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2022/07/05 13:36:42
Subject: Re:Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Gadzilla666 wrote: I completely understand your position. I just want as many people to get to play with the HH rules as possible, and everyone doesn't dig marines. So, maybe early Crusade rules?
Yeah, the Crusade is a much better period for those who want to use Xenos, the only real issue comes down to some Traitor armies losing portions of their list, the Word Bearers especially lose every single unit besides Ashen Circle and maybe Lorgar.
2022/07/05 13:39:56
Subject: Re:Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Gert wrote: I'm opposed to Xenos in HH from a background perspective and just tend to get a bit irritated when people say Xenos were involved when they very clearly weren't.
The Legions were united in a conquest to exterminate all Xenos from Imperial territory. They were very successful.
It doesn't make sense Xenos armies would suddenly reappear and pick a side in the Heresy. Traitors and Loyalists alike would still want them stomped out of existence. The question is whether that would take priority over the revolution, and I say no. One campaign comes before all others.
It does make sense that Xenos armies would try to reclaim lost territory in the wake of an internecine conflict. This could include persecuting old grudges against Legions they especially hate. There's times battle is unavoidable and this could be worked into the game.
Part of the appeal of HH is the narrative around the missions. Skilled writers could find a way to make this work. It would not work unless it's aligned with the central narrative.
blood reaper wrote: I mean yeah it does suck - out of six powers maybe two are usable, so you just bring a second MoP.
Death Hex is great but it's a difficult to cast power which will necessitate either a re-roll (or the use of the WB autocast strat). A single model purely to cast one power is a terrible deal.
Likewise Warptime is indeed now a 'may be useful' power (because it was massively nerfed into the ground, and is no longer always useful, it is now sometimes useful).
Compare this with a MoP where nearly every power is useful.
There's very little 'depth' because you can just take a second MoP. You're paying a total of 10 points more to get a figure which is just outright better in every conceivable way.
That's a fair argument. The sorcerer could have probably done with some special rules to make him stand out. I guess I could switch to the Sorcerer in Terminator armour, as you can get a combi weapon and familiar.
It's pretty much universally agreed the Sorcerer Terminator is just outright superior to the base one because of the combi weapons, familiar, and deep strike capability. The points increase is pretty negligible for the increased durability, deployment options, etc.
...perhaps if the Sorcerer could've taken some kind of pack that permitted him longer jumps or could have ... driven himself there on a man vehicle - or even ridden upon say a flying monster, evil steed, or was carried into battle upon some kind of palanquin, he may have had a chance.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
2022/07/05 13:56:04
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
techsoldaten wrote: It does make sense that Xenos armies would try to reclaim lost territory in the wake of an internecine conflict. This could include persecuting old grudges against Legions they especially hate. There's times battle is unavoidable and this could be worked into the game.
Part of the appeal of HH is the narrative around the missions. Skilled writers could find a way to make this work. It would not work unless it's aligned with the central narrative.
The thing with Xenos is that as you pointed out the Imperium was very successful in ending Xenos threats to mankind. By the time of the Heresy (i.e. just before Isstvan and Prospero), we have two mentions of Orks. One is a fake threat made up by Horus to cause the Betrayal at Calth, and the other is the White Scars hunting Ork remnants after the Ullanor campaign. Indeed one of the big issues the Scars face is the loss of wild space for them to roam free and hunt.
Of the Xenos races present during the Crusade era we have:
Craftworlds - Very much content to just let the Imperium tear itself apart, Eldrad even tried to speed this up.
Orks - There weren't any Ork empires left to threaten the Imperium and they were very much beaten. This is very important because it forms the basis of why the War of the Beast is so deadly to the Imperium. The wider power base just leaves the Orks alone because they don't see them as a threat.
Necrons - Haven't woken up.
T'au - Haven't evolved.
Nids - Haven't shown up yet.
Drukhari - Some raiders might have taken advantage of outskirt planets but they were largely still building Commoragh at this time and having wars amongst themselves.
Personally I don't even think particularly skilled writers could make any sort of Xenos intervention work well with the overarching HH narrative *cough*Cabal*cough*.
2022/07/05 14:05:19
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
JNAProductions wrote: "The new book is more powerful" is not the same as "The new book is better".
The new book is objectively better ( not that this was a high bar to beat ). I played with it this weekend and it was quite fun.
No, it isn't "objectively" better. It might be better for you, and lots of other people, but for some of us it isn't. Night Lords without a Jump Lord is complete .
2022/07/05 14:12:11
Subject: Re:Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm a fan of converting every model to have every weapon, then they can never say you're wrong!
Ha! reminds me somewhere in my drawer of unused minis I have a chosen with a bolter, melta, and plasma rifle on his back, and a power lance and bolt piston in his hands.
"I don't have a good feeling about this... Your mini looks like it has my mini's head on a stick..."
"From the immaterium to the Imperium, this is Radio Free Nostramo! Coming to you live from the Eye of Terror, this is your host, Captain Contagion, bringing you the latest Heretical hits!"
2022/07/05 18:44:46
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
JNAProductions wrote: "The new book is more powerful" is not the same as "The new book is better".
The new book is objectively better ( not that this was a high bar to beat ). I played with it this weekend and it was quite fun.
No, it isn't "objectively" better. It might be better for you, and lots of other people, but for some of us it isn't. Night Lords without a Jump Lord is complete .
Yea these sort of hyperbolic statements don't do it for me. The NL traits are all better. Some strats are powered down, but more flexible than just 3 ways to charge harder. The relics all appear to be improved other than losing 2+ on stormbolt.
But..."complete gak", I guess.
It's like reading those obnoxious new headlines. "Person SLAMS thing!" It's just over the top language.
You might be able to say “It’s objectively more powerful” but not “It’s objectively better”.
What's your barometer for enjoying a codex?
Cramming as many combi-meltas on terminators as you can...
...or doing interesting things with your units?
There's legit not a lot more "interesting things" to do with the units LOL
I mean a mark of slaanesh legionnaires unit with icon getting +1 to hit, fight first, fight twice via strat and the black mace on the champ and a balefire tome allowing diabolic strength isn't something interesting you could do before.
2022/07/05 19:22:03
Subject: Re:Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
You might be able to say “It’s objectively more powerful” but not “It’s objectively better”.
What's your barometer for enjoying a codex?
Cramming as many combi-meltas on terminators as you can...
...or doing interesting things with your units?
What's the difference in "interesting" and "gimmicky"? When I look at what Dudeface said below, I think gimmicky. And I think the construction of this deck doubles down on the gimmicks, which is what people have hated about Chaos codexes since time immemorial.
2022/07/05 19:37:11
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
You might be able to say “It’s objectively more powerful” but not “It’s objectively better”.
What's your barometer for enjoying a codex?
Cramming as many combi-meltas on terminators as you can...
...or doing interesting things with your units?
There's legit not a lot more "interesting things" to do with the units LOL
I mean a mark of slaanesh legionnaires unit with icon getting +1 to hit, fight first, fight twice via strat and the black mace on the champ and a balefire tome allowing diabolic strength isn't something interesting you could do before.
In before the fight twice strat is nerfed, the relics and daemon weapons become restricted to HQ or Elite options, balefire tome stops allowing you to take an extra power (you'll just get smite) etc.
All of those things are rules that are well beyond the models that you make, which means they can all be nerfed, removed, etc. Wouldn't it be nice to build your Legionaries and be able to know that their loadout will last a little longer than a single edition?
2022/07/06 04:29:13
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
JNAProductions wrote: "The new book is more powerful" is not the same as "The new book is better".
The new book is objectively better ( not that this was a high bar to beat ). I played with it this weekend and it was quite fun.
No, it isn't "objectively" better. It might be better for you, and lots of other people, but for some of us it isn't. Night Lords without a Jump Lord is complete .
Yea these sort of hyperbolic statements don't do it for me. The NL traits are all better. Some strats are powered down, but more flexible than just 3 ways to charge harder. The relics all appear to be improved other than losing 2+ on stormbolt.
But..."complete gak", I guess.
It's like reading those obnoxious new headlines. "Person SLAMS thing!" It's just over the top language.
I'm sorry, did I say anything about the trait? Or stratagems? Or relics? Let me check........nope, didn't mention any of that crap. I was talking about Jump Lords. Y'know, those guys that practically every Night Lords player has? The guys that lead our armies? Because they can actually keep up with them?
My army has been led by a Chaos Lord, with paired lightning claws and a Jump Pack since I started it twenty years ago. And no amount of tacked on and CCG inspired nonsense is going to replace that. But go on, keep defending whatever gw decides to strip away from CSM, or anyone else, just because they threw more stratagems at us.
2022/07/06 11:07:39
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Just play with this model paying extra 15 points (?) for jump pack in friendly games.
Unless You plan to play tournaments with Night Lords (kudos!) then You'll be forced to play on-foot with this model.
2022/07/06 11:13:26
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Gert wrote: The thing with Xenos is that as you pointed out the Imperium was very successful in ending Xenos threats to mankind. By the time of the Heresy (i.e. just before Isstvan and Prospero), we have two mentions of Orks. One is a fake threat made up by Horus to cause the Betrayal at Calth, and the other is the White Scars hunting Ork remnants after the Ullanor campaign. Indeed one of the big issues the Scars face is the loss of wild space for them to roam free and hunt.
Of the Xenos races present during the Crusade era we have:
Craftworlds - Very much content to just let the Imperium tear itself apart, Eldrad even tried to speed this up.
Orks - There weren't any Ork empires left to threaten the Imperium and they were very much beaten. This is very important because it forms the basis of why the War of the Beast is so deadly to the Imperium. The wider power base just leaves the Orks alone because they don't see them as a threat.
Necrons - Haven't woken up.
T'au - Haven't evolved.
Nids - Haven't shown up yet.
Drukhari - Some raiders might have taken advantage of outskirt planets but they were largely still building Commoragh at this time and having wars amongst themselves.
Personally I don't even think particularly skilled writers could make any sort of Xenos intervention work well with the overarching HH narrative *cough*Cabal*cough*.
Never doubt the power of a skilled writer.
A greatly depleted Ork revivalist faction fights rearguard actions against a Legion, stripping it of materials and equipment during the rush to Terra. Legions are forced to fight their way through, delays enabling staunch defenses of Imperial positions.
A Warseer suddenly launches a brutal campaign against warring Legions to avert their path away from a shrouded Craftworld. Both sides are caught up in strategic conflicts that draw them to the edge of a contested sector, before the Eldar suddenly withdrawl.
The endless curiosity of some Explorator Majori investigating sites of the Rangdan Xenocides leads to the accidental awakening of some Necron dynasty, which proceeds to carry out hostile activities against Imperial worlds. Contact records are lost in the havoc of the HH, as Loyalists and Traitors alike are forced to fight in order to withdraw.
Stories like this could fit into the Heresy without diminishing the overall setting.
I'm sure they'd find some way to shoe-horn in a massive yet hitherto unknown massive alien invasion that took place during the same period that various Legions had to fight.
I mean, they made the HH responsible for bringing the Tyranids to the galaxy, so why not that?
JNAProductions wrote: "The new book is more powerful" is not the same as "The new book is better".
The new book is objectively better ( not that this was a high bar to beat ). I played with it this weekend and it was quite fun.
No, it isn't "objectively" better. It might be better for you, and lots of other people, but for some of us it isn't. Night Lords without a Jump Lord is complete .
Yea these sort of hyperbolic statements don't do it for me. The NL traits are all better. Some strats are powered down, but more flexible than just 3 ways to charge harder. The relics all appear to be improved other than losing 2+ on stormbolt.
But..."complete gak", I guess.
It's like reading those obnoxious new headlines. "Person SLAMS thing!" It's just over the top language.
I'm sorry, did I say anything about the trait? Or stratagems? Or relics? Let me check........nope, didn't mention any of that crap. I was talking about Jump Lords. Y'know, those guys that practically every Night Lords player has? The guys that lead our armies? Because they can actually keep up with them?
My army has been led by a Chaos Lord, with paired lightning claws and a Jump Pack since I started it twenty years ago. And no amount of tacked on and CCG inspired nonsense is going to replace that. But go on, keep defending whatever gw decides to strip away from CSM, or anyone else, just because they threw more stratagems at us.
There is a lot right with this codex as Daedalus implies, but there are some things not kosher. I believe the weapon restrictions are more of an annoyance but completely agree that the jump pack issue is more of a you move by GW that makes people sour. If they are willing to walk back on this (like the Eldar autarch), I think that would go a long way, even if it was just for the Lord.
2022/07/06 12:05:56
Subject: Re:Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
The Eldar Titans were first introduced into the game of Adeptus Titanicus (the first version), which was set in the Heresy. The Eldar fought against Chaos, not necessarily for the Imperium. However I certainly could see some Eldar taking the view that all humans are the same and still attacking the Imperium, especially if it is in retribution for Imperial attacks on them during the Great Crusade.
2022/07/06 12:14:25
Subject: Re:Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
A greatly depleted Ork revivalist faction fights rearguard actions against a Legion, stripping it of materials and equipment during the rush to Terra. Legions are forced to fight their way through, delays enabling staunch defenses of Imperial positions.
A Warseer suddenly launches a brutal campaign against warring Legions to avert their path away from a shrouded Craftworld. Both sides are caught up in strategic conflicts that draw them to the edge of a contested sector, before the Eldar suddenly withdrawl.
The endless curiosity of some Explorator Majori investigating sites of the Rangdan Xenocides leads to the accidental awakening of some Necron dynasty, which proceeds to carry out hostile activities against Imperial worlds. Contact records are lost in the havoc of the HH, as Loyalists and Traitors alike are forced to fight in order to withdraw.
Stories like this could fit into the Heresy without diminishing the overall setting.
Except we aren't writing a book, it's playing the game. As soon as a Xenos army shows up they have an equal chance to be played as any other faction (excluding the Legions) in the game and then we lose the point of the Heresy being the Heresy, it's now just 40k Lite. A short story or single game about the events you have described is an interesting story, having it be a possibility for every game played is not.
Spoiler:
tneva82 wrote: Besides how much non-crusade stuff there really is in HH? Aka how hard it would be to get aliens to HH game system by creating supplement for crusade.
Crusade involved lots of fighting vs aliens. And legions fought like legions as they weren't split yet.
Again, the Great Crusade is not an issue but IMO it then just becomes 40k with fewer options for Xenos players. As a community effort to help people transition from one ruleset to another I think it's fine but I don't see the point in doing it in any official capacity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/06 12:14:52
2022/07/06 12:21:45
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Cramming as many combi-meltas on terminators as you can...
...or doing interesting things with your units?
Not having half my army invalidated and not having very random restrictions placed on unit options.
Yep, and CSM 9e replaces your invalidated units and models with gimmicky wombo combo crap that we all seemed to have hated in 8e (I'm sure I could dig up scores of posts from folks in this thread on that topic), but the kneejerk contrarians have conveniently forgotten about all that.
2022/07/06 13:01:58
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Xyxel wrote: Just play with this model paying extra 15 points (?) for jump pack in friendly games.
Unless You plan to play tournaments with Night Lords (kudos!) then You'll be forced to play on-foot with this model.
On foot doesn't even work well because they removed lightning claws as a weapon option, too.
At that point you're basically proxying.
.
