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besides alpha legion permanently preventing opponents from scoring objectives?

ERJAK wrote:
Every chaos unit should have to roll separate D6s to determine their S, T, A, WS, BS, LD, and then roll on D100 table to determine their equipment.

Only then will you achieve TRUE chaos.

d100?

REAL Chaos players who know their LORE roll on the d1000 table!



With subtables as appropriate.



Let me know when GW finally goes back to their ROOTS!

(I all honesty I would love a video game based on the original Realms of Chaos books where after every battle your warband mutates in some random way, with each mutation painfully animated like some Pokemon evolution from hell.)

It'll be as balanced as you would expect a GW codex to be.

The issue isn't even that 20-year-old armies are being made invalid.

An army built last edition would be invalid. Jump Pack lords and sorcerers, Terminators, Chosen, Chaos Marines, and Raptors with different loadouts.

Those units are the CORE of many armies, at least in some part. And the WORST part is that it's not like there's even an alternative Chaos Lord to buy that isn't the same repackaged one from Blackstone Fortress.

It's so insane... At this point I'd take the 5th edition codex back.

Removed - rule #1 please

Oh man...can't we all get along? These are just plastic toy soldiers you know?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Night Lords getting Lightning Claws is WAAC?

I guess not. But at this point you could just use them as Warp Talons.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Night Lords getting Lightning Claws is WAAC?

I guess not. But at this point you could just use them as Warp Talons.

Are you serious?

you forget that the kit does not come with Claws
the kit comes with Talons, and to actually use Claws you need to get them from a different kit and those don't fit /s

 kodos wrote:
you forget that the kit does not come with Claws
the kit comes with Talons, and to actually use Claws you need to get them from a different kit and those don't fit /s

The fact people seriously are taking this line, despite them being called, referred to, and played as lightning claws (and described as lightning claws) since 6th ed is proof of HBMCs point that GW fans legit have this sort of 1984 'We have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia' thing.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Night Lords getting Lightning Claws is WAAC?

I guess not. But at this point you could just use them as Warp Talons.

Are you serious?

Um... why shouldn't I? Raptors and Warp Talons are both just CSM with jump packs. Sure, the latter are kind of possessed, but Night Lords are, well, Chaos Space Marines. And they always were.

Are you guys now making up imaginary counter arguments and then get angry about those arguments you made up?

You should definitely get yourself a hobby or something...

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Night Lords getting Lightning Claws is WAAC?

I guess not. But at this point you could just use them as Warp Talons.

Are you serious?

Um... why shouldn't I? Raptors and Warp Talons are both just CSM with jump packs. Sure, the latter are kind of possessed, but Night Lords are, well, Chaos Space Marines. And they always were.

yeah sure you could.
I could also run my R&H army as IG. Except that "ain't it, chief" on a whole slew of principal levels.
NVM the old metal raptor champion etc.

 blood reaper wrote:

 kodos wrote:
you forget that the kit does not come with Claws
the kit comes with Talons, and to actually use Claws you need to get them from a different kit and those don't fit /s

The fact people seriously are taking this line, despite them being called, referred to, and played as lightning claws (and described as lightning claws) since 6th ed is proof of HBMCs point that GW fans legit have this sort of 1984 'We have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia' thing.

I already said this, it actually would be funny if those players who take this seriously, would not take this over to other games as well

GW has trained their costumers well

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Night Lords getting Lightning Claws is WAAC?

I guess not. But at this point you could just use them as Warp Talons.

Are you serious?

Um... why shouldn't I? Raptors and Warp Talons are both just CSM with jump packs. Sure, the latter are kind of possessed, but Night Lords are, well, Chaos Space Marines. And they always were.

yeah sure you could.
I could also run my R&H army as IG. Except that "ain't it, chief" on a whole slew of principal levels.
NVM the old metal raptor champion etc.

Yeah, an old model. What else? What are those 'principal levels'?

kodos wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 kodos wrote:
you forget that the kit does not come with Claws
the kit comes with Talons, and to actually use Claws you need to get them from a different kit and those don't fit /s

The fact people seriously are taking this line, despite them being called, referred to, and played as lightning claws (and described as lightning claws) since 6th ed is proof of HBMCs point that GW fans legit have this sort of 1984 'We have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia' thing.

I already said this, it actually would be funny if those players who take this seriously, would not take this over to other games as well

GW has trained their costumers well

WTF! I played GSC and Mechanicus for years without a codex (GSC since 2nd edition when they had a list, AM since 3rd). I just adapted. I wasn't happy with the situation, sure. I took pauses or played other games.

And here comes a self-righteous dork telling me I'm in some kind of cult. Get off of your high horse, snob.

I mean I think he's specifically talking about the people who now deny Warp Talons ever had lightning claws, and that lightning claws do not exist in the CSM army.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Every chaos unit should have to roll separate D6s to determine their S, T, A, WS, BS, LD, and then roll on D100 table to determine their equipment.

Only then will you achieve TRUE chaos.

d100?

REAL Chaos players who know their LORE roll on the d1000 table!

Spoiler:

With subtables as appropriate.

Spoiler:

Let me know when GW finally goes back to their ROOTS!

(I all honesty I would love a video game based on the original Realms of Chaos books where after every battle your warband mutates in some random way, with each mutation painfully animated like some Pokemon evolution from hell.)

To be fair that d1000 table has only about 120 different results.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Spoiler:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Night Lords getting Lightning Claws is WAAC?

I guess not. But at this point you could just use them as Warp Talons.

Are you serious?

Um... why shouldn't I? Raptors and Warp Talons are both just CSM with jump packs. Sure, the latter are kind of possessed, but Night Lords are, well, Chaos Space Marines. And they always were.

yeah sure you could.
I could also run my R&H army as IG. Except that "ain't it, chief" on a whole slew of principal levels.
NVM the old metal raptor champion etc.

Yeah, an old model. What else? What are those 'principal levels'?

kodos wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 kodos wrote:
you forget that the kit does not come with Claws
the kit comes with Talons, and to actually use Claws you need to get them from a different kit and those don't fit /s

The fact people seriously are taking this line, despite them being called, referred to, and played as lightning claws (and described as lightning claws) since 6th ed is proof of HBMCs point that GW fans legit have this sort of 1984 'We have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia' thing.

I already said this, it actually would be funny if those players who take this seriously, would not take this over to other games as well

GW has trained their costumers well

WTF! I played GSC and Mechanicus for years without a codex (GSC since 2nd edition when they had a list, AM since 3rd). I just adapted. I wasn't happy with the situation, sure. I took pauses or played other games.

And here comes a self-righteous dork telling me I'm in some kind of cult. Get off of your high horse, snob.

See that underlined part. That is the principal in question, the fact that GSC got treatd the way it did and couldn't be represented in an effective way is preciscly that, same with AM which to this day similiar to CSM suffer from horrifically one-dimensional uncustomizable and even unfluffy ruleset not fit for the army in question, compared especially to iterations earlier. If a dex fails in such a fundamental design level then it is against the principals in question.

The Raptor champ without lightning claws is just a symptom of such and a minor case, the whole incoming csm dex is more than likely that, except it isn't even consistent with newer versions and iterations aswell. IoW it is unprincipled garbage in questions of design and faction identity.

 blood reaper wrote:
I mean I think he's specifically talking about the people who now deny Warp Talons ever had lightning claws, and that lightning claws do not exist in the CSM army.

by his reaction, that he takes it personal what we are talking about, I am not sure if he is not one of them

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Every chaos unit should have to roll separate D6s to determine their S, T, A, WS, BS, LD, and then roll on D100 table to determine their equipment.

Only then will you achieve TRUE chaos.

d100?

REAL Chaos players who know their LORE roll on the d1000 table!

Spoiler:

With subtables as appropriate.

Spoiler:

Let me know when GW finally goes back to their ROOTS!

(I all honesty I would love a video game based on the original Realms of Chaos books where after every battle your warband mutates in some random way, with each mutation painfully animated like some Pokemon evolution from hell.)

To be fair that d1000 table has only about 120 different results.

"I was promised a thousand possibilities and all I got was this stupid tentacle!"

It's a shame GW doesn't do anything with the many and varied mutations Chaos can bestow anymore. I guess it's a little sadder now that Necromunda got vehicle design rules and showed that somewhere in GW, some of that old hobby spirit is still alive. So I'm going to agree, if we can't have that in miniature form anymore, it would be great to see as a video game.

 Grimskul wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That's how GW thinks it works. After all, look at their Havoc squads where they rolled dice to see what weapons they'd equip everyone with!

That's just Games Workshop's "Everything is Equally Effective and Valid" mentality shining through. It's been that way for literal decades when it comes to Devastator squads (and their ilk). They used to write tactics articles and state that Dev Squads with 4 different heavy weapons were the best.

Hold on now, they clearly told us that they have elite playtesters so it's the most balanced edition ever thanks to their patented "Playtested" TM technology. /s

You got the trademarked term wrong. They have highly trained, top Citadel(TM) miniatures collectors who FineTest(TM) the new releases using Games Workshop(TM)'s patented FinePlay(TM) methodology.

I enjoy that people have moved on from legitimate reasons to be angry, tried to have other discourse and somehow just started cannibalising each other.

 blood reaper wrote:

Also out of pure desperation we may as well try the Eldar thing and spam GW with emails respectfully asking they change the options.

community@gwplc.com

CustServ@gwplc.com

40kFAQ@gwplc.com

Quoting this for emphasis.

Constructive dialogue can result in positive change. There have been multiple instances in recent years of GW changing tack following coordinated community feedback.

Of course that didn't happen every time, but the odds are infinitely better than howling into Dakka Dakka threads for eternity.

Dudeface wrote:
I enjoy that people have moved on from legitimate reasons to be angry, tried to have other discourse and somehow just started cannibalising each other.

One of the problem is that there's basically nothing of value to discuss.

We have all the information (and it's bad, to say the least).

There's been like one positive (the Land Raider improvements) and unfortunately, everyone then realised "well there's a high chance this positive is going to be marred by the typical GW issues" (i.e., these benefits not appearing in other codexes). One particularly annoying person then came into the thread, made the stupidest statements imaginable (Lightning Claws? You fething WAAC bastard!) and then people legitimately began trying to argue that lightning claws were not in the Raptor box in some kind of bizarre 1984 esque re-writing of history.

Yeah I think now the disappointment is kinda out there in the wild now, might as well draw a line under it to some degree and figure out what the book can or does do, what lists people might like, what combos there are etc.

Agree that fi anyone is that annoyed, GW's email addresses are openly available to vent at.

Dudeface wrote:
I enjoy that people have moved on from legitimate reasons to be angry, tried to have other discourse and somehow just started cannibalising each other.

Well look at you there on your high horse, so above the fray.

I don't think there's much point in E-mailing GW about a Codex that isn't out yet...

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I enjoy that people have moved on from legitimate reasons to be angry, tried to have other discourse and somehow just started cannibalising each other.

Well look at you there on your high horse, so above the fray. Get back in the gutter, swine.

GIVE ME ALL THE SALT!!!!!

I don't like how unstable a game 40k has become. I could tear about models to rebuild them to match the new codex rules but there is a solid chance that all the stuff that is missing will just get put back in for the next codex. GW can't keep its codex design philosophy for longer than 30 seconds so who knows what it will be like in the next book.
Not in kit, not in rules has not even been applied to half of the 9th armies. Just a group of them likely designed at about the same time before someone changed their mind. Then again most codexes seem to have not in kit, not in rules randomly applied to random units in their codex as well.

I am not changing stuff to fit the new but likely temporary codex design philosophy for CSM. And there is no point in buying anything now because it could completely change with the next edition. So I won't.

Please change to name of this thread to : "CSM whining list".
Hardly any rumors here to read.

what rumours to you want?

everything for 9th is out, next rumours are for 10th Edition CSM Codex

PS:
my guess is that GW is playing 4D underwater chess here:

1. get a good rule set with dedicated Traitor Legion rules out
2. make it a big plastic box set with all new models
3. make such a bad CSM Codex that all the 40k Traitor Legion players are so annoyed to buy the new HH box set twice purly out of frustration
4. win-win and profit (many boxes sold, many new HH players so that the question of there is a local community to play with is an easy yes, shareholders are happy because it was not only Covid that made the record sales)