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drbored wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Only matters if you want efficiency over everything else...

Which is precisely the context we're talking about, hence:

"Yep. With everything that entails: omnipresence on the competitive scene, lack of list diversity in tournament, imitation on the local scene by competitive minded folks, resentment from other players toward people runing CSM, heavy-handed nerfs overcorrecting from GW much too late, etc.."

My point was that I don't think he'll be in every single CSM.

We'll see I guess. I admit I've been looking at getting one to paint in the scheme if his 2nd ed art with the red right hand, but I have no desire to run him so maybe it's just my own biases making him feel less exciting.

You're right, he won't be in every CSM list. He won't be in mine. But I don't go to tournaments. Sadly, GW only seems to understand how to take feedback from tournaments. They see things that are overperforming and they nerf them, sometimes very heavily and sometimes with repercussions on factions that weren't even abusing the rule (flyers, etc).

There will be tournament-level CSM lists that don't take Abaddon, because of course people will find other things to take advantage of, but that's assuming that CSM is competitive in its current iteration. Time will tell.

As a casual player, I don't like the trickle-down-effect that happens in Warhammer 40k, where one busted thing can end up ruining the experience for a lot of people going all the way down to the casual meta, and can even effect factions that the nerf or buff wasn't even intended to touch.

I agree GW has a problem this edition. The game revolves so much around competetive they don't even bother to run articles on the Narrative events they've been running at the US Open. No articles on narrative missions, no narrative battle reports, ect.

I don't mind that the want to make the sandbox side of the game less the face of the game if it makes it easier for people to get into the game, but to ignore it constantly? That's silly.

Bold of you people to assume the competitive focus is why we got the dataslates that we did

drbored wrote:
You're right, he won't be in every CSM list. He won't be in mine. But I don't go to tournaments. Sadly, GW only seems to understand how to take feedback from tournaments. They see things that are overperforming and they nerf them, sometimes very heavily and sometimes with repercussions on factions that weren't even abusing the rule (flyers, etc).

Exactly!

Dooby ain't going to be part of my lists, unless I'm playing some scenario where it's appropriate for him to show up.

But if he's an ubiquitous tournament pick, then this will, as you put it, have a "trickle-down" effect on the rest of the game, because this is 40k Tournament Edition and that appears to be all GW cares about, even going so far as to outright murder their highly inventive and fun "Chapter Approved" series in favour of bi-yearly tournament update documents and "Balance Dataslates" that stem from tournament results.

drbored wrote:
As a casual player, I don't like the trickle-down-effect that happens in Warhammer 40k, where one busted thing can end up ruining the experience for a lot of people going all the way down to the casual meta, and can even effect factions that the nerf or buff wasn't even intended to touch.

I'm not a fan of what's about to happen to my Tyranids because of some people in the US taking them in combos I either have never thought of or never would take (and also somewhat because GW can't write rules - I mean anyone with a brain could see the Harpy was going to be an issue, tournament or no! ). But now my Hive Tyranids, where I've never taken a "Reaper of Obliterwhatever", and my Tyranid Warriors, where I've not got a single modern Warrior model with the double boneswords/deathspitter combo (in fact most of them have the now-largely-useless quad-scythe combo), and my Maleceptor, who I've never even had a chance to use, all get to suffer points increases because of some tournament games. Cool. That's awesome.

And it'll keep happening.

I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.

Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.

Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.

Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.

So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).

 Rydria wrote:
Noise marines should be allowed to take sonic blasters for free so they are 21pts with their signature weapon.

It's absolutely crazy to me that noise marines are the same cost as Rubic Marines who get a aspiring sorcerer squad leader and vastly superior bolter for the same price.

Maybe we're paying a premium per marine because the blastmaster itself is so powerful ?

I wouldn't get to hung up on the points those will change the rules on the other hand are here for years. On the Blastmaster they probably screwed up again an forgot we could take two, they did the same with the Chaos Index as I recall and gave back after we bitched about it.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.

Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.

Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.

Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.

So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).

I can't tell if this was a serious post or not

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Voss wrote:
Shame they didn't follow through with actually releasing them. ;\


I'd give GW a lot more credit if they actually acknowledged the mess.
Instead we get articles like this, which was obviously pre-written to the point that it doesn't even acknowledge the release date they just announced.

today wrote:Plunge the galaxy into a fiery doom when Codex: Chaos Space Marines arrives for pre-order soon, and stay tuned to Warhammer-Community.com for more juicy reveals as we get closer to release day.

yesterday wrote:Everything featured will all be available to pre-order from this coming Saturday. We kick things off in the most darkly-grim corner of the grim darkness of the far future – the Eye of Terror.

This to me just reiterates they're panic-dropping the book for some reason.

i reckon they somewhere messed up the timetable, printed too early, got feedback that their new codex stinks, not necessarily from a rulesperspective but from a designperspective (which is worse, since you can buff rules and wargear / models but not fix overarching design) and are just throwing it out in the hopes that it wont cut into their sales figures.

I think the new marketing was collecting feedback, and saw the constant angry remarks about missing options in kits.

When Death Guard dropped, they got the first taste of negative feedback- they'd misunderstood and gone the wrong way (people wanted more in the kits, not to be restricted to the kit- they took it as a envy/barrier to entry issue, not a "ripoff" issue), but they were already committed to the new paradigm for the next two years. A lot of CSM players weighed in on that.

Horus Heresy shows them testing the opposite strategy- bolt-on kits.

I think they're trying to "hide" this release in their HH numbers rather thsn fess up they screwed the pooch for an entire faction

EDIT: On reflection, I'm going to guess that marketing wants to reverse course, but someone in the design studio knows that making units uniform- and the basic army building block, not the model- is how they get the community to accept power level.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.

Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.

Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.

Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.

So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).

Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:

Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.

No more jump packs, remember?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.

Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.

Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.

Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.

So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).

I can't tell if this was a serious post or not

Why isn't it a serious post?

Consider a Iron warrior's demon engine list.

A IW lord of skulls is 600 points. And then 3 more venom crawlers for another 330 points. Throw in another 3 heavy support daemon engines and you are at 1500 points at least. Put in the obligatory 3 troop choices and now you are at 1700? And then you want at least 1 MOP, maybe even two? And a lord discordant would probably work better than Abby in such a list and he is 175 points. Also, where is the synergy of Abby in such a list? He is moving up the board at 6 inches while all your daemon engines are going at least 10 inches or even 12 inches. What is he using his buffs on in such a list? a squad of CSM?

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
I only caught it just now. Music of the apocalypse wasn't deleted. It was replace with a stratagem. An EC only one at that...

Not quite, its basically the "Fueled by Sensation" EC rule from Traitor Legions. Fight after death if you haven't fought yet. Sadly, no shooting upon death.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.

Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.

Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.

Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.

So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).

I can't tell if this was a serious post or not

Why isn't it a serious post?

Consider a Iron warrior's demon engine list.

A IW lord of skulls is 600 points. And then 3 more venom crawlers for another 330 points. Throw in another 3 heavy support daemon engines and you are at 1500 points at least. Put in the obligatory 3 troop choices and now you are at 1700? And then you want at least 1 MOP, maybe even two? And a lord discordant would probably work better than Abby in such a list and he is 175 points. Also, where is the synergy of Abby in such a list? He is moving up the board at 6 inches while all your daemon engines are going at least 10 inches or even 12 inches. What is he using his buffs on in such a list? a squad of CSM?

If you're already doing a silly ass "pure daemon engine" list you're not relegated to the 3 mandatory troop choices. Just run one of the more specialized detachments. And you don't even NEED his buffs. He's already a stupid combat monster as is, and one that I'd argue is on par with Knights except more durable due to not taking more than 3 wounds per phase.

Also we haven't seen the Lord Of Skulls dataslate but $5 says it's bad.

I wouldn't pay 3CP to run a spearhead detachment when I only start with 6CP. I would rather take a 150 point "tax" and run 3 cultist squads and at least have the option to do "raise the banners" secondary if I need to.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.

Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.

Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.

Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.

So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).

Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:

Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.

No more jump packs, remember?

Daemon Prince with Wings.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list.

Again, that's not the point being made here.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.

Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.

Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.

Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.

So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).

Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:

Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.

No more jump packs, remember?

Daemon Prince with Wings.

Oh, right. I always forget about those, because I've never once considered putting one in my Night Lords in 20 years. But yeah, might work for other people.

We seem to be going in circles sometimes. I list down 6 points trying to focus on the more positive aspects on what we gained. And people say that making Abby too powerful will make it auto include for every CSM list, and that's not healthy.

So I explain why I don't think Abby is auto include in every CSM list out there.

Now you say its not the point being made here ...

I am not trying to answer every thing people say on this thread. That was never my intention to begin with. I am just trying to look at some of the more positive things we gained, instead of focusing only on massive amount of negativity I see on this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.

Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.

Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.

Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.

So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).

Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:

Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.

No more jump packs, remember?

Daemon Prince with Wings.

Oh, right. I always forget about those, because I've never once considered putting one in my Night Lords in 20 years. But yeah, might work for other people.

Well, if a flying demon prince is not for you. Haarken World Claimer also has jump packs. Maybe he will have the agent of chaos rule as well so he can fit fine in a Night Lords army. We will have to wait for his rules to come out when the new codex drops, which is soon.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I wouldn't pay 3CP to run a spearhead detachment when I only start with 6CP. I would rather take a 150 point "tax" and run 3 cultist squads and at least have the option to do "raise the banners" secondary if I need to.

You do realize we're 100% going to get the same Cultist restrictions that Death Guard and Thousand Sons get, right?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Since it's "too late" for our second wound I guess we should just return it then.

Too late for it to be considered good.

Staying at one wound would be even worse.

Oh I don't know, I got used to 12pt dudes.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
And people say that making Abby too powerful will make it auto include for every CSM list, and that's not healthy.

Did anyone actually say that? That he'd be included in every list?

The comment was about ubiquity*. If Dooby is so good that he starts to become ubiquitous in tournament lists, then that's the unhealthy part. Trajann is an ubiquitous, but that doesn't mean that everyone who plays Custodes brings him in every list.

The same applies to the so-called Master of Chaos. I wouldn't necessarily bring him. You might not necessarily bring him. But if enough of the tournament crowd do then it will have, as stated, a trickle-down effect, and not a good one.


*"But ubiquity means everywhere!" It can also mean "very common". Context is king.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, if a flying demon prince is not for you. Haarken World Claimer also has jump packs. Maybe he will have the agent of chaos rule as well so he can fit fine in a Night Lords army. We will have to wait for his rules to come out when the new codex drops, which is soon.

Something tells me that if a Daemon Prince isn't his bag, then a Black Legion character who's yet to figure out how to use his spear in melee won't be a good replacement in his Night Lords army.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.

Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.

Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.

Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.

So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).

Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:

Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.

No more jump packs, remember?

Daemon Prince with Wings.

Oh, right. I always forget about those, because I've never once considered putting one in my Night Lords in 20 years. But yeah, might work for other people.

I mean some people liked the Exalted from the books, and it's a good way to represent him.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Erm... aren't a lot here a bit too down on the leaks?

From the leaks, we did gain some stuff. I would wait for the codex to be fully out with all the rules, make some lists, play a few games before we rush to condemn the codex.

1. Wow. Still not enough.

2. Great, more MW spam is what the game needs.

3. I don't see where Abby is worth 300 points in a non BL army.

4. Wow, we get doctrines, when a 6 is rolled. That every 6th dice roll. Loyalists always get their doctrines, no matter what they roll. My dice only roll a 6 on every 10-15 rolls, so I'm very excited about that.

5. I see two amazing powers, warptime and prescience.

6. Termis and oblits can't get marks, I don't know about havoc's.

Termies can't get Marks?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Termies can't get Marks?

None of the datasheets that have leaked say the models can take Marks, so marks are likely listed somewhere else than the datasheets. We know they all cost 15 points but nothing else.

So which is it?

Is the CSM codex too OP because Abby is in it? or is it too trash because of all the complaints listed in this thread for like multiple pages? Or is it just "not the CSM codex I wanted" hence I am gonna hate it on principle?

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.

Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.

Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.

Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.

So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).

Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:

Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.

No more jump packs, remember?

Daemon Prince with Wings.

Oh, right. I always forget about those, because I've never once considered putting one in my Night Lords in 20 years. But yeah, might work for other people.

Well, if a flying demon prince is not for you. Haarken World Claimer also has jump packs. Maybe he will have the agent of chaos rule as well so he can fit fine in a Night Lords army. We will have to wait for his rules to come out when the new codex drops, which is soon.

No. I don't want a Black Legion character in my Night Lords army. Much less a Black Legion character that got into the Black Legion by defecting from the 8th Legion. Yeah, no. I want to use my Clawlord, same as I've been doing for the last 2 decades. I want to play my Guys, not their Guys

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.

Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.

Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.

Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.

So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).

Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:

Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.

No more jump packs, remember?

Daemon Prince with Wings.

Oh, right. I always forget about those, because I've never once considered putting one in my Night Lords in 20 years. But yeah, might work for other people.

I mean some people liked the Exalted from the books, and it's a good way to represent him.

Ok, good for them. But Vandred was Possessed, not a Daemon Prince. Krieg Acerbus is the Night Lords Daemon Prince that shows up in a BL novel. (Seriously Zion, read Lord of the Night. You'll dig it .)

I wouldn't be jumping to conclusions. p5freak has ork accuracy when it comes to being right about rules.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Termies can't get Marks?

None of the datasheets that have leaked say the models can take Marks, so marks are likely listed somewhere else than the datasheets. We know they all cost 15 points but nothing else.

I'm guessing that anything with CHAOS UNDIVIDED in its FACTION KEYWORDS can take a Mark. That way, you replace CHAOS UNDIVIDED with KHORNE, NURGLE, TZEENTCH, or SLAANESH. It's just a guess, though.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ok, good for them. But Vandred was Possessed, not a Daemon Prince. Krieg Acerbus is the Night Lords Daemon Prince that shows up in a BL novel. (Seriously Zion, read Lord of the Night. You'll dig it .)

I mean there is the Painted Count from the HH as well.

Either way I've got two Praetors to run as possible Chaos Lords and if the jump pack one doesn't work the Terminator one at least fits the bill.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Termies can't get Marks?

As far as the leaks go, it's strictly for Core units. Terminators SHOULD be good.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Is the CSM codex too OP because Abby is in it? or is it too trash because of all the complaints listed in this thread for like multiple pages? Or is it just "not the CSM codex I wanted" hence I am gonna hate it on principle?

Mate, if you ain't gonna listen to what people have been saying, then why bother replying in the first place?