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Dudeface wrote:
How important is it that aesthetic choices have specific rules representation at this point?

HH is often touted as being "for the hobbyists to customise their guys", so does the visual item they're holding necessitate bespoke rules?

If so then where does that leave being a hobbyist by that definition. Because it feels game design is cramping people's creativity a little as they need positive affirmation from GW that they stuck the relevant bit to the mini.

I think there is a balance between and the line is drawn when something can be way too easily mistaken for something else and/or just becomes a proxy. Mordheim for example has different stats for different hand weapons, unlike WFB, but it known to have been one of the most customisable games out there, hence it’s still alive through the love of enthusiasts for this game.

As far as we know there are individual teams working without any interaction between them to avoid leaks (and better track the leaker) during work or after the initial phase

The problem in this case would be the supervisor not knowing or caring enough to spot the difference before things went to print

In regard that not all is doom and gloom, 2 faction books that are on such a different level is even worse than all of them having no options

Dudeface wrote:
How important is it that aesthetic choices have specific rules representation at this point?

HH is often touted as being "for the hobbyists to customise their guys", so does the visual item they're holding necessitate bespoke rules?

If so then where does that leave being a hobbyist by that definition. Because it feels game design is cramping people's creativity a little as they need positive affirmation from GW that they stuck the relevant bit to the mini.

It's an interesting question, certainly.

When CSM and DA 4.0 came out and people were going nuts lamenting the loss of options, I defended it, saying we can now put cool looking gear on everyone without having to pay the points for what were often gakky abilities. But that was stuff like purity seals, bionics, etc.

But HH mostly didn't even have these do-nothing cosmetic items with points costs in the first place. We're talking about the loss of weapon loadouts (in a game where massive emphasis is put on stat differences between them and a lot of melee is about rock-paper-scissors of weapon matchups) with the accompanying WYSIWYG issues, loss of mobility upgrades, and loss of .entire classes of model with distinct tactical roles (Armistos, Mortificator, Primus Medicae...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
2 faction books that are on such a different level is even worse than all of them having no options

We've seen similarly distinct tiers of product quality based on, probably, the enthusiasm or competence level of particular designers on particular assignments in other places, AoS-to-Warcry and Warcry-to-AoS faction conversions especially come to mind.

Siloing the different faction books to avoid/punish leaks and ending up with massive imbalances in value and versatility between them is so modern GW it hurts. What the feth happened to trying to make the best game you can?

Billicus wrote:
What the feth happened to trying to make the best game you can?

that was replaced by "making the best fantasy display models" some 15 years ago
GW doesn't care about the games (outside as advertising to sell more models) for a long time now, just that some of the niche games did better simply because they were not touched by GW after the original designer tried to make a good game

usually for any other game the rule is to wait for a 2nd Edition so that the initial bugs are removed and you get a better and refined game
while for GW games if you like it one hopes it never gets another edition

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
I’ll see what becomes of Horus Heresy, when the dust settles a bit, but options limitation quickly threw cold water on me.

Just fething why would GW do that? Add 4 LD stats, but reduce the number of builds? Bleh!
Old World is customisation galore, so it’s not like the “no mini- no rules” policy is a group punishment for all the games GW produces. Old World is the only thing that I’m dishing out any money for to GW.
So why taint an already niche game with this hideous new40k list building style? We saw some units discontinued with the release of 2.0, but it was mostly special characters, which is not as horrible as whole unit layouts in my opinion.

Maybe I should’ve kept my 2.0 rule book.
Whatever, I’ll just do the modelling bit, not like I get to play HH anyway. And a 3 year book rotation can feth off, if I wanted subscription type games, I’d play some of that juicy AAA online video game slop

It's unlikely that Horus Heresy was meant to remain a niche game even by the time 2nd edition was announced. It's the other Space Marine game, it got a massive amount of plastic releases and, as hopefully no one will deny any longer, it's riding the three year edition train now. If there is anything niche left about it, it's unrealistic to expect it'll stay that way much longer. GW will want do its level best to further align Horus Heresy with the approach that made 40k so profitable in the last decade. Even if it entails leaving the current players disgruntled as a stepping stone to a wider audience.

 Nevelon wrote:
Sometimes you have to wonder if there are multiple teams, but not getting the same memos.

Memos are for riffraff.

- James Workshop, probably

Dudeface wrote:
How important is it that aesthetic choices have specific rules representation at this point?

HH is often touted as being "for the hobbyists to customise their guys", so does the visual item they're holding necessitate bespoke rules?

If so then where does that leave being a hobbyist by that definition. Because it feels game design is cramping people's creativity a little as they need positive affirmation from GW that they stuck the relevant bit to the mini.

There's a difference between Power Swords/Axes/Lances getting merged into Power Weapons, and load outs being totally removed.

People play WYSIWYG to make life easier for everyone involved. Nobody is going to kick up a huge fuss that a Praetor with Paragon Blade actually has a Paragon Flail but throw in a Siege Breaker with a Chainsword that's actually a Thunderhammer, a Chaplain with a Jump Pack that doesn't have a Jump Pack, and a Librarian on a Jetbike that also doesn't have a Jetbike and it's getting to stupid levels.

 tauist wrote:
Some counterpoints to this discussion, yet again from B&C forums:

"Nearly all the Traitor Legions are leaked at this point.

And its safe to say nearly all the panic and issues were Loyalist specific.

Traitors kept most of their wargear options, gained in places, got more rules, more balanced prices and more fluff.

TSons have 4 pages for each cult plus a Khenetai Jedi Page.

WE have better Caedere weapons and two rites of war (base and heretic).

Those with limited wargear or lost something gained something else, including a large uptick in combi-weapons.

Its not even op or unbalanced internally to my eye, just mass improvements.

I mostly play Traitor so I am laughing, but this is weird.

Honestly, I cannot speak to what management was thinking greenlighting the Loyalist book."

So perhaps not all doom and gloom, hmm?

yeah, that will not lead to resentment at all.... nope

Not Online!!! wrote:

 tauist wrote:
Some counterpoints to this discussion, yet again from B&C forums:

"Nearly all the Traitor Legions are leaked at this point.

And its safe to say nearly all the panic and issues were Loyalist specific.

Traitors kept most of their wargear options, gained in places, got more rules, more balanced prices and more fluff.

TSons have 4 pages for each cult plus a Khenetai Jedi Page.

WE have better Caedere weapons and two rites of war (base and heretic).

Those with limited wargear or lost something gained something else, including a large uptick in combi-weapons.

Its not even op or unbalanced internally to my eye, just mass improvements.

I mostly play Traitor so I am laughing, but this is weird.

Honestly, I cannot speak to what management was thinking greenlighting the Loyalist book."

So perhaps not all doom and gloom, hmm?

yeah, that will not lead to resentment at all.... nope

So... come to the Dark Side, we have cookies?

Well... good thing that Blood Angels actually went better. No longer+1 to wound on charge. It's +1 in strengh on charge!

Although you can no longer take full heavy squad with assault cannons. In exchange Predator with assault cannons is finally usable.

 BorderCountess wrote:
So... come to the Dark Side, we have cookies?

HH3... the civil war between traitor legions.

 Sotahullu wrote:
Well... good thing that Blood Angels actually went better. No longer+1 to wound on charge. It's +1 in strengh on charge!

Although you can no longer take full heavy squad with assault cannons. In exchange Predator with assault cannons is finally usable.

Unless they've done something wacky with wound rolls this edition +1 to wound is as good or better than +1 strength

Genuinely quite upsetting reading comments about people who now have armies with 2/3rds are unusable. Absolute despair in some cases of people not knowing what to do.

And the saddest thing (and in some ways this will be a repeat of the death of WHFB those years ago) will be the sundering of communities. Some will use the new rules some will not, some will change games or stop altogether. HH really had such an enviable community of close-knit players and hobbyists - I think that long lifespan of v1 helped a lot with that. And I wonder if GW ever stops to think there is a human cost to social groups when they do these things - WHFB dying actually made a grown man I knew cry, because he knew the days of travel to tournaments with close groups of friends were over - rather than just trying to get everyone to buy an unnecessary set of new rules and their bottom line.

 Pacific wrote:
Genuinely quite upsetting reading comments about people who now have armies with 2/3rds are unusable. Absolute despair in some cases of people not knowing what to do.

And the saddest thing (and in some ways this will be a repeat of the death of WHFB those years ago) will be the sundering of communities. Some will use the new rules some will not, some will change games or stop altogether. HH really had such an enviable community of close-knit players and hobbyists - I think that long lifespan of v1 helped a lot with that. And I wonder if GW ever stops to think there is a human cost to social groups when they do these things - WHFB dying actually made a grown man I knew cry, because he knew the days of travel to tournaments with close groups of friends were over - rather than just trying to get everyone to buy an unnecessary set of new rules and their bottom line.

I don't like the rules, but a lot of the "my army is 2/3 unusable" is often largely over dramaticisied.

Dudeface wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Genuinely quite upsetting reading comments about people who now have armies with 2/3rds are unusable. Absolute despair in some cases of people not knowing what to do.

And the saddest thing (and in some ways this will be a repeat of the death of WHFB those years ago) will be the sundering of communities. Some will use the new rules some will not, some will change games or stop altogether. HH really had such an enviable community of close-knit players and hobbyists - I think that long lifespan of v1 helped a lot with that. And I wonder if GW ever stops to think there is a human cost to social groups when they do these things - WHFB dying actually made a grown man I knew cry, because he knew the days of travel to tournaments with close groups of friends were over - rather than just trying to get everyone to buy an unnecessary set of new rules and their bottom line.

I don't like the rules, but a lot of the "my army is 2/3 unusable" is often largely over dramaticisied.

It literally, objectively isn't. People built theme lists around options that are now just gone. Volkite-armed breacher company? Oopsie-poopsie, gone. A guy I know lovingly converted over a dozen characters for his Fists and now all but one have wildly illegal loadouts. Again, Tartaros Terminator units can't take powerfists, the default melee option provided in the plastic kit since its inception. Even the places that normally *enforce* positivity with moderation like FB groups and the 30k discord are overwhelmingly negative and filled with people upset about how much of their army has been invalidated.

This isn't the usual suspects having a moan and blowing things out of proportion.

Well Thallax are different now.

Min. unit size is 6 with option for 3 more, not Line or Vanguard unit and is counted as Support unit but they can now freely change stock lightning guns to photon, plasma-fusil or multi-melta (so you can now have all multi-melta). And 3+ save.

They left the comments on in their "Learn to Play" YouTube video. That was... Brave?

 Sotahullu wrote:
Well Thallax are different now.

Min. unit size is 6 with option for 3 more, not Line or Vanguard unit and is counted as Support unit but they can now freely change stock lightning guns to photon, plasma-fusil or multi-melta (so you can now have all multi-melta). And 3+ save.

Also down to 2W in an edition with a lot of D2 guns, so a real glass cannon now.

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 Sotahullu wrote:
Well Thallax are different now.

Min. unit size is 6 with option for 3 more, not Line or Vanguard unit and is counted as Support unit but they can now freely change stock lightning guns to photon, plasma-fusil or multi-melta (so you can now have all multi-melta). And 3+ save.

Also down to 2W in an edition with a lot of D2 guns, so a real glass cannon now.

And guns with D2 are not exactly that common.

Only 20 points for Thallax is actually quite good.

Not too shabby. 3+, especially with Plasma largely de-fanged is quite welcome on them.

Enough to balance out the loss of a wound? Possibly.

Linky to the Thallax leaks?

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Genuinely quite upsetting reading comments about people who now have armies with 2/3rds are unusable. Absolute despair in some cases of people not knowing what to do.

And the saddest thing (and in some ways this will be a repeat of the death of WHFB those years ago) will be the sundering of communities. Some will use the new rules some will not, some will change games or stop altogether. HH really had such an enviable community of close-knit players and hobbyists - I think that long lifespan of v1 helped a lot with that. And I wonder if GW ever stops to think there is a human cost to social groups when they do these things - WHFB dying actually made a grown man I knew cry, because he knew the days of travel to tournaments with close groups of friends were over - rather than just trying to get everyone to buy an unnecessary set of new rules and their bottom line.

I don't like the rules, but a lot of the "my army is 2/3 unusable" is often largely over dramaticisied.

It literally, objectively isn't. People built theme lists around options that are now just gone. Volkite-armed breacher company? Oopsie-poopsie, gone. A guy I know lovingly converted over a dozen characters for his Fists and now all but one have wildly illegal loadouts. Again, Tartaros Terminator units can't take powerfists, the default melee option provided in the plastic kit since its inception. Even the places that normally *enforce* positivity with moderation like FB groups and the 30k discord are overwhelmingly negative and filled with people upset about how much of their army has been invalidated.

This isn't the usual suspects having a moan and blowing things out of proportion.

Is it so hard to use the first models as power weapons? What was it about volkite breachers you loved? They'd still be lovingly painted and assembled as breachers with those guns.

People claim they come to HH because theyre old school 40k players. Changing some loadout for edition changes isn't exactly unusual in old 40k.

Dudeface wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Genuinely quite upsetting reading comments about people who now have armies with 2/3rds are unusable. Absolute despair in some cases of people not knowing what to do.

And the saddest thing (and in some ways this will be a repeat of the death of WHFB those years ago) will be the sundering of communities. Some will use the new rules some will not, some will change games or stop altogether. HH really had such an enviable community of close-knit players and hobbyists - I think that long lifespan of v1 helped a lot with that. And I wonder if GW ever stops to think there is a human cost to social groups when they do these things - WHFB dying actually made a grown man I knew cry, because he knew the days of travel to tournaments with close groups of friends were over - rather than just trying to get everyone to buy an unnecessary set of new rules and their bottom line.

I don't like the rules, but a lot of the "my army is 2/3 unusable" is often largely over dramaticisied.

It literally, objectively isn't. People built theme lists around options that are now just gone. Volkite-armed breacher company? Oopsie-poopsie, gone. A guy I know lovingly converted over a dozen characters for his Fists and now all but one have wildly illegal loadouts. Again, Tartaros Terminator units can't take powerfists, the default melee option provided in the plastic kit since its inception. Even the places that normally *enforce* positivity with moderation like FB groups and the 30k discord are overwhelmingly negative and filled with people upset about how much of their army has been invalidated.

This isn't the usual suspects having a moan and blowing things out of proportion.

Is it so hard to use the first models as power weapons? What was it about volkite breachers you loved? They'd still be lovingly painted and assembled as breachers with those guns.

People claim they come to HH because theyre old school 40k players. Changing some loadout for edition changes isn't exactly unusual in old 40k.

Come on man, even if you don't personally care either way failing to grasp why many if not most people are, on this level, is so unlikely it seems feigned.

This isn't just about local squads of mates though, with the changes to units it means no events outside your specific game group if you're just house ruling the things you want to keep.

House ruling is great, until you're not in the house anymore. I'm not picking up HH3, that means no WHW events, and likely no wider community events for me.

It's already brutal in my part of the country to get a Heresy event, with one of the largest teams shutting down after their first HH2 event due to family life taking over.
There were other groups but it's damn near impossible to get space when there are maybe 2 locations that are within a reasonable distance.

So with this edition I'm saying goodbye to all that and that's truly upsetting.

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Genuinely quite upsetting reading comments about people who now have armies with 2/3rds are unusable. Absolute despair in some cases of people not knowing what to do.

And the saddest thing (and in some ways this will be a repeat of the death of WHFB those years ago) will be the sundering of communities. Some will use the new rules some will not, some will change games or stop altogether. HH really had such an enviable community of close-knit players and hobbyists - I think that long lifespan of v1 helped a lot with that. And I wonder if GW ever stops to think there is a human cost to social groups when they do these things - WHFB dying actually made a grown man I knew cry, because he knew the days of travel to tournaments with close groups of friends were over - rather than just trying to get everyone to buy an unnecessary set of new rules and their bottom line.

I don't like the rules, but a lot of the "my army is 2/3 unusable" is often largely over dramaticisied.

It literally, objectively isn't. People built theme lists around options that are now just gone. Volkite-armed breacher company? Oopsie-poopsie, gone. A guy I know lovingly converted over a dozen characters for his Fists and now all but one have wildly illegal loadouts. Again, Tartaros Terminator units can't take powerfists, the default melee option provided in the plastic kit since its inception. Even the places that normally *enforce* positivity with moderation like FB groups and the 30k discord are overwhelmingly negative and filled with people upset about how much of their army has been invalidated.

This isn't the usual suspects having a moan and blowing things out of proportion.

Is it so hard to use the first models as power weapons? What was it about volkite breachers you loved? They'd still be lovingly painted and assembled as breachers with those guns.

People claim they come to HH because theyre old school 40k players. Changing some loadout for edition changes isn't exactly unusual in old 40k.

Come on man, even if you don't personally care either way failing to grasp why many if not most people are, on this level, is so unlikely it seems feigned.

Not really, it isn't like we've been through this several times in their other games. I can understand why theyre upset, but largely I think they fail to portray the reason fluently.

Consuls have fixed loaoduts, is that less cool? Maybe? Does it invalidate your loadout? No, because the model has the rules as printed and there are no options so it can look however you want it to look and mean whatever it means to you.

What was so important about the hammer being a hammer or whatever that it's no longer usable?

Maybe im more pragmatic with my minis and like the way they look, will use them as I see fit etc.

I get more annoyed at the word salad rules and complicated not complex attitude they've applied to core rules.

That's an extremely reductive take on this Dudeface and I'm surprised at that.

This isn't just about Siege Breakers only having Hammers.
This is about no more mounted characters (sorry White Scars), or no more jump pack characters except Moritats (sorry Raven Guard, World Eaters, and Blood Angels).

This is the nail in the coffin for what was the one hope of Heresy not going the way of 40k and AoS with set character loadouts and no options for units beyond the kit limits.

 Gert wrote:
That's an extremely reductive take on this Dudeface and I'm surprised at that.

This isn't just about Siege Breakers only having Hammers.
This is about no more mounted characters (sorry White Scars), or no more jump pack characters except Moritats (sorry Raven Guard, World Eaters, and Blood Angels).

This is the nail in the coffin for what was the one hope of Heresy not going the way of 40k and AoS with set character loadouts and no options for units beyond the kit limits.

I accept the loss of jump packs and bikes as a problem. Are they 2/3 of an army though?

Dudeface wrote:

 Gert wrote:
That's an extremely reductive take on this Dudeface and I'm surprised at that.

This isn't just about Siege Breakers only having Hammers.
This is about no more mounted characters (sorry White Scars), or no more jump pack characters except Moritats (sorry Raven Guard, World Eaters, and Blood Angels).

This is the nail in the coffin for what was the one hope of Heresy not going the way of 40k and AoS with set character loadouts and no options for units beyond the kit limits.

I accept the loss of jump packs and bikes as a problem. Are they 2/3 of an army though?

Yes? Rite of war armies? The fact that HH armies are literaly built that way?

well, where these traitor leaks? Link please, I wish to dive into the salt water

They changed the loadouts for basic units like veterans. Like it or not, a lot of players will have built up their squads using the options they were previously allowed to have, that will now not be usable (I don't think the "since x isn't an option anymore nobody will be confused if you use a model with x and you won't have to explain why it isn't wysiwyg" argument is a reasonable one). It's the equivalent of saying in the next edition of main 40k, intercessor sergeants can't have melee weapons anymore, or something like that - it'd feth a lot of people.