Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Gert wrote:
- Orks, somehow. This one I have no rationale for.

Clans are encoded into the ork's genes, any time any pile of orks grows large enough, the same clans will appear. The few orks that don't fit anywhere become freebootas. Lore-wise it's impossible for new clans to come into existence.

That's not even vaguely true. There are other clans, they've even been referred to by name over the years (Spider somethings come to mind from a fair bit back). I suppose they might have changed it in more recent books, but Clan kultur is taught, not genetic. When they scoop up wild boy yoofs, they get taught how to be 'proper' clan orks by nobs or older boyz.

I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.

I get it, it's been 5 years since CSM has gotten a book, they have 2 wounds now, all the legions are in one book, etc. etc. ... but to gloss over or omit mention of the stuff that got squatted (boy, Tabletop Tactics saying "who cared about mutilators anyway" really pissed me off) so thoroughly is just insulting. There's lots to be excited by, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't complain about egregious issues. Like, yeah, the Lord with Jump Pack probably personally impacted lots of folks, but it really is just one aspect of a large, concerning trend that people should be paying attention to.

I love these content creators and what they do for the hobby, and that's why I find it so concerning that they seem to be readily shifting into the propaganda role. I used to sub to several of them, but I'm proud that the only one I still sub to (Deployment Zone/Liam) is the only channel who remotely took GW to task for these changes.

DZ Winters seemed to like it (then again he said that Possessed with Marks would be great, yet another reviewer getting something quite important wrong, or missing details of restrictions).

What did Liam say?

They do it so they can continue to get crap for free. Only thing content creators are good for is a summary of new stuff, not to actually review it.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.

It's not a conspiracy by any means - if they were trashing GW they simply wouldn't get the material.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.

It's not a conspiracy by any means - if they were trashing GW they simply wouldn't get the material.

Find the Tabletop Tactics video for the preview warzone (Nachmund?) they were openly condemning it, to the point of openly saying that people shouldn't buy it because it wasn't worthwhile and ends with a 10 minute rant.
This vid- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDsCaBMYfIs
Its a far cry from this coverage- they were genuinely angry about that book, and didn't hide it at all.

I can think of Goonhammer reviews that were more critical, too. That splitting up this book the way they did (into 4 parts), didn't leave room for overall analysis was... weird.

Voss wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.

It's not a conspiracy by any means - if they were trashing GW they simply wouldn't get the material.

Find the Tabletop Tactics video for the preview warzone (Nachmund?) they were openly condemning it, to the point of openly saying that people shouldn't buy it because it wasn't worthwhile and ends with a 10 minute rant.
This vid- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDsCaBMYfIs
Its a far cry from this coverage- they were genuinely angry about that book, and didn't hide it at all.

I can think of Goonhammer reviews that were more critical, too. That splitting up this book the way they into 4 parts didn't leave room for overall analysis was... weird.

Exactly. Tabletop Tactics and GH have certainly provided honest feedback before, that's what made this feel so frustrating. I am fine with playing up the positives in this book (of which there are certainly many), but it's just dishonest to act like the negatives don't matter.

And on the Winters topic, I graded on a curve a bit because he doesn't have a standard CSM army (plus, his big thing these days is about rules complexity, and he's right, this book is not as complex as some of the others). He was positive but he mentioned the negatives and I don't disagree with him, I just come from a different POV.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.

GW stock is going down because it's still coming down from its record high during lockdowns. It's still not dropped below even the peak of 2019.

 Gert wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.

GW stock is going down because it's still coming down from its record high during lockdowns. It's still not dropped below even the peak of 2019.

Yeah, fair, I don't disagree (plus, look at the broader market, it's certainly down too). But I get why the share price drop would agitate the higher-ups and cause them to try and bolster customer sentiment.

Which by and large seems to have worked. Outside of Dakka, you see most of the negatives of the new book being dismissed or downvoted.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.

I get it, it's been 5 years since CSM has gotten a book, they have 2 wounds now, all the legions are in one book, etc. etc. ... but to gloss over or omit mention of the stuff that got squatted (boy, Tabletop Tactics saying "who cared about mutilators anyway" really pissed me off) so thoroughly is just insulting. There's lots to be excited by, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't complain about egregious issues. Like, yeah, the Lord with Jump Pack probably personally impacted lots of folks, but it really is just one aspect of a large, concerning trend that people should be paying attention to.

I love these content creators and what they do for the hobby, and that's why I find it so concerning that they seem to be readily shifting into the propaganda role. I used to sub to several of them, but I'm proud that the only one I still sub to (Deployment Zone/Liam) is the only channel who remotely took GW to task for these changes.

Decouple your head from the stock market. That isn't how it works. Especially when the whole world is upside down.

The book offers lots of interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play. The reviewers are likely less concerned about the particular issues raised here. And honestly if you're buying the book then it's probably time to move past it. If you're not then get those emails to GW.

The wider community is not going to share the same concerns.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
DZ Winters seemed to like it (then again he said that Possessed with Marks would be great, yet another reviewer getting something quite important wrong, or missing details of restrictions).

What did Liam say?

Liam subtitled his review "Ruined Before Release?". His biggest concern was that the codex wasn't written with the Warzone Nephalim changes in mind. A lot of it's strengths, both in actual power and the ability to customize your squads, seems to come from assigning relics to your Aspiring Champions. Which costs CP in the pre-game stage, which the Nephalim rules hit pretty hard. He said he felt "underwhelmed" by the codex.

SayHi Paul was also pretty critical of the wargear restrictions in his review. Of course, one of his many armies is Night Lords. So, yeah.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Which by and large seems to have worked. Outside of Dakka, you see most of the negatives of the new book being dismissed or downvoted.

I dunno, I've seen a fair amount from both sides on social media and the little look I've had on B&C since it went back up. I'm not in any Chaos FB groups because I generally can't stand it but before I left the Iron Warriors one it seemed there was a fair amount on both sides.
That being said the vast majority of complaints I've seen have been focused on the removal of options and the positives have been "Yay it's not utter garbage" or people haven't actually read the rules correctly.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The book offers lots of interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play. The reviewers are likely less concerned about the particular issues raised here. And honestly if you're buying the book then it's probably time to move past it. If you're not then get those emails to GW.

The wider community is not going to share the same concerns.

I'm not sure it's fair to say people should "move past it" when the book isn't even out yet. I think I reserve the right to be miffed that the army I spent that last year and a half converting isn't usable anymore because someone on the rules team decided not to play fair with CSM.

Voss wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Gert wrote:
- Orks, somehow. This one I have no rationale for.

Clans are encoded into the ork's genes, any time any pile of orks grows large enough, the same clans will appear. The few orks that don't fit anywhere become freebootas. Lore-wise it's impossible for new clans to come into existence.

That's not even vaguely true. There are other clans, they've even been referred to by name over the years (Spider somethings come to mind from a fair bit back). I suppose they might have changed it in more recent books, but Clan kultur is taught, not genetic. When they scoop up wild boy yoofs, they get taught how to be 'proper' clan orks by nobs or older boyz.

Feel free to quote source on that. The lore has been that way since at least third edition.

Waaagh the Orks (and also some snippets from 'Ere we Go and Freebooters, iirc)

Now you

Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.

I get it, it's been 5 years since CSM has gotten a book, they have 2 wounds now, all the legions are in one book, etc. etc. ... but to gloss over or omit mention of the stuff that got squatted (boy, Tabletop Tactics saying "who cared about mutilators anyway" really pissed me off) so thoroughly is just insulting. There's lots to be excited by, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't complain about egregious issues. Like, yeah, the Lord with Jump Pack probably personally impacted lots of folks, but it really is just one aspect of a large, concerning trend that people should be paying attention to.

I love these content creators and what they do for the hobby, and that's why I find it so concerning that they seem to be readily shifting into the propaganda role. I used to sub to several of them, but I'm proud that the only one I still sub to (Deployment Zone/Liam) is the only channel who remotely took GW to task for these changes.

Decouple your head from the stock market. That isn't how it works. Especially when the whole world is upside down.

The book offers lots of interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play. The reviewers are likely less concerned about the particular issues raised here. And honestly if you're buying the book then it's probably time to move past it. If you're not then get those emails to GW.

The wider community is not going to share the same concerns.

Yup. And sign THIS:

ArcaneHorror wrote:This looks promising, though the email is good as well:
https://wargamerdad.com/blog/chaos-space-marines-bring-back-the-jump-pack?fbclid=IwAR00X3uD_qAjwGnO5PUFgnnRxgfIwg0Iu_egYRGEQQeW8xUM89fPbACRqoQ

And much of the "wider community" is concerned. It's just that many other platforms are quicker to quell discontent than Dakka.

Voss wrote:
Waaagh the Orks (and also some snippets from 'Ere we Go and Freebooters, iirc)

Now you

Ah, I see, so you haven't updated your knowledge on ork lore for thirty years and still feel like your opinion is relevant to codices written today.
Sorry, it's not.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.

I get it, it's been 5 years since CSM has gotten a book, they have 2 wounds now, all the legions are in one book, etc. etc. ... but to gloss over or omit mention of the stuff that got squatted (boy, Tabletop Tactics saying "who cared about mutilators anyway" really pissed me off) so thoroughly is just insulting. There's lots to be excited by, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't complain about egregious issues. Like, yeah, the Lord with Jump Pack probably personally impacted lots of folks, but it really is just one aspect of a large, concerning trend that people should be paying attention to.

I love these content creators and what they do for the hobby, and that's why I find it so concerning that they seem to be readily shifting into the propaganda role. I used to sub to several of them, but I'm proud that the only one I still sub to (Deployment Zone/Liam) is the only channel who remotely took GW to task for these changes.

Decouple your head from the stock market. That isn't how it works. Especially when the whole world is upside down.

The book offers lots of interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play. The reviewers are likely less concerned about the particular issues raised here. And honestly if you're buying the book then it's probably time to move past it. If you're not then get those emails to GW.

The wider community is not going to share the same concerns.

*be polite be polite be polite be polite*

Dude, I promise you that EVERY suit at GW is freaking out about the stock tanking. I know corporations and I know GW, and it's very, very naive to act like that wouldn't have an impact.

And the platitudes about the book... Yeah, of course it has "interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play". Has there been a 9e codex yet that didn't meet that incredibly low bar?

And y'know, I can speak for the wider community too. Every CSM player with an invalidated model is going to share at least some of these concerns.

You make some great posts here but you're really not convincing anybody when you move away from the data-driven approach into punditry territory. Your statements mean feth all, just like mine.

 Jidmah wrote:

Voss wrote:
Waaagh the Orks (and also some snippets from 'Ere we Go and Freebooters, iirc)

Now you

Ah, I see, so you haven't updated your knowledge on ork lore for thirty years and still feel like your opinion is relevant to codices written today.
Sorry, it's not.

Ah, indeed.
Thanks for the laugh, and I'll just leave the layers of irony alone.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

*be polite be polite be polite be polite*

Dude, I promise you that EVERY suit at GW is freaking out about the stock tanking. I know corporations and I know GW, and it's very, very naive to act like that wouldn't have an impact.

And the platitudes about the book... Yeah, of course it has "interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play". Has there been a 9e codex yet that didn't meet that incredibly low bar?

And y'know, I can speak for the wider community too. Every CSM player with an invalidated model is going to share at least some of these concerns.

You make some great posts here but you're really not convincing anybody when you move away from the data-driven approach into punditry territory. Your statements mean feth all, just like mine.

What do you think is moving GW's bottom line? The Horus Heresy box or a $55 book?

This is a dividend stock - also meaning it is not a rapid growth stock. It's value is derived by the published dividend. GW will release their financials on 7/26, but they already gave rough figures:

Games Workshop is pleased to announce that for the year to 29 May 2022, we estimate the Group’s core revenue to be not less than £385 million (2020/21: £353 million) and royalties receivable of £28 million (2020/21: £16 million). The Group’s profit before tax is estimated to be not less than £155 million (2020/21: £151 million).

As in the prior year, in recognition of our staff’s contribution to these results, we have paid during the year profit share cash payments amounting in total to £10 million (2020/21: £13 million). These are paid in cash on an equal basis to each member of staff. Dividends declared in the year were £77 million, 235 pence per share (2020/21: £77 million, 235p per share).

So do you really think they're scrambling to make sure CSM gets positive reviews when sales and profit are up? One could argue that inflation makes the sales improvement negligible, but that's the world we live in at the moment. In all likelihood you will see the GW stock jump up again temporarily for investors to catch that dividend.

GW isn't going to waste time micromanaging this book. Their bigger issue is profitability, which went from ~43% to ~40% so clearly there are logistic headwinds affecting the company. That's what they're going to be worried about.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

*be polite be polite be polite be polite*

Dude, I promise you that EVERY suit at GW is freaking out about the stock tanking. I know corporations and I know GW, and it's very, very naive to act like that wouldn't have an impact.

And the platitudes about the book... Yeah, of course it has "interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play". Has there been a 9e codex yet that didn't meet that incredibly low bar?

And y'know, I can speak for the wider community too. Every CSM player with an invalidated model is going to share at least some of these concerns.

You make some great posts here but you're really not convincing anybody when you move away from the data-driven approach into punditry territory. Your statements mean feth all, just like mine.

What do you think is moving GW's bottom line? The Horus Heresy box or a $55 book?

This is a dividend stock - also meaning it is not a rapid growth stock. It's value is derived by the published dividend. GW will release their financials on 7/26, but they already gave rough figures:

Games Workshop is pleased to announce that for the year to 29 May 2022, we estimate the Group’s core revenue to be not less than £385 million (2020/21: £353 million) and royalties receivable of £28 million (2020/21: £16 million). The Group’s profit before tax is estimated to be not less than £155 million (2020/21: £151 million).

As in the prior year, in recognition of our staff’s contribution to these results, we have paid during the year profit share cash payments amounting in total to £10 million (2020/21: £13 million). These are paid in cash on an equal basis to each member of staff. Dividends declared in the year were £77 million, 235 pence per share (2020/21: £77 million, 235p per share).

So do you really think they're scrambling to make sure CSM gets positive reviews when sales and profit are up? One could argue that inflation makes the sales improvement negligible, but that's the world we live in at the moment. In all likelihood you will see the GW stock jump up again temporarily for investors to catch that dividend.

GW isn't going to waste time micromanaging this book. Their bigger issue is profitability, which went from ~43% to ~40% so clearly there are logistic headwinds affecting the company. That's what they're going to be worried about.

I don't think this CSM book is moving GW's bottom line, certainly; but I think even the accountants are probably aware of the fact that CSM is their second biggest 40k revenue stream. Yes, it's a distant second, of course, but it's less about the book and more about the player base.

Also, sales and profit are up but sales are flat (adjusting for inflation) and profit is down. Both of those things could further impact the stock (and you could argue that they already have, given that it continues to fall). Who knows what guidance will be but I'd be very surprised if the stock pops period.

And GW is certainly a dividend stock, but I suspect all those directors and such who are compensated non-negligibly in stock are keen on it bouncing back. Exxon is certainly a dividend stock but I'm sure you'd agree that their execs have been extremely happy with recent performance and are doing what they can (i.e. not ramping up drilling) to keep that up.

Yea, but you have the Brexit reality on top of inflation. Kingfisher - the UK Home Depot equivalent is also down similarly and that's a segment that is making lots of money right now, but investors are worried about rate hikes and the *future* effects of local and world events.

It's a nutty world on top of a market that is irrational. GW's target is the dollars they can put into the dividend. The stock fluctuation is just something that follows the whims of primates.

Moving back to the reviews, I feel like most of them were positive for two reasons: the army got stronger, and the reviewers likely don't play CSM.

The people most aware of what is missing are the people with long standing armies, not the people just getting into CSM or reviewing it without playing it before.

I sincerely hope we'll see some FAQs on this, but failing that I guess I'll be running a Terminator Lord using the NL Terminator Praetor.

At least the model is cool I guess?

If I had my way on this book I'd be arguing for the army to start with a legion design and then sprinkle in the more mutated elements on top. If anyone should still feel like you're running a HH legion it's the CSM.

Is this thread about gw's financial situation, or the situation with the CSM codex?

@Daedalus: Help me out here. What, exactly, is "fun" and "interesting" about everyone's jump pack equipped Characters and lighting claw and combi-weapon equipped Aspiring Champions (and characters) suddenly becoming illegal?

We've got a legitimate beef here. Sign the petition folks:


https://wargamerdad.com/blog/chaos-space-marines-bring-back-the-jump-pack?fbclid=IwAR00X3uD_qAjwGnO5PUFgnnRxgfIwg0Iu_egYRGEQQeW8xUM89fPbACRqoQ

At minimum they could've given Chosen slightly better Bolters like they did for Sternguard, but that would've been too difficult I guess.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Is this thread about gw's financial situation, or the situation with the CSM codex?

@Daedalus: Help me out here. What, exactly, is "fun" and "interesting" about everyone's jump pack equipped Characters and lighting claw and combi-weapon equipped Aspiring Champions (and characters) suddenly becoming illegal?

We've got a legitimate beef here. Sign the petition folks:


https://wargamerdad.com/blog/chaos-space-marines-bring-back-the-jump-pack?fbclid=IwAR00X3uD_qAjwGnO5PUFgnnRxgfIwg0Iu_egYRGEQQeW8xUM89fPbACRqoQ

How many petitioners are buying the codex day one AND hoping that James Workshop change their misguided direction?

EviscerationPlague wrote:
At minimum they could've given Chosen slightly better Bolters like they did for Sternguard, but that would've been too difficult I guess.

Only if they get to roll all the range options into Accursed Guns.

It will be interesting to compare how long it takes for Loyalists to get the upgraded Land Raiders/ vehicles compared to how long it took for the second wound to finally arrive.

My guess? Loyalists will see the upgraded vehicles before Death Guard and Thousand Sons.

Don’t get me wrong, I have firstborn Marine armies as well and would quite like their vehicles upgraded but it will definitely add to my Chaotic sense of injustice.

Sonsoftherock wrote:
It will be interesting to compare how long it takes for Loyalists to get the upgraded Land Raiders/ vehicles compared to how long it took for the second wound to finally arrive.

My guess? Loyalists will see the upgraded vehicles before Death Guard and Thousand Sons.

Don’t get me wrong, I have firstborn Marine armies as well and would quite like their vehicles upgraded but it will definitely add to my Chaotic sense of injustice.

I'd say the more immediate question is 'how long until a Chaos Kratos datasheet?' I (kinda) get waiting until the new codex is released, but each day after is going to feel like a burn, since the loyalist datasheet went up before the Kratos was even released.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving back to the reviews, I feel like most of them were positive for two reasons: the army got stronger, and the reviewers likely don't play CSM..

The main author of the Goonhammer review is a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's attitude than anything about the new Marine book. Yes, it sucks to lose options (accursed weapons, jump packs) but the book overall looks pretty good.

Sonsoftherock wrote:
It will be interesting to compare how long it takes for Loyalists to get the upgraded Land Raiders/ vehicles compared to how long it took for the second wound to finally arrive.

My guess? Loyalists will see the upgraded vehicles before Death Guard and Thousand Sons.

Don’t get me wrong, I have firstborn Marine armies as well and would quite like their vehicles upgraded but it will definitely add to my Chaotic sense of injustice.

Not much of a bet. I'm sure all three will get the upgraded vehicle stats when GW publishes the next version of their respective Codexes. So probably Space Marines shortly after 10th Edition drops with Death Guard and Thousand Sons at some random point in the three years that follow.