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 Olthannon wrote:


A trebuchet is archaic but it's not low tech.

It is compared to modern ordinance.
No army still uses trebuchets for a reason.

I do not dispute that 40k has a theme of older is better (which isn't even unique to 40k), but I do dispute that this applies to the very aesthetic of the technology in question.
Imperial tech looks crude and impractical because its a copy of an broken design based on scraps of what they could find, purveyed by fanatics who are basically militant monks from the Order of Leibowitz.

The Leagues of Votann are not supposed to suffer from such a drawback, so them using a hodgepodge design that would give a gun smith conniptions doesn't make sense in fluff or out.

kodos wrote:and now they are going advertise a new faction with superior technology, that is so much superior that even the most superior alien race until now learned from them how to buid guns

I didn't see anything in that article about them teaching the Necrons a thing.

They may, unfortunately, have taught a specific weapons technology - Ion tech - to the T'au, but that's it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
Necromunda doesn't count because its 80s pulp.

Necromunda also has a tremendous lack of real Scotsmen.

I'm curious - if there were Scotsmen on Necromunda, which House do you think we'd find them in, if any?

 Dysartes wrote:

kodos wrote:and now they are going advertise a new faction with superior technology, that is so much superior that even the most superior alien race until now learned from them how to buid guns

I didn't see anything in that article about them teaching the Necrons a thing.

They may, unfortunately, have taught a specific weapons technology - Ion tech - to the T'au, but that's it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
Necromunda doesn't count because its 80s pulp.

Necromunda also has a tremendous lack of real Scotsmen.

I'm curious - if there were Scotsmen on Necromunda, which House do you think we'd find them in, if any?

Cawdor. Duh. Given the name is lifted from MacBeth, who was Thane of Cawdor.

 Olthannon wrote:

Flinty wrote:@Olthannon - the shotgun grip is aesthetically similar to the Bolter grip you showed, but it also has a specifically modelled groove in front and behind it implying it’s a slide that bolters don’t have.

ImAGeek wrote:

I really don’t care about gun design apart from ‘does it look cool’ so I don’t have a dog in this fight, but you can see the slide on the shotgun.

Fair enough if so. But why is it screwed on to the barrel if it's meant to slide?

Who says its screwed on the barrel? It has pin-heads on the corners, sure, but thats just detailing and could just represent a rubber grip being fixed to a harder metal-bodies slide underneath or whatever. You're assuming way too much.

 Crimson wrote:
This is inane. If people cannot handle bolt shotguns or whatever because it is not plausibly optimal weapon design they should have just walked away from 40K decades ago and never look back. Basically nothing in this setting makes sense, it runs 95% on the rule of cool.

I'm so tired of all these absurd generated grievances regarding everything.

Welcome to dakka. This is what this forum seems to exist for at this point.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The Leagues of Votann are not supposed to suffer from such a drawback, so them using a hodgepodge design that would give a gun smith conniptions doesn't make sense in fluff or out.

Oh come on, give the designers a break. They're not professional gunsmiths so asking them to design plausible looking sci-fi weapons would be too much. Just like it is to ask them to design believable anatomy, expressive faces, tanks that could actually function in the real world, anything not held together by rivets, or a woman without Rob Liefeld proportions.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The Leagues of Votann are not supposed to suffer from such a drawback, so them using a hodgepodge design that would give a gun smith conniptions doesn't make sense in fluff or out.

Oh come on, give the designers a break. They're not professional gunsmiths so asking them to design plausible looking sci-fi weapons would be too much. Just like it is to ask them to design believable anatomy, expressive faces, tanks that could actually function in the real world, anything not held together by rivets, or a woman without Rob Liefeld proportions.

Would it, though? The internet is a thing, and if you wanna learn of see examples, you can. If you decide not to do it, then the issue is not that you don't know guns. It is that you don't care.

They could watch this for example

 Albertorius wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The Leagues of Votann are not supposed to suffer from such a drawback, so them using a hodgepodge design that would give a gun smith conniptions doesn't make sense in fluff or out.

Oh come on, give the designers a break. They're not professional gunsmiths so asking them to design plausible looking sci-fi weapons would be too much. Just like it is to ask them to design believable anatomy, expressive faces, tanks that could actually function in the real world, anything not held together by rivets, or a woman without Rob Liefeld proportions.

Would it, though? The internet is a thing, and if you wanna learn of see examples, you can. If you decide not to do it, then the issue is not that you don't know guns. It is that you don't care.

Sorry, I thought I was already laying the irony way too thick there, but clearly I was being too subtle to be understood. I fully maintain that the GW designers are, by and large, uninventive doofuses who don't look at nearly enough real-world references and instead make do with smashing shapes together until the result sort of looks like a mechanism. Wha they produce are cargo-cult facsimiles of plausible mechanisms, with little understanding of basic mechanical concepts that by necessity generally must underlie even science-fiction-fantastical things like boltguns, gauss flayers and land raiders.

 Flinty wrote:
They could watch this for example

The problem with that is that he hears bolter and says gyrojet, which means him wrong on a fundamental level. It’s like being told about speedboats and saying they’re dumb because paddle steamers suck.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Welcome to dakka. This is what this forum seems to exist for at this point.

You know no one's forcing you to stay here, right?



(If you are being forced though, blink twice and we'll send help!!! ).

 Mr_Rose wrote:
The problem with that is that he hears bolter and says gyrojet, which means him wrong on a fundamental level.

he also refers to the original rules/fluff were they write about caseless rocket propelled ammunition

it is not his problem that the fluff on what Bolter actually are, the artworks and the rules in game do not fit together, if the fluff talks about caseless exploding bullets, the artworks showing cases because they are cool and the rules do are changing whatever the games needs to keep Marines up, it is what it is

but also says that Bolters as how they are shown in the game are more like automatic grenade launchers, and not gyrojets like written in the fluff

Well I'm hesitant to drag this argument out, but here is a good video on how a modern pump action shotgun works.
https://youtu.be/21uh28Z77Xg

Notice that the action is designed to control the feeding of shells into the chamber from a magazine tube. Adding a revolver action makes it completely redundant.

So those of us who know our way around shotguns (I was, in fact, gifted an 870 as a wedding present from an uncle, go USA) feel that bonkers firearm design (among other things) break the immersion. Same goes for poor firearm handling in movies. Yes, it's absurd sci fiction, but sometimes there needs to be a foundation of reality to protect the immersion.

Also fully understand that this isn't a problem for some people, because they don't have the innate knowledge.

So to conclude, I'm not saying that GW sucks for doing what they did, just that my preference would help me maintain my immersion in the universe. Nothing a bit of choppy choppy and green stuff can't fix.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The Leagues of Votann are not supposed to suffer from such a drawback, so them using a hodgepodge design that would give a gun smith conniptions doesn't make sense in fluff or out.

Oh come on, give the designers a break. They're not professional gunsmiths so asking them to design plausible looking sci-fi weapons would be too much. Just like it is to ask them to design believable anatomy, expressive faces, tanks that could actually function in the real world, anything not held together by rivets, or a woman without Rob Liefeld proportions.

Would it, though? The internet is a thing, and if you wanna learn of see examples, you can. If you decide not to do it, then the issue is not that you don't know guns. It is that you don't care.

Sorry, I thought I was already laying the irony way too thick there, but clearly I was being too subtle to be understood. I fully maintain that the GW designers are, by and large, uninventive doofuses who don't look at nearly enough real-world references and instead make do with smashing shapes together until the result sort of looks like a mechanism. Wha they produce are cargo-cult facsimiles of plausible mechanisms, with little understanding of basic mechanical concepts that by necessity generally must underlie even science-fiction-fantastical things like boltguns, gauss flayers and land raiders.

No, no, I got it. I was just expanding on the idea.

 kodos wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
The problem with that is that he hears bolter and says gyrojet, which means him wrong on a fundamental level.

he also refers to the original rules/fluff were they write about caseless rocket propelled ammunition

it is not his problem that the fluff on what Bolter actually are, the artworks and the rules in game do not fit together, if the fluff talks about caseless exploding bullets, the artworks showing cases because they are cool and the rules do are changing whatever the games needs to keep Marines up, it is what it is

but also says that Bolters as how they are shown in the game are more like automatic grenade launchers, and not gyrojets like written in the fluff

It doesn't help either that a lot of media tends to portray bolters as just large caliber guns rather than mini rocket launchers.

 Albertorius wrote:

No, no, I got it. I was just expanding on the idea.

Ah yes, the classic "your joke, but worse" maneuver.

Back on topic, LoV and allies. They are much, much less xenophobic than the Imperium, yet are tolerated by the Imperium as one of the sanctioned Abhuman species.

I wonder if they will have as special rules where you can soup them with any Imperium army OR Tau force without losing doctrines or other rules.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

No, no, I got it. I was just expanding on the idea.

Ah yes, the classic "your joke, but worse" maneuver.

Nobody ever said I was good at jokes, so... ^^

Not a fan of the Bolter Mk. NRF

Not overly annoyed or surprised though as 40k is over the top sci fantasy. Wouldn't be hard to chop and swap in mag either.

 kodos wrote:
[
a Revolver is not necessarily easier than an automatic, the mechanics are more delicate
the main point for the revolver is that it is, it can be smaller (better concealed) suffer less from shooter failures, have less problem with ammunition quality and you can use stronger ammunition
meaning it also works with bad ammo, which would be a problem for a semi-auto but as the force for the "reload" comes from the operator, a bad bullet won't stop your gun

they fail less, but if they fail it is not a quick fix but you need to take them apart to clear it which you need a gunsmith (and secure workplace)

so talking about a revolver fire bolter round, stronger ammo is not a point (rocket propelled round), neither is concealment, so it would come down to LoV have problems with ammunition quality and are bad at shooting
not sure if this is the indented picture we should get

You're partway there, but off about some of the details.
Revolvers are generally more reliable than an equivalent semi automatics due to having fewer moving parts and are actually less delicate than an auto or semi auto. They are also also harder to conceal (though not overly so) than a semi automatic. A semi automatic (especially if single stack) can be nearly half the thickness of a similarly calibered revolver while having the same or greater magazine capacity.

As for instances of major failure, a revolver is not necessarily any more complicated to repair than a semi, usually less so.

Revolvers advantages are simplicity of operation, reliability and operability in rough conditions, often high power ammo, and faster recovery of a misfire shell.

Semi auto advantages are magazine capacity, concealability, speed of reload and and the accuracy afforded by lighter trigger pull as a result of the auto reload.

Then Col. Fosbery went and made the semi-auto revolver just to confuse things.

My dream/nightmare is a gas-operated blow-forward automatic revolver with the same obturation collar deal as the Jackhammer. Firing from the bottom cylinder of course (Ghisoni was right, dammit!).

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Then Col. Fosbery went and made the semi-auto revolver just to confuse things.

My dream/nightmare is a gas-operated blow-forward automatic revolver with the same obturation collar deal as the Jackhammer. Firing from the bottom cylinder of course (Ghisoni was right, dammit!).

I have something of a soft spot for matebas too because of Trigun.
The revolver the main character uses isn't a true mateba, mind you, but it fires from the bottom of the cylinder like one.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Then Col. Fosbery went and made the semi-auto revolver just to confuse things.

My dream/nightmare is a gas-operated blow-forward automatic revolver with the same obturation collar deal as the Jackhammer. Firing from the bottom cylinder of course (Ghisoni was right, dammit!).

I have something of a soft spot for matebas too because of Trigun.
The revolver the main character uses isn't a true mateba, mind you, but it fires from the bottom of the cylinder like one.

GitS for me, but yeah. An original Mateba is definitely on my Lottery List.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As a friend of mine just put it:

"Bolt Shotgun is stupid. Gyrojet does not work like that. Either it is a regular shotgun yeeting out packed shot, or it is just a regular gyrojet slug in which case it is just a bolter."

It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?

Presumably when you pump it it rotates the cylinder.
Which...works I guess, but it's not what I would call practical and seems needlessly complex. Which for a race of supposed advanced not-Dwarfs that does everything better than the Imperium in terms of engineering doesn't seem right.

Also, why is it Volkanite and not Volkite? Did GW think that volkite not good enough (even though the Imperium lost how to produce them), so they felt that they had to make volkite +1?

Can't believe I'm going to chime in on this, the shotgun. Looking at the revolving boltgun thingy it's a top break design. Double action I'd bet. The pump is to eject the spent shells all at once after the the front part of the firearm as pivoted down where there is clearly a hing point. Is that what they had in mind? Doubtful but it makes the most sense and looks like it could function that way.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As a friend of mine just put it:

"Bolt Shotgun is stupid. Gyrojet does not work like that. Either it is a regular shotgun yeeting out packed shot, or it is just a regular gyrojet slug in which case it is just a bolter."

It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?

Presumably when you pump it it rotates the cylinder.
Which...works I guess, but it's not what I would call practical and seems needlessly complex. Which for a race of supposed advanced not-Dwarfs that does everything better than the Imperium in terms of engineering doesn't seem right.

Also, why is it Volkanite and not Volkite? Did GW think that volkite not good enough (even though the Imperium lost how to produce them), so they felt that they had to make volkite +1?

Can't believe I'm going to chime in on this, the shotgun. Looking at the revolving boltgun thingy it's a top break design. Double action I'd bet. The pump is to eject the spent shells all at once after the the front part of the firearm as pivoted down where there is clearly a hing point. Is that what they had in mind? Doubtful but it makes the most sense and looks like it could function that way.

How is the pump going to eject all of the shells at once? That would imply a series of rods that get pushed into casings (a la Striker), wouldn't it? Where would the rods be?
Don't most break action shotguns eject shells automatically anyway?

this way:



one pump, all gone

The pump on the SPAS was to enable the user to cycle the action in case the shell type being used wasn’t strong enough to cycle it automatically. But as Royal Armouries guy is so fond of saying, it’s hard to believe that a fancy future weapon won’t have solved that through automation

 kodos wrote:
this way:



one pump, all gone

Fair enough. I still think that it would have been better if it just ejected the shells automatically like a typical break action shotgun, but the pump has a plausible use now at least.

Considering the weapon is said to be usable one handed while riding the Hover Trike, I doubt it's actually a pump.

Next up MMA fans critique the fighting styles of Eldar aspect warriors!

The fore-end grip on the Jackhammer is basically a charging handle, just way chunkier. No reason that can’t be the case here.

As for how “bolt” and “shotgun” works imma go back to rocket-propelled Shrapnel style cased shot. Of course that would make it a long range anti-infantry weapon so it will doubtless be a short ranged anti armour weapon because reasons. Kind of like the bike snipers the Eldar just got.

I'm just glad the rest of the weapons are so simple and pragmatic like the conversion beamer and graviton blaster. Easy to see how they work.