more I missed out. But I already listed six here. So, can we stop with all the negativity and doom and gloom please?

One last thing, can we take the discussion about GW making weapon/other rules as per models in the box to a separate thread. This is a trend GW has been moving towards over the entire edition. Its not limited to just our CSM codex.

1) This would've been exciting three years ago.
As-is, GW published "Get you by" PDFs for Dark Angels, Space Wolves, all those special Loyalist Marines... But took three years to give CSM two wounds. The bonus attacks are nice, admittedly, but the second wound? Too late.

2) That's around 6 mortal wounds on average. Unfocused mortal wounds to boot.

3) Yeah, Abaddon is great! What if I don't run Black Legion?

4) That's the CSM Doctrine, not Super Doctrine. And compared to Loyalists... It's a flat 25% boost (33% if suffering from a -1 hit penalty, 20% if hitting on a 2+) as compared to the more conditional but often superior bonus AP.
For reference, going from a 2+ to a 3+ doubles damage. 3+ to 4+, 50% more. 4+ to 5+, 33% more. About the only targets that the CSM Doctrine beats the Loyalist version would be models that ignore all the AP.

5) I haven't seen the disciplines-so no comment.

6) The Marks are decent, I'll grant that.

But here's the thing-even if CSM end up being tournament-stompingly powerful, the Codex is STILL garbage. It's designed badly. It's inconsistent. It lacks customization. It's a complete mess.

Since it's "too late" for our second wound I guess we should just return it then.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Since it's "too late" for our second wound I guess we should just return it then.

Too late for it to be considered good.

Staying at one wound would be even worse.

 JNAProductions wrote:


3) Yeah, Abaddon is great! What if I don't run Black Legion?

Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty

 GaroRobe wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


3) Yeah, Abaddon is great! What if I don't run Black Legion?

Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty

True-but he's still out of place in a non-BL army.
Hell, even in a Black Legion army, it stinks to have to take a unique character.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Since it's "too late" for our second wound I guess we should just return it then.

Too late for it to be considered good.

Staying at one wound would be even worse.

I don't know about that. In a game where multi-damage is the meta having a single wound, and being cheaper, isn't a bad thing.

Now that aside, while I won't try and tell people how to feel about the book I will say that we seem to be straying into hyperbole about the book. Yes, the book doesn't look like it'll be the next Drukhari codex, but at the same time the faction has definitely gotten a buff in terms of general power output. I admit my expectations are lower for what this codex will bring as a Night Lords player though so like I said: I am not trying to tell people how to feel about this update.

And since some people haven't seen them: psychic powers and prayers:

Source: https://imgur.com/a/1IFLTSw

Eldenfirefly wrote:
From the leaks, we did gain some stuff. I would wait for the codex to be fully out with all the rules, make some lists, play a few games before we rush to condemn the codex.

It's not about power. It's never been about power. Ever since this travesty birthed its way into the world, it's been about the ever-shrinking levels of options and thematic customisability that Chaos loses with each and every book.

It started with our Daemons, and over time we've lost more and more. Now they've come for our Cult Troops (among other things) and they've given us a bevvy of massively inconsistent wargear rules.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
One last thing, can we take the discussion about GW making weapon/other rules as per models in the box to a separate thread. This is a trend GW has been moving towards over the entire edition. Its not limited to just our CSM codex

But it's never been so egregious as in this Chaos Codex, because it's never been applied with such an appalling level of inconsistency.

To quote a post from earlier in this thread (apologies to the person who posted it, I lost the name):

Depending on datasheet, a chainaxe might be a chainaxe, heavy chainaxe, tainted chainaxe, or an accursed weapon.
Depending on datasheet, a power weapon might be a power-sword/axe/maul, or it might be an accursed weapon.
Depending on datasheet, a powerfist might be a powerfist, or it might be an accursed weapon.
Depending on datasheet, you might have access to special and/or heavy weapons - sometimes you can freely pick, other times you cannot take duplicates.

So no, it doesn't belong in a different thread. No, just because it's a trend right now doesn't make it something not worth discussing here. It's bad in other books. It's worse here.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just

Do you mean this one?

Spoiler:

Er, no Daed. According to the leaked playtest doc, each Legion/Renegade warband had a "Super Doctrine" that kicked in when in certain stages of Let the Galaxy Burn. Similar to how loyalist Super Doctrines work. Night Lords, for example, were supposed to get +1 to wound anything L6 or less or below half strength with melee weapons, pistols, or assault weapons in "Wanton Slaughter".

Oh. See. I kicked caffeine and shouldn't have. 0/3 today!

 JNAProductions wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


3) Yeah, Abaddon is great! What if I don't run Black Legion?

Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty

True-but he's still out of place in a non-BL army.
Hell, even in a Black Legion army, it stinks to have to take a unique character.

Give him rules for shooting Talos and he'll fit into a NL army.

 GaroRobe wrote:
Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty

A lot of us don't like taking special characters. A lot of us prefer to our Our Dudes™ rather than Someone Else's Dudes™ in their army. The more options GW removes, the harder that becomes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty

A lot of us don't like taking special characters. A lot of us prefer to our Our Dudes™ rather than Someone Else's Dudes™ in their army. The more options GW removes, the harder that becomes.

I miss the days when named characters weren't subfaction locked so they could be used as the rules for your dude while you kitbash or convert the model proper.

Basically like the named characters were archetypes.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty

A lot of us don't like taking special characters. A lot of us prefer to our Our Dudes™ rather than Someone Else's Dudes™ in their army. The more options GW removes, the harder that becomes.

I miss the days when named characters weren't subfaction locked so they could be used as the rules for your dude while you kitbash or convert the model proper.

Basically like the named characters were archetypes.

Plus he looks like he'll be bonkers good. And not the kind of good that feels good either for the opponent or myself.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty

A lot of us don't like taking special characters. A lot of us prefer to our Our Dudes™ rather than Someone Else's Dudes™ in their army. The more options GW removes, the harder that becomes.

I miss the days when named characters weren't subfaction locked so they could be used as the rules for your dude while you kitbash or convert the model proper.

Basically like the named characters were archetypes.

Plus he looks like he'll be bonkers good. And not the kind of good that feels good either for the opponent or myself.

I mean for 300 points you kind of hope he'd be that good.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty

A lot of us don't like taking special characters. A lot of us prefer to our Our Dudes™ rather than Someone Else's Dudes™ in their army. The more options GW removes, the harder that becomes.

And now GW is limiting CP and Warlord Traits and Relics because.......reasons!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Since it's "too late" for our second wound I guess we should just return it then.

Too late for it to be considered good.

Staying at one wound would be even worse.

I gotta disagree. I'd rather have an extra attack and be absurdly cheap (we were already almost at Sister levels after all) than what has happened now.

Also if you want to take an allied Dreadblade you're out of luck with Abaddon RAW since they both get Agents fo Chaos.
Definitely not RAI, but since when has Games Workshop ever been able to properly proofread their rules...

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Plus he looks like he'll be bonkers good. And not the kind of good that feels good either for the opponent or myself.

I mean for 300 points you kind of hope he'd be that good.

Yeah but I get what Dread is saying: He looks good, like 'take in every list ever' good. Like a new Trajann.

That's unhealthy.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Erm... aren't a lot here a bit too down on the leaks?

I'm not really down. Just annoyed by some of the bizarre choices.

I like the marks. I like the tome. I like the explosions. Obliterators are solid. Lots of blanks on other stuff still so no way to judge VC, Discolord, Havoks, traits, strats, etc.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Plus he looks like he'll be bonkers good. And not the kind of good that feels good either for the opponent or myself.

I mean for 300 points you kind of hope he'd be that good.

Yeah but I get what Dread is saying: He looks good, like 'take in every list ever' good. Like a new Trajann.

That's unhealthy.

Yep. With everything that entails: omnipresence on the competitive scene, lack of list diversity in tournament, imitation on the local scene by competitive minded folks, resentment from other players toward people runing CSM, heavy-handed nerfs overcorrecting from GW much too late, etc...

Just speculating of course. Might be worrying for nothing

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Spoiler:

Erm... aren't a lot here a bit too down on the leaks?

From the leaks, we did gain some stuff. I would wait for the codex to be fully out with all the rules, make some lists, play a few games before we rush to condemn the codex.

Some stuff we gained.

1. Stronger stats: All our marines gained 1W, 1 attack at least. Some gained more.

2. More Psykers from that tome. 20 points to get that balefire tome to upgrade someone in a squad to a psyker. We are the only army that just needs to pay 100 more points in order to get 5 base psykers. That .... is amazing. Even just spamming smites, that is 5d3 mortal wounds. Not to mention all the psychic options outside of smite including secondaries and stuff. Nobody seems to be excited about this?

3. Abaddon is an absolute unit. People lost their minds when Morvenn Vahl came out. Abaddon is even stronger. If he is coming at you with friends at his side and you can't deal with him, he will not only punch a hole in your lines, he will murder everything he touches. (Not to mention the awesome buffs he gives out).

4. Our super doctrine "Let the galaxy burn". We didn't have this. Now, we get exploding hits on 6s on all sorts of types of guns, melee, etc. And that's a huge boost to damage output. They even added 2 automatic hits to our flamers because they can't roll for exploding hits.

5. Our psychic list is amazing. Not just our regular psychic list. Have you seen the Malefic discipline? There are at least 4 psychic on that discipline that I want to have almost every game.

6. Our new Marks. I don't see anyone talk about the new marks here. The new marks alone can make for different lists. Plus... if we want to min max, and run different units with different marks... its going to be very powerful. Consider... Mark of Tzeentch makes the first failed save become zero every turn. That's a massive durability boost. You can throw this on any long high point target that might attract melta gun or lascannon fire and it will reduce the first failed save to zero. Put this on Obliterators, or terminators, or even Havocs sitting in cover. And you have other marks doing different things. Khorne marks hit so hard, slanaash marks fights first. So put it all together... Heavy support units with Tzeentch marks, power combat units up front fighting with slanaash or khorne marks. Nurgle marks on back objective holder units.

There are probably more I missed out. But I already listed six here. So, can we stop with all the negativity and doom and gloom please?

One last thing, can we take the discussion about GW making weapon/other rules as per models in the box to a separate thread. This is a trend GW has been moving towards over the entire edition. Its not limited to just our CSM codex.

1: Yes, nice. Took them damned well long enough though.

2:Yeah, sure. Great. All of the Legions are Thousand Sons now. Pretty weird that making one model a psyker used to be a thing for Chosen. But, hey! They get to pick their own custom tra........ehhhh, whoops. Never mind. We got baby Sorcerers for CSM squads, instead of Veteran Skills for our Veterans.

3:Ok, without even getting into whether or not people who play Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, etc want a Black Legion character in their armies, or even want to run a named character in the first place, you do realize how bad it is for a faction to hinge on a single unit, right? One swing of the Nerf Bat from gw and......blam. He's useless. Overpriced. Gw have no qualms about cranking a unit's price up by more than 50% in a single CA. Trust me.

4: JNAPRODUCTIONS covered this one pretty well from a competitive standpoint, but thematically it's also pretty insulting. The best that they could come up with for CSM was a more random (because Chaos = random. Hur dur. Thanks gw /s) version of loyalist rules? That shows how little thought went into this mess.

5: Warpime, Diabolic Strength, and all 3 of the God aligned powers got nerfed. Yay. /s

6: Having Marks that actually do something is nice. Glad they finally managed to work that out.

And no, we're not going to stop complaining about the idiotic and inconsistent ways that they've screwed up our units options. The fact that they've done it to other factions only makes it WORSE. They need to stop. Period.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Since it's "too late" for our second wound I guess we should just return it then.

Too late for it to be considered good.

Staying at one wound would be even worse.

I don't know about that. In a game where multi-damage is the meta having a single wound, and being cheaper, isn't a bad thing.

Now that aside, while I won't try and tell people how to feel about the book I will say that we seem to be straying into hyperbole about the book. Yes, the book doesn't look like it'll be the next Drukhari codex, but at the same time the faction has definitely gotten a buff in terms of general power output. I admit my expectations are lower for what this codex will bring as a Night Lords player though so like I said: I am not trying to tell people how to feel about this update.

Would you stop with this "I expect bad rules because I'm starting a Night Lords army" stuff? Night Lords don't have to have, or expect, bad rules. We had good rules in 3.5, Traitor Legions, and Faith and Fury. And I really can't understand how you can think that after seeing our HH rules.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Plus he looks like he'll be bonkers good. And not the kind of good that feels good either for the opponent or myself.

Don't get me wrong - he's awesome, but I don't think he's the game breaker people make him out to be.

He deepstrikes and moves 6" after that. Concede the flank, run chaff up to his face and don't give him bonus charge movement. Shoot the units around him and let him hold objectives on his own.

Night Lords have leadership gimmicks in a game that makes it easy to negate leadership. I keep my expectations low because of it.

HH definitely does NL better.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Don't get me wrong - he's awesome, but I don't think he's the game breaker people make him out to be.

Two men stood in the jungle, and suddenly realised that a tiger was approaching them, hunger in its eyes. One of the men started putting on a pair of very advanced sneakers.

"Umm... you're not going to outrun the tiger with those!" said the first man.
"I know that. I just need to outrun you!" said the other.

To put it another way, Dooby needn't be a "game breaker". He just has to be good enough that taking any other option in the book (outside of what you have to take due to compulsory choices) isn't worthwhile. That's the danger with a character like him. That's what makes character ubiquitous, where people bring them to every game regardless.

Hell, in our games from 9th from two weeks ago, the guy playing Custodes, who has never played Custodes with us, and doesn't even own Trajann, still brought him using Counts As. That kind of ubiquity isn't good for the game, IMO.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Night Lords have leadership gimmicks in a game that makes it easy to negate leadership. I keep my expectations low because of it.

HH definitely does NL better.

We've only been stuck with "leadership gimmicks" and nothing else from the 8th edition codex onwards. And out of 6 Warlord traits, 8 stratagems, and 6 relics in Faith and Fury, only one strategem and one relic fit that bill. They can do better. Trust me.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Don't get me wrong - he's awesome, but I don't think he's the game breaker people make him out to be.

Two men stood in the jungle, and suddenly realised that a tiger was approaching them, hunger in its eyes. One of the men started putting on a pair of very advanced sneakers.

"Umm... you're not going to outrun the tiger with those!" said the first man.
"I know that. I just need to outrun you!" said the other.

To put it another way, Dooby needn't be a "game breaker". He just has to be good enough that taking any other option in the book (outside of what you have to take due to compulsory choices) isn't worthwhile.

Only matters if you want efficiency over everything else. If I ever pick him up it'll only be for a painting project.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Night Lords have leadership gimmicks in a game that makes it easy to negate leadership. I keep my expectations low because of it.

HH definitely does NL better.

We've only been stuck with "leadership gimmicks" and nothing else from the 8th edition codex onwards. And out of 6 Warlord traits, 8 stratagems, and 6 relics in Faith and Fury, only one strategem and one relic fit that bill. They can do better. Trust me.

I'm not saying they can't do better, I'm saying I don't have my hopes up that they will do better. The train wreck that were Sisters codex updates from 5th through 7th taught me to never grt my hopes up. Play because you enjoy your army's theme or playstyle, don't play them because they're strong basically.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Night Lords have leadership gimmicks in a game that makes it easy to negate leadership. I keep my expectations low because of it.

HH definitely does NL better.

We've only been stuck with "leadership gimmicks" and nothing else from the 8th edition codex onwards. And out of 6 Warlord traits, 8 stratagems, and 6 relics in Faith and Fury, only one strategem and one relic fit that bill. They can do better. Trust me.

I'm not saying they can't do better, I'm saying I don't have my hopes up that they will do better. The train wreck that were Sisters codex updates from 5th through 7th taught me to never grt my hopes up. Play because you enjoy your army's theme or playstyle, don't play them because they're strong basically.

Ok, that's a good attitude to have. But when I started playing Night Lords 20 years ago, their playstyle was hit and run tactics (they even told you that in the codex). And then in 8th, gw said "Nah, you're SCARY! BOOH!".

And I want my old rules back. That's why I'm so interested in whether or not that "fallback + charge + shoot" custom trait survived into the codex. If it did, I can make my whole army do what only my Raptors could back then. And if Warp Talons really stop other units from falling back (which is why I want to see that datasheet)? Then game on.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Only matters if you want efficiency over everything else...

Which is precisely the context we're talking about, hence:

"Yep. With everything that entails: omnipresence on the competitive scene, lack of list diversity in tournament, imitation on the local scene by competitive minded folks, resentment from other players toward people runing CSM, heavy-handed nerfs overcorrecting from GW much too late, etc.."

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Only matters if you want efficiency over everything else...

Which is precisely the context we're talking about, hence:

"Yep. With everything that entails: omnipresence on the competitive scene, lack of list diversity in tournament, imitation on the local scene by competitive minded folks, resentment from other players toward people runing CSM, heavy-handed nerfs overcorrecting from GW much too late, etc.."

My point was that I don't think he'll be in every single CSM.

We'll see I guess. I admit I've been looking at getting one to paint in the scheme if his 2nd ed art with the red right hand, but I have no desire to run him so maybe it's just my own biases making him feel less exciting.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Only matters if you want efficiency over everything else...

Which is precisely the context we're talking about, hence:

"Yep. With everything that entails: omnipresence on the competitive scene, lack of list diversity in tournament, imitation on the local scene by competitive minded folks, resentment from other players toward people runing CSM, heavy-handed nerfs overcorrecting from GW much too late, etc.."

My point was that I don't think he'll be in every single CSM.

We'll see I guess. I admit I've been looking at getting one to paint in the scheme if his 2nd ed art with the red right hand, but I have no desire to run him so maybe it's just my own biases making him feel less exciting.

You're right, he won't be in every CSM list. He won't be in mine. But I don't go to tournaments. Sadly, GW only seems to understand how to take feedback from tournaments. They see things that are overperforming and they nerf them, sometimes very heavily and sometimes with repercussions on factions that weren't even abusing the rule (flyers, etc).

There will be tournament-level CSM lists that don't take Abaddon, because of course people will find other things to take advantage of, but that's assuming that CSM is competitive in its current iteration. Time will tell.

As a casual player, I don't like the trickle-down-effect that happens in Warhammer 40k, where one busted thing can end up ruining the experience for a lot of people going all the way down to the casual meta, and can even effect factions that the nerf or buff wasn't even intended to touch.