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Giant humans in armor are boring, and who's to say only Chaos can have interesting big monsters?

So I propose: a dreadnought primarch.

Bring back any one of the loyalist primarchs as a dread, build a lot of drama and angst with Guillaman feeling guilty about his brother's fate etc etc. And it would be easy to take them out of the spotlight as need - back to dreadnought slumber, undergoing maintenance and such.

Latest news, they're going back to templates, armour facings and part damage as per 2nd ed.

Salt as needed, but I hear the cardboard deff dread line will be expanded in order to cut the head off the snake of these paper crafting maniacs that are destroying Gws margins.

Also bringing back an exclusive limited retro line for the enthusiast of snap fit box set minis. Bolter holding marine, smiling gretchin and axe and bolt pistol Goff all back in the mix. RRP 70 USD per mini but only unavailable between 12:00 and 12:03 pm on the 30/2/23

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I’m still firmly of the opinion that, if you want to play with Primarchs, you should go play Heresy. Bringing back one Loyalist Primarch felt like a misstep. Bringing more back just totally changes the feel of 40K to me.

It's not just Girlyman. The shift in the background is far wider and taking out only one component won't change that. 8th ed and the lead up to it is proper tabloid material.

"Reanimated rock star: I'll die for a good show, but I'd come back for hot Xenos tail!"
"Arch-enemy shatters Cadia, takes hundred year vacation!"
"Mars man pulls army of super soldiers out of shiny metal ass!"
"Imperium Nihilus cut off! Space weather out of control! Travel suspended!"
"Enterprising arms dealer on travel suspension: Hold my beer!"

GW is committed to writing the background in a certain style that isn't what it used to be. No Primarchs, one Primarch, ten Primarchs, it just doesn't matter. The whole thing might be better if it was all written in Regimental Standard style, but unfortunately GW is super serious in tone these days while writing their Saturday morning cartoons.

MaxT wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
There's not much to go with saturday cartoon style fluff gw had to adopt to give "ongoing story" or at least appearance of it.


And in the end models first, fluff and rules way behind. Once loyalist primarch model　gets designed he gets inserted to fluff. If somebody from fluff department refuses another is found to replace him.

I don't think you're really understand how big a deal bringing back another loyalist would be. They aren't just some normal character they can put in without having to change the core of the setting yet again. That you think they'll do that on a whim is absurd, and so is your assumption that they are so uncaring about the integrity of their setting that they'd undermine it because a single model would sell. They will no doubt evaluate various different factors when it comes to deciding what they're going to do, it won't at all be as simple as just "money".

Is there even any evidence that Guilliman was some extremely popular model that sold well beyond normal expectations?

It’s not like Gulliman was released a few months ago, it’s been over 5 years. Progressing the story with a new loyalist primarch 5 years after the first one isn’t exactly “undermining the setting”.

And they've put all that stuff to such good use that it's reached a point where those additions have been pretty much exhausted just how....? They're only 4 novels into the series telling the story about it, even.

It is undermining to once again give what is effectively yet another huge overhaul to the core of the setting before having really done much with that, and even more when it would involve affecting the foundational aspects even further by moving it closer to having a focus on big important demigods who have to be involved in everything when that goes against the Themes of the Imperium even more.

 ScarletRose wrote:
Giant humans in armor are boring, and who's to say only Chaos can have interesting big monsters?

So I propose: a dreadnought primarch.

Bring back any one of the loyalist primarchs as a dread, build a lot of drama and angst with Guillaman feeling guilty about his brother's fate etc etc. And it would be easy to take them out of the spotlight as need - back to dreadnought slumber, undergoing maintenance and such.

Why go for a Dreadnought when we already have readily available Loyalist options for werewolf Primarch and shadowy birdman Primarch?

However many Primarchs they bring back I’ll continue to never buy a single named character. Named characters make the40k galaxy feel small. I call it the Skywalker effect.

Your warriors are but a few amongst countless billions but they’re still dwarfed in scale by the vast, cold emptiness of the galaxy … or you can have Star Wars style space opera where every planet is just one village and every story involves the same dozen characters because the galaxy is a tiny wee place.

I’ll stick with the former, thanks.

 Geifer wrote:
...The whole thing might be better if it was all written in Regimental Standard style...

Tangent, but you mentioning the Regimental Standard made me realize that I hadn't seen any recently. Turns out they stopped posting those almost exactly a year ago now.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
Giant humans in armor are boring, and who's to say only Chaos can have interesting big monsters?

So I propose: a dreadnought primarch.

Bring back any one of the loyalist primarchs as a dread, build a lot of drama and angst with Guillaman feeling guilty about his brother's fate etc etc. And it would be easy to take them out of the spotlight as need - back to dreadnought slumber, undergoing maintenance and such.

Why go for a Dreadnought when we already have readily available Loyalist options for werewolf Primarch and shadowy birdman Primarch?

Because Dreadnought.
Dreadnoughts are like victory. They need no explanation.

 waefre_1 wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
...The whole thing might be better if it was all written in Regimental Standard style...

Tangent, but you mentioning the Regimental Standard made me realize that I hadn't seen any recently. Turns out they stopped posting those almost exactly a year ago now.

Makes you wonder what happened, if the author left and GW just hasn't found a replacement or if there was a change in direction the Regimental Standard no longer fits.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Do NOT get my hopes up for this. I've been waiting many years for the Lion to return, and despite rumors he hasn't yet. I'll believe it when I see it.

World Eaters-wise, I'm not planning on picking them up or anything, but I'd love to see them get not only Angron, but also some kind of Berzerkers-riding-Juggernauts unit. They have something like that in AoS (Skullcrushers?), so we need one for 40k as well. Khornegors would be less exciting to me, but honestly I could see them getting a tertiary Troops unit kind of like Poxwalkers or Tzaangors.

The lion's had rules and a CAD since early/mid 8th. Just hasn't been put into production.

So has Russ.

They might have finally pulled the trigger on producing the lion.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
<EDIT> I also think they will be pushing firstborn to Heresy and Legending them in 40K proper this edition, but... we'll see.

I'm not an expert on space marine lore, but don't the vast majority of current firstborn units wear armor types that didn't exist during the heresy?

Yes, and almost all unit types for Firstborn are incompatible with the Heresy army list.

Granted, the last time I did anything with HH was with the 6mm Space Marine/Epic rules back in the day, but are the loadouts that different from regular 40K? And am I misremembering that the Mark VII (Aquila?) came out at the end of the Heresy, in time to be used for the following Scouring?

Despite that, I can imagine GW doing a bit of shuffling and retconning to shift “modern” firstborn minis to be usable in HH/Post-HH scouring games.

yes the load outs are differant. for one thing HH tac squads are orginized more akin to primaris squads (all one weapon) the legions where very differantly ordered. the thing is, for your "theory" to be true, GW woulda had to have included things like indomadus termies and castaferrix dreads in the core book and promoted them, as opposed to putting them in a supplement specificly because they "fit less in the aestetics we've developed for the heresy"

we're more likely to see GW retire firstborns outright, and make the SOB and CSM rhinos the new deimos ones then we are to see GW shift aging space marine kits into the HH "for reasons"

I am almost certain that GW is gonna forge the heresy range forward into the scouring era, which gives them the excuse for a lot of the firstborn kits to show up

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, and it was insufferable.

Marines are Marines. It's not like you're using Chaos Marines or Primaris Marines to rep Heresy-era Legions.

Even chaos marines aren't the worst.

Heck, I like the thousand sons 40k ascetic for 30k tsons better then their forgeworld bits.

 Jidmah wrote:

Tallonian4th wrote:
The 'no new loyalist Primarchs' sentiment seems to be very strong, yet no one seems to bat an eye when a traitor Primarch comes back. As someone not deep into the lore can someone explain why one is good but the other bad please?

In addition to what GaroRobe said, there is the issue that most loyal Primarchs know quite well what the Emperor said and did, and all of them have fought their entire life and sacrificed a lot to make that vision come true. Few of them would show the same patience and pragmatism as Gulliman towards the twisted abomination of their father's ideas that the Imperium has become.
Most primarchs simply have no love for humans and aren't exactly adept at anything but waging war. The high lords of terra and the ecclesiarchy should consider themselves lucky that none other than the primarch of the Ultramarines returned.
While Dorn might just voice is displeasure by killing a few billion people and smacking about the fanatics of his former legion, I wouldn't put it beyond the Lion to outright start a galaxy spanning civil war, fracturing the Imperium into two factions.

For this reason many of the returners would cause a massive change to the lore of the Imperium, with no real way to "go back" or keep the previous lore alive.

This is quite different from the entire cast of heretic primarchs popping up everywhere, as they are essentially just yet another big bad threat to the galaxy and they already hate each other's guts anyways.

The Lion is, in my eye, way more pragmatic than this. And he has worked with Guilliman before. Dorn was the true believer in his father, and less so the imperium and probably would throw a fit. The Lion I think would be more than willing to try and reshape the system from inside it, just like G man is doing, though with a lot more skullduggery and cloak and dagger stuff then G man is adapt at. The main risk tween the lion and guilliman is that the lion might want to be in charge.

 Jidmah wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Vulkan was always the one that was most caring for normal humans. He knew he was more powerful than normal humans, but he never thought that made him "better", and it was a trait he taught in his Legion/chapter. If any of the Loyalists would come back he'd likely make the smallest splash in the fluff pool.

I agree, and as said earlier in this thread, Jaghatai would probably be similar. However, neither is particularly high on the lists of primarchs people are asking for - the one you see most commonly are the Lion, Dorn and Russ, and I think it's highly unlikely that any of them will put up with the gak that's going on or even listen to Roboute at all.

That being said, shaking up the fluff isn't beyond GW. Hell, they tore the galaxy in half with a good chunk of the Imperium almost unreachable and left to fend for themselves. This basically mirrors the downfall of the Holy Roman Empire. Do you know what the HRE had? Two capitals, and two Popes. If the Lion did come back his "home" is now a giant spaceship. It could be written that he takes command of the far side of the rift, RG takes the other side. They are technically on the same side, although with tensions, both claiming to be way of the future. Each side of the rift run with slightly different flavors.

That wouldn't exactly be "shaking it up" but more like smashing it to pieces. I'd totally like a development like that, but I can see why people who enjoy the current fluff don't, and it's also the reason why writing the return of a loyal primarch is a lot more difficult than "oh, and Logan suddenly appeared blew up the fortress monastery of the Teal Tortoise chapter".

I think Russ specifically would take a look at the imperium, spit on the floor, and tell guilliman that he's doing his own thing and to not bother him.

Which, like, is what Russ did after the heresy anyways. Told guilliman to stuff his rules and not bother him.

Chikout wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
So you think they just design and release whatever with no thought or plan or direction to what they're doing. Alright then.

Obviously not. The designers get told what to do first by a higher up and then everyone else plays catch up.

It's this part of the process that is the biggest mystery. There have been lots of interviews with various members of staff who all talk about the fact that the miniatures come first but never an interview with whoever it is who decides what gets made next.
Even with the likes of James Hewitt who was pretty candid after he left we haven't heard anything about this stage of the process.

Because it depends.

Sometimes its a suit going "Hey, we need another marine unit to fill this whole/boost our numbers" sometimes its a designer planning something and bringing it to the suits and making an argument for why this model would be cool and worth producing. And often it's kind of both, the people making the models are no less hired for their passion then the rules writers, they love designing 40k stuff.

WebwayWarrior wrote:
Latest news, they're going back to templates, armour facings and part damage as per 2nd ed.

Salt as needed, but I hear the cardboard deff dread line will be expanded in order to cut the head off the snake of these paper crafting maniacs that are destroying Gws margins.

Also bringing back an exclusive limited retro line for the enthusiast of snap fit box set minis. Bolter holding marine, smiling gretchin and axe and bolt pistol Goff all back in the mix. RRP 70 USD per mini but only unavailable between 12:00 and 12:03 pm on the 30/2/23

I have had it hinted to me that 10th will be a big rules reset. But only very obliquely. Like an eyebrow raise level of obliquely.

I hope if they ever get around to reintroducing Corvus Corax they make his model a pair, one in his normal human primarch form, and the other in his giant monstrous were-raven form from his time in the warp. When you play them on the table top you start out as the normal primarch form, but you can roll to transform into bird mode and switch out the model.


...Honestly I would dig something like that for Leman Russ too since he was also lost in the warp for thousands of years like Corvus. A normal first model, and then a second model that is a giant werewolf form.

 Geifer wrote:

Makes you wonder what happened, if the author left and GW just hasn't found a replacement or if there was a change in direction the Regimental Standard no longer fits.

I guess it's the same issue than with the Onion; the actual lore has become so laughable that satire can no longer top that.

I think its more that GW comics are extremely haphazard in appearances. Anyone recall that fairly decently drawn one with a Rogue Trader heading off, which got as far as getting on the ship and blasting off and then vanished?


I suspect its because they are likely little passion projects or short term contracts that either don't pan out for the artist or which lose steam and fizzle away. Plus they don't generate revenue directly so that likely accoutns for some of the appear and disappear.


Another thing to consider is that it might just be a few things like that got dropped during lockdowns and such and just weren't top priority for getting brought back. Ergo they get forgotten or slip through the cracks as things speed up and get back to normal again.

stratigo wrote:
I have had it hinted to me that 10th will be a big rules reset. But only very obliquely. Like an eyebrow raise level of obliquely.

Even by GW standards though, I can't imagine they are issuing a new set of Marine supplement codexes just before 10th with no model support (as is rumoured) if 10th is going to tear up the ruleset to the extent they wouldn't be usable.

And I know people would say "it wouldn't be the first time" but it would be the first time they'd do something like that without models to sell off the back since there are no chapter characters coming as per the same rumours.

Don't get me wrong, strategem bloat is out of control and an 8th ed style reset is needed, I just don't think it fits the evidence we have.

GW has shown a somewhat blind eye toward paper printed rules material bloat. My feeling is that the yare riding the wave of it selling and that at some point it will come crashing down when they release too much. Heck Daughters of Khaine got two Battletomes almost back to back without any major model update (they got one new model)

 Crimson wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Makes you wonder what happened, if the author left and GW just hasn't found a replacement or if there was a change in direction the Regimental Standard no longer fits.

I guess it's the same issue than with the Onion; the actual lore has become so laughable that satire can no longer top that.

I don't know if that idea is hilarious or sad.

 The Phazer wrote:

stratigo wrote:
I have had it hinted to me that 10th will be a big rules reset. But only very obliquely. Like an eyebrow raise level of obliquely.

Even by GW standards though, I can't imagine they are issuing a new set of Marine supplement codexes just before 10th with no model support (as is rumoured) if 10th is going to tear up the ruleset to the extent they wouldn't be usable.

And I know people would say "it wouldn't be the first time" but it would be the first time they'd do something like that without models to sell off the back since there are no chapter characters coming as per the same rumours.

Don't get me wrong, strategem bloat is out of control and an 8th ed style reset is needed, I just don't think it fits the evidence we have.

What kind of reliability are we attributing to new Marine supplements in 9th ed? I know people have been talking about another Marine codex in this edition, but never quoted a reliable source that I saw. Supplements is completely new to me.

It seems like there is precious little of 9th ed left and still three codices with larger model releases to come.

Personally I don't know what to make of the idea that 10th ed is a reset. On the one hand, at the time work started on it 40k would have sold quite well and made GW a lot of money, so why fix what ain't broke? On the other hand, they've been bloating the game in turbo mode over the last to editions and they might be uncharacteristically proactive in avoiding a slump in popularity and sales.

from Chapter Master Valrak, today.

Himself says to take it with the amount of salt you want.
It comes from another source than usual. Accuracy may not be so good as his previous sets of rumors.

In summary :
10th edition for 2023. New starter box with marines as usual. But 10th edition would be a hard reset, so indexes à la 8th edition are to be expected. Upcoming codexes (Daemons, Votann, Astra Militarum) are supposed to be of very short usage.

Apart from that there is another rumor of Epic 40.000 coming back, focussed on the Horus Heresy period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8AG504PDRo

I'd heard some of these. It was always likely 9th would be my last edition, but if 10th is a hard reset, it's a virtual guarantee.

As for Epic, Heresy is not an ideal choice for a setting- GW doesn't need another game that excludes Xenos. The Epic scale Tyranid Hierophant is still one of my favourite GW models of all time, and the Forgeworld 40k version was a terrible disappointment.

An Epic that excludes the possibility for such a model to return to the table top is not an Epic worth investing in. Have fun Marine players.

At least there will probably be Squats.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
from Chapter Master Valrak, today.

Himself says to take it with the amount of salt you want.
It comes from another source than usual. Accuracy may not be so good as his previous sets of rumors.

In summary :
10th edition for 2023. New starter box with marines as usual. But 10th edition would be a hard reset, so indexes à la 8th edition are to be expected. Upcoming codexes (Daemons, Votann, Astra Militarum) are supposed to be of very short usage.

Apart from that there is another rumor of Epic 40.000 coming back, focussed on the Horus Heresy period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8AG504PDRo

Honestly you could flip a coin and get to this sort of result.

On one side of the coin, 10th edition continues as 9th edition did, using the same codexes.
On the other side of the coin, big reset, chucking the baby out with the bathwater and doing indexes.

Place your bets. You can explain your logic and reasoning all day long but it wont change the outcome whatever happens.

Personally? I'd prefer a hard reset. 9th edition core rules are great, but the codexes have added such unnecessary complexity. That, plus the trend of GW giving every faction a 'super unit character' (primarch, ghaz, silent king, etc) is something I'd rather see them address in a meaningful way (restriction of certain characters/units to particular detachments or point levels, etc)

Epic Horus Heresy will still sell like absolute hotcakes and make GW millions of dollars hand-over-fist for a much lower initial investment than doing 40k at that scale. I'll buy the hell out of it either way.

I kinda doubt 10th is a complete reboot with a return to index status, but in a way I'd kind of welcome that. Working from a common baseline for every army is a better way to go about updating things rather than trying to build off the bones of the previous editions book.

That being said, Id like for GW to just acknowledge that the concept of an "edition" is basically dead when they are basically reworking the entire game every 6 months with the GT mission packs anyway. Why even bother with the big hardback book anymore when they republish the entire core rulebook in the GT season books anyway? Just make the GT season books the "editions" and update the core rules that way.

If it's not going to fix the awful IGOUGO system there's really no reason to release a new edition at this point.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
If it's not going to fix the awful IGOUGO system there's really no reason to release a new edition at this point.

Am I misunderstanding what you mean? Isn't this 40k (and WHFB, AoS, and the other games) have been since the start?

By fix I'm sure he means replace with an integrated turn mechanic.

PenitentJake wrote:
I'd heard some of these. It was always likely 9th would be my last edition, but if 10th is a hard reset, it's a virtual guarantee.
.

Totally with you here. I have zero intention of restarting a new codex purchase cycle. So that either means I just ride out 9th and skip 10th (totally fine by me, skipped all of 5th, 6th and most of 7th), or I’m getting codexes through other means.

Epic HH on the other hand, I’d be all in. It’s how I started.

A complete reset? Ditching all the Codices and everything so far?

Seems unrealistic, especially with this rules-base being so young.

Feels overly optimistic, yeah.

Someone clearly has a thought or two about Reactions, so we might see that worked in.

PenitentJake wrote:
I'd heard some of these. It was always likely 9th would be my last edition, but if 10th is a hard reset, it's a virtual guarantee.

As for Epic, Heresy is not an ideal choice for a setting- GW doesn't need another game that excludes Xenos. The Epic scale Tyranid Hierophant is still one of my favourite GW models of all time, and the Forgeworld 40k version was a terrible disappointment.

An Epic that excludes the possibility for such a model to return to the table top is not an Epic worth investing in. Have fun Marine players.

At least there will probably be Squats.

The epic rumors has always been simply combining titanicus and aerialis with some new epic etc tank stuff..
Heresy is just the easiest way to do this since half of it is already there.

Also I’d expect the 10th edition reset may have a little to do with the survey Gw put out several months ago… they are going to make changes to strategems… I don’t expect a full on 8th edition rules overhaul. I do expect alot of codex bloat and supplement bloat to no longer be match play legal. With a new core rulebook with only slight small new edition changes.. (such as terrain and other fiddly rules).

EviscerationPlague wrote:
If it's not going to fix the awful IGOUGO system there's really no reason to release a new edition at this point.

True. Although you need to remember that GW is pretty old-fashioned in that regard.

 Strg Alt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
If it's not going to fix the awful IGOUGO system there's really no reason to release a new edition at this point.

True. Although you need to remember that GW is pretty old-fashioned in that regard.

Yep. When it comes to 40k, GW seem pretty intent to stick their heads in the sand and stick to the one plan that they decided was what would work from here on out. New edition every 3 years.

The main issue they're facing is people are dropping from 40k to do other things. Content creators are seeing it all over the place. Viewership of competitive 40k games is down. Many have shifted to Tempest of War for the extra interest. The problem isn't the core rules of 9th edition, it's the mass of stratagems, layered rules, overcomplicated list-building options, and the mess of a command point system.

An irony is that many of the other games that GW makes have MUCH more elegant solutions to many of those problems. AoS with the way they build battalions is pretty straightforward and their command points and command abilities are more universal. Kill Team lets you use some abilities at the start of the turn that affect your whole force, and others that are made for individual circumstances, but there aren't 20 of each, just about 5-6 or so. Warcry has all of a faction's abilities printed on a single large card. 30k introduced Reactions, that are limited and universal, with each Legion getting a special reaction they can use once per game.

Meanwhile, in 40k, a Nob on Smasha Squig has a specific stratagem for charging again in case the mortal wounds it does on the charge end up taking enemies out of engagement range, which is a very 'gotcha' unfun thing to have in your pocket. It also only affects a single unit out of the entire Ork roster in a highly specific circumstance. The Sisters of Battle Immolator has a stratagem that only affects it if it's equipped with the flamer options. Why aren't these abilities baked into the unit? Or better yet: why do these units have these ultra-specific abilities in the first place? Their band-aid for many power armor factions, Armor of Contempt, requires you to change the AP values of every single weapon that you use against certain factions, which does nothing but slow down and complicate the game.

10th edition desperately needs to flatten and strip out a bunch of the chunkier, crunchier rules. Give each faction maybe 6 flavorful stratagems, chop out the 'make your own subfaction' rules (they've all been garbage anyway) and flatten list-building. You get 3 command points per battle round, period, and if you don't use them, they go away and are reset the next battle round, no matter what detachments you decide to make your army out of.

Those are just some of my complaints and notes on what I'd like to see, just my opinion, so nobody hop up and get hostile now. All I'm trying to say is a reset for 10th would probably be welcome by many hobbyists that have lost interest in the insanity of the crunch that you need to work through for 40k.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A complete reset? Ditching all the Codices and everything so far?

Seems unrealistic, especially with this rules-base being so young.

Maybe, MAYBE, if GW switched to an online rule system with points and rules in the app?

Maybe?

They've moved towards a living rule book model with FAQs and point changes that make substantial changes, but also make it impossible to track the rules since books are out of date when they come out. So what if they were moving the rules online?