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The new cadian troops have details that refrence back to the 2nd ed models. The helmets in particular, in addition to the return of shoulder straps(ww2/vietnam style web gear) for back packs and such much like the old models
You seem to forget this is GW we are talking about, a lot of their new stuff has references/design elements to old stuff. Nostalgia is a big factor in getting people to buy new models so putting some small details that look like or somewhat reference old models is not out of the ordinary for gw. Heck take a look at the new Mephiston model, it literally had heavy influence of an old piece of 40k art when they made him a primarus, and they even included bitz to make it look just like the old art https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/20/mephiston-rereborn/ (heck take a look at the sprew, it has a alt arm to recreate the art piece in miniature form https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Mephiston-Lord-of-Death-2020 ). For example the new primarus power armor helmet is designed to give the feel of the mk4 helmets, some combination of GW talking about their design choices and in the lore (irc lore was that it is a combination of some of the best elements of various marks of power armor, the mk4 reference of the helmet is an obvious one). Weather or not YOU can see them there or not dose not mean that they are not there.
Its the fact that the webbing is even present on the basic guard troops is a reference to the 2nd edition models (a detail of the old metals that was not continued onto the 3rd ed plastics), of which the most of them had webbing gear that their bedroll and other equipment is attached to. In the new models all of the basic troops have the webbing (with gear like a bed roll just like the 2nd ed) and all of the new heavy weapon teams have the same webbing on the new models. The older plastic cadians do not have webbing gear present on the models and was a detail that was not present, the 2nd edition one's do. Any back pack item like a flame thrower tank looks like its clipped into the chest plate of the 3rd ed plastics where the 2nd ed models and these new one's have back packs and web gear that go over the armor and not strapped directly to the chest plate. Not to mention the extra equipment bits have changed slightly, the core grenade, ammo pouch and canteen are present as they have been from 2nd ed metals, 3rd ed plastics and to the new ones now, However the new models have the return of a bedroll on their equipment just like the 2n ed ones have bedrolls. The brim of the helmet like on that new box art is also present on the 2nd edition models, the 3rd edition plastics have flat fronts on the helmets and no brim. Both on the new models and the 2nd edition have a very slight brim on the front of the helmet like a US GI ww2/vietnam erra helmet. The 2nd edition web gear on the models passes under the sholder pads and meets in a Y strap at the back and while we haven't seen the back of the new models I bet on once we can see the back of the new models we will have to see if it comes to a Y strap like the 2nd ed models.
Even from 2nd ed to 3rd edition the models have retain some degree of similar styleing that harkens back to the previous models. for example the Helmet silhouette has slightly change but still looks familiar from 2nd ed metals to 3rd ed plastics and then to these new ones. The knee pad on the pants is a nice touch
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjAgy27WAAEPoaL?format=jpg&name=medium (this one is a good example of art and model design that the cadians would have from 3rd up to now, as you can see the lack of brims on the helmets that were present in 2nd ed stuff but is now missing. No more web gear that goes over the shoulders, different gear as well like the bedroll that was present on the 2nd ed models and older artwork from that time that is not present in the 3rd-9th ed art and models
fox-light713 wrote: Weather or not YOU can see them there or not dose not mean that they are not there.
They are not there. It is not a WW2-style "brim" on the helmets, it is a "bumper" that was all the rage in early 90s sci-fi military design (and you could thank tank helmets for that). You might remember it from Veerhoven's Starship Troopers that in turn inspired the 3.5 Cadian designs (the 2nd ed designs predate the movie). I would bet that I can find an obscure 2000 AD comic where a soldier sports the exact same helmet as the 2nd ed Cadians.
The new Cadians are most prominently influenced by Pacific Theater USMC and then mixed with the 3.5 Cadians. I can't see anything in the new Cadians that is a distinct 2ed reference, just USMC bits and questionable design choices (the webbing/straps).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/12 12:28:47
fox-light713 wrote: Weather or not YOU can see them there or not dose not mean that they are not there.
They are not there. It is not a WW2-style "brim" on the helmets, it is a "bumper" that was all the rage in early 90s sci-fi military design (and you could thank tank helmets for that). You might remember it from Veerhoven's Starship Troopers that in turn inspired the 3.5 Cadian designs (the 2nd ed designs predate the movie). I would bet that I can find an obscure 2000 AD comic where a soldier sports the exact same helmet as the 2nd ed Cadians.
The new Cadians are most prominently influenced by Pacific Theater USMC and then mixed with the 3.5 Cadians. I can't see anything in the new Cadians that is a distinct 2ed reference, just USMC bits and questionable design choices (the webbing/straps).
There is as much Starship Troopers influence on the plastic Cadians as there is Aliens. But the Cadians do not have a SST type helmet or body armor, and their rifles do not come with underslung shotguns. Nor do the helmets or body armor look like Colonial Marines, and again, lasguns do not have underslung grenade launchers.
Sprues can be seen here, and I’m counting two Plasma, Flamer, Melta, Launcher, but only seeing one Longlas equivalent? Might just be me not identifying a second Longlas, so try your own eyes
There's also 2 Hotshot Volley-Guns, they're just very hard to distinguish, as they have scopes, too. You can see one painted being carried by the Kasrkin with some black cloth over his face and with a grenade at the ready. As for the Longlas, I hope it ends up being an option on the TT game, as well.
There's also 2 Hotshot Volley-Guns, they're just very hard to distinguish, as they have scopes, too.
I'm fairly sure those are normal Hellguns but with a different muzzle. They don't appear to have twin barrels (and thus thicker bodies) like the volleyguns.
''The new Kasrkin sprues have enough weapon options to defend an entire planet from Abaddon’s attacks. Too soon? There are two plasma guns, two meltaguns, two grenade launchers, two flamers, two hot-shot volley guns,* ''
Bobthehero wrote: ''The new Kasrkin sprues have enough weapon options to defend an entire planet from Abaddon’s attacks. Too soon? There are two plasma guns, two meltaguns, two grenade launchers, two flamers, two hot-shot volley guns,* ''
One-barreled volleygun? Well, that's strange, but I can live with it.
Unless the painter just forgot to drill/paint the second barrel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/12 17:23:44
Bobthehero wrote: ''The new Kasrkin sprues have enough weapon options to defend an entire planet from Abaddon’s attacks. Too soon? There are two plasma guns, two meltaguns, two grenade launchers, two flamers, two hot-shot volley guns,* ''
One-barreled volleygun? Well, that's strange, but I can live with it.
Unless the painter just forgot to drill/paint the second barrel.
Looks like two barrels to me. Just not sure why they are literally the same body as the regular hot-shot las. Moving to a Rapid Fire weapon maybe? They could have at least added a bipod to make it more obvious on the tabletop.
Miguelsan wrote: I wonder if IG will go back to platoons or units will grow up to 20 guardsman strong like every other non power armor codex?
It'll be whatever's in the box. Rare to see them go outside the box, so to speak.
Votann did, so there is a recent precident there.
Not just Votann, every single recent army. Including Space Marines, even (Black Templars). The box thing is just sad copy-pasta, used alongside the other one (loadout pic of one single cherrypicked squad repeated each time because there are no other examples).
Yeah, I don't see any of supposed 'inspiration'. New Cadians are mix of Space MarineIG designs with US Marines from the 50s for some weird reason. Add a sprinkle of new tacticoolness in knee pads and face wraps/mirrored glasses and it's pretty much it.
It's likely that there's going to be accessory sprues for some of the various regiments shown off as kinda/sorta being "Cadian based". Brimlock Dragoons, Vresh Grenadiers, etc.
Don't forget though that there were "3 new regiments coming in plastic" as of the time we started getting the accurate rumours of DKoK.
I am really getting the sense that while SvsT is great in theory, the result in practice will eventually become so gimmicky and convoluted that 40k may as well go to fixed wound rolls like AoS.
(This is an expression of frustration, not an advocacy for such a change.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/12 23:30:39
Is it just me, or does the rumours from this new Codex sound a bit... bitsy?
And by that I mean you have your Guard army, and the type of Guard army isn't governed by planet, but rather regiment type - which I like! - but then the specialist units are planet-based (Cadian Shock Troops, Kasrkin, Catachan Jungle Fighters).
To me that feels like playing a Codex Space Marine army, but as an elite choice I can take a unit of Sanguinary Guard, and as a FA choice I can take some Ravenwing Bikers. All in the same army. That just seems really odd to me.
Chaos gets away with it because whilst all World Eaters are Berzerkers, not all Berzerkers are World Eaters. Why does a specialist "shock trooper" unit have to be specifically Cadian?
NinthMusketeer wrote: I am really getting the sense that while SvsT is great in theory, the result in practice will eventually become so gimmicky and convoluted that 40k may as well go to fixed wound rolls like AoS.
Hammer of the Emperor is bad enough as it is. I don't ever want to see small arms wounding Shadowswords and Titans on a 4+.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/10/13 00:40:29
Here are the leaks written down by JCMS85 on reddit all credit goes to him.
Regimental Doctrines
Mech infantry - may disembark after moving.
Parade Drill - already given on warhammer community article
Armoured superiority- Sentinels count as 3 models for objective’s. Other tanks 5. Super heavies count as 10
Blitz Division- costs halve PL when working what goes in reserve. Can deploy on turn 2 with the “turn 3” rules for setup
Bombadiers - if a Vox or sentinel can see a enemy unit and is within 12 from an artillery piece add +1 to hit
Heirloom weapons +4 inch range
Brutal Strength - moving and shooting heavy weapons no -1 hit. First turn in combat and +1 str for infantry
Grim Demonour - do negative rolls for combat attrition
Guerilla fighters - ranged attacks more. Than 18 inches away give infantry and sentinels soft cover
Elite shock troops - reroll one hit roll per unit
Industry efficiency - treat Ap1 as AP0
Swift as the wind - infantry gain +1 inch movement. All others gain +2. Also add +1 to charge rolls Trophy hunter - attacks against monsters and vehicles get +1 str
Recon operators - Cavalry and sentinel units get a pre game move must end further than 9 inches away from the enemy. That’s it for doctrines. HOWEVER you must give up “hammer of the emperor” which is massive!
Regimental Orders
In your command phase officers can issue orders 6 inch for regiment and perfectos orders. 12 inch for mechanised orders. If an officer disembarks from a transport it can issue an order as it was in the command phase.
FRFSRF - Heavy 3
Take Aim +1 to hit +1 AP
Fix Bayonets +1 to hit on Melee +1 AP
Take cover - Get light cover if already in light gain dense.
Move Move Move! +2 movement if you chose to advance auto 6 (no roll )
Suppression fire - target infantry unit only. Can only target 1 unit. If 5 or more hits are scored enemy unit subtracts 1 from hit rolls until your next shooting phase.
Tank Orders
Pound them to dust - when using blast weapons double the amount of models on the enemy unit.
Full Throttle - add 2inch movement. Count as stationary if advanced.
Gunners kill on sight - reroll 1’s To hit.
Blitz them!! - add +1 to charge rolls. If a charge is made roll a dice a 4+ inflicts D3 mortal wounds. (Dozer blades add +1 to “hit roll”
Shock and awe - Gain objective secured
Pinning fire - target infantry unit only. If 5 or more hits are made unit subtracts 2 from movement
Other Orders (possibly prefectus/commissar orders) Forwards, for the Emperor! - When shooting,the unit counts as having Remained Stationary if it made a Normal Move or Advanced
Duty and Honour! - The unit can perform actions even if it Fell Back or Advanced, and shooting does not cause actions to fail.
Get Back in the Fight! - The unit can shoot or charge (but not both) in the same turn it Fell Back
At All Costs! - Unit pains Objective Secured (its models each count as 1 extra model if it already has this ability),
Show Them Steel, Show Them Contempt - Add 1 to the unit's Leadership, and its models can ignore mortal wounds on a 5+
Remain Vigilant - units cannot be set up within 12*, and the unit can Hold Steady if charged (and its overwatch hits on a 5+)
Tank Aces
Name Unknown - SUPER-HEAVY model only. This model gains the OFFICER keyword and knows Mechanised Orders. In your Command phase, it can issue one Order, and the unit you select for that Order can be an ASTRA MILITARUM TITANIC unit.
METICULOUS CALIBRATOR – Ignores Enemy Light Cover
MECHANICAL PACK RAT- Transhuman on a tank
VETERAN COMMANDEER - Pick a bonus regimental doctrine
KNIGHT OF PIETY - This model has a 5++ invulnerable save. Ignore mortals on a 5+,
MASTER OF CAMOUFLAGE- Get light cover from ranged attacks over 12 inches away. Titanics must be 18”
STEEL COMMISSAR – Gains Commissar Orders, can order ogryn.
Psychic Powers
TERRIFYING VISIONS - Malediction: warp charge 6. select one enemy unit within 18" Until the start of your next Command phase Subtract 2 from the Leadership + Your opponent cannot select that unit for the Insane Bravery Stratagem and no re-roll for Morale. Also roll 2D6 and if beat the enemy Ld they fail any actions they were doing
GAZE OF THE EMPEROR - Witchfire: warp charge 6. select one enemy model within 12" of and visible. Draw a straight line between any part of that model's base and PsYKER's base. Roll one D6 for that enemy model's unit, and one D6 for each other unit that this line passes over: on a 1-5, the unit being rolled for suffers 1 mortal wound; on a 6, the unit being rolled for suffers D3 mortal wounds, PSYCHIC BARRIER – Blessing: warp charge 6. select one friendly ASTRA MILITARUM unit within 12" of this PSYKER. models in that unit have a 5+ invulnerable save.
NIGHTSHROUD - Blessing: warp charge 6. select one friendly ASTRA MILITARUM unit within 12" of this PsYKER. That unit gains transhit MENTAL SHACKLES - Malediction: warp charge 6. select one enemy unit within 18" of this PsYKER. -2" from the Move + -2 from Advance and charge rolls PSYCHIC MAELSTROM - Witchfire: warp charge 6. roll a number of D6 equal to the result of the Psychic test. for each 5+, the closest enemy within 18" + visible suffers 1 mortal wound (max 6).
Warlord Traits.
- If your warlord is not an officer it must have front line combatant
- FRONT-LINE COMBATANT melee attack: exploding 6s and +1 to wound
- MASTER TACTICIAN – 3 unit redeploy and can go in strategic reserves
- GRAND STRATEGIST – CP refund on a 5+ (per CP spent)
- SUPERIOR TACTICAL TRAINING – Select one type of order the model doesn’t know, it now knows them. E.g. officers can do commissar
orders
- OLD GRUDGES – select enemy unit pregame. Units with 6 inch of warlord have +1 to wound against that unit LEAD BY EXAMPLE - can
issue Orders to its own unit, even though you cannot normally select OFFICER.
Relics
- THE EMPEROR'S BENEDICTION – range 18 Pistol 3 S4 AP1 D2 Abilities: ignore the Look Out, Sir rule. unmodified wound roll of 6 does 1 mortal wound in addition
- TACTICAL AUTO-RELIQUARY OF TYBERIUS- issue +1 order
- DEATH MASK OF OLLANIUS – bearer + their unit gets a 4++
- THE BARBICANT'S KEY Grand – Dark matter crystal/viel of shadows equivalent (e.g. pick up and put down same turn)
- KUROV'S AQUILA – Vect equivalent (e.g., 1 enemy strat costs 1 more CP for the game)
- GATEKEEPER 72” rang.: Blast. Turret Weapon. Heavy D3+6 str 9 ap-3 D3
- RELIC OF LOST Cadia- Cadian only. Once per battle. (Aura): CADIAN INFANTRY in range get +1 WS and BS and attacks and Ld - ORDER OF THE BASTIUM STELLARIS – Transhuman for bearer and unit
- PSY-SIGIL OF SANCTION Psyker model only know +1 power, cast +1 power
- ARMOUR OF GRAF TOSCHENKO bearer gets 2+ save and +1 wound LAURELS OF COMMAND Can issue one order (from a specific
subset, not all orders) in the enemy turn. Once per game
Other Bits:
Core army rules.
- 2 doctrines Scions are now elites but may be taken as troops if your whole detachment is scions (+2 other keywords)
- Chain of command. You must select an officer to be your warlord if your army includes any officers. You can only have 1 commandant in each detachment If you have a “commandant” he must be your warlord. Unless your army contains Lord Solar then he must be your Warlord
- On the scion thing above they are taken in troops instead of elites. So you can’t have them in both slots.
- Platoons are kinda back, different to how we have seen them before (not like back in 2nd/3rd ed). Special Detachment rules (kinda like Dark eldar) and there is a platoon keyword
- Cadian shock troop squads can double up on SW.
- Sniper rifles are Tanith specific now, or elite if in a different army.
- Artillery “are mortal wounds machines.”
- New lord solar character he has a movement of 12 so he is a Calvary model. (Supreme commander)
- No conscripts 😢 (but whiteshields have a datasheet)
- No Veterans
- No Commissar Yarrick
- No special Weapon squads
- No spam of special weapons anymore in storm trooper squads. 4 allowed in a 10 man squad max of 2 the same weapon. 5 man squads get 2 special weapons but can only have 1 of each type max.
- No Pask , Creed or Kell
- Rough riders confirmed to be back
- Ok so hammer of the emperor stayed the same and adds 6" if a leadership test is passed based as long as withing 6" of an officer or... 12" with a vox
- You can play scions as it's own faction but lose a lot of abilities and about 25% of the codex is unusable
- Lord Solar is what allows you to take scions as a troop.
- If creed is taken, she must be your Warlord as well.
- Command squads are back. You attach people to them like the old days. Officer 4 guardsmen. Then a officer of fleet / ordnance / astropath. They all have 1 wound. You can also attach Ogryn body guard which has the “big rule” do if you target the unit you have to use his toughness etc. same as the one previewed in the chaos Ogryn
- Preachers / engineers are still independent and have more wounds etc Orders still spread
Rogal Dorn Stuff:
- This model's twin battle cannon can be replaced with 1 oppressor cannon and 1 co-axial autocannon.
- This model's castigator gatling cannon can be replaced with 1 pulveriser cannon
- This model can be equipped with one of the following: 2 meltaguns; 2 additional heavy stubbers.
- This model can be equipped with one of the following: 2 heavy bolters; 2 multi-meltas.
- This model can be equipped with armoured tracks.
- Bs 4+ T9 2+ save (turret weapon rule)
- Oppressor cannon D6+3 shots Str10 Ap -3 Damage 4 Blast 90 inch range
- Armoured Tracks (upgrade) D1 weapons give you a +1 arm save
- Between 250-280 points and 17 wounds
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/13 01:47:49
Tresson wrote: - No spam of special weapons anymore in storm trooper squads. 4 allowed in a 10 man squad max of 2 the same weapon. 5 man squads get 2 special weapons but can only have 1 of each type max.
I was really hoping this bs would end. it makes even less sense with the 5-man squad limitation.
Tresson wrote: - This model's twin battle cannon can be replaced with 1 oppressor cannon and 1 co-axial autocannon.
- This model's castigator gatling cannon can be replaced with 1 pulveriser cannon
- This model can be equipped with one of the following: 2 meltaguns; 2 additional heavy stubbers.
- This model can be equipped with one of the following: 2 heavy bolters; 2 multi-meltas.
- This model can be equipped with armoured tracks.
- Bs 4+ T9 2+ save (turret weapon rule)
- Oppressor cannon D6+3 shots Str10 Ap -3 Damage 4 Blast 90 inch range
- Armoured Tracks (upgrade) D1 weapons give you a +1 arm save
- Between 250-280 points and 17 wounds
"Oppressor" cannon is an interesting name. So far it sounds ok.
So Scions are getting the Harlequin treatment sorta. TF is a Lord Solar?
Also way to go GW for invalidating a bunch of people's squads of Scions? Went full Plasma or full Melta or full Volley? Well screw you, thats not how the kit is made!
I'm surpremely disappointed that Commissar Yarrick is out of the codex. He's such an iconic character and foil to Ghazzy, I'm hoping he didn't just kick the bucket off-screen or if they just ended up Chekov or Al'Rahem'ed him into the history pages.
Also way to go GW for invalidating a bunch of people's squads of Scions? Went full Plasma or full Melta or full Volley? Well screw you, thats not how the kit is made!
Lord Solar is basically another title for Warmaster, with less bad history attached to the name. So like Lord Solar Macharius.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/13 03:05:02
So to take a stormtrooper army......you have to take an HQ that rides a horse? WTH?
.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase.
The new Cadians are most prominently influenced by Pacific Theater USMC and then mixed with the 3.5 Cadians.
If you put the old flat shoulder armor on that marine and give him a lasgun and some extra armor on his helmet he would fit right into a 2nd cadian look, not exact, but would give a similar feel to the 2nd ed models. The 2nd ed cadian have just as much usmc infuence into the uniforms as the new 2022 cadians. To me the 2022 cadians have returning design elements and details that were present on the old 2nd ed models that were not on the 3.5ed plastics, thusly gives me the impresion that some of the new details on the new 2022 models harken back and reference some of the details that were present on the older 2nd ed models.
The sargent in the 2022 set, to me it looks like the webbing straps start to angle to the center of the back as they round over the shoulders, suggesting that the straps might have a similar style to the 2nd ed models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/13 05:21:11
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Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey
