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tneva82 wrote:
Or doesn't US have one?

We do not. We have percentage based sales taxes that are composed of a combination of State percentage and City Percentage with some areas of places like Florida being Duty Free for tourism.

For example, where I am in Tampa, Florida, we have a 7.5% sales tax with no tax on "grocery items"(food items that aren't pre-prepared/hot meals, sugary drinks, etc.) but when I lived in Louisiana, some areas had a 9% sales tax.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
I've seen quite a few models from other people who go the new kits now and the stuff that's been put everywhere does not seem representative at all. I guess it says something about their confidence in the kits when they give a "satisfaction or your money back guarantee".

Really really hope that promise does not come back to haunt/hurt them

In the EU at least, prices are always final prices, after any applicable taxes. The idea of showing prices before taxes is usually seen as anti-consumer.

So if they plan to sell inside the EU they should advertise their actual prices.

Sarouan wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

- 3D printing is cheaper but with increased engineering costs so its a wash and prices will remain roughly the same

Of course they'll do.

Most of the 3D print firms I see who are making a serious business of it and actually doing all the proper things (like paying tax) and also not running it as a hobby side business - generally are charging around the same costs as regular cast models. Suffice it to say that while "its cheaper than GW" is what drew many to 3D printing, its not perfectly cheap and when you run it as a business the costs do rise up. Plus lets face it if the price for a model on the market averages out to X a company is throwing away earning potential if they charge way under X. Plus if PP aren't in a position to grow super-fast there's no reason for them to seriously undercut on a per model basis.


Finally whlist cheap means you can buy more; most gamers hit practical ownership limits. So you can basically say that each customer will typically have a point at which they don't want or need to own more of your models. Sure you get the odd fanatic prepared to build an army of hundreds to thousands, but they are super rare.

Books, movies and music survive piracy.

And you don't think rules from app won't get pirated?-)

tneva82 wrote:
Books, movies and music survive piracy.

And you don't think rules from app won't get pirated?-)

If you can get the community to accept the app as the way to play the game, it won't matter.

I am no saying it is going to be easy. I am saying it is the closest way to the way movies and music solved the piracy problem.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Books, movies and music survive piracy.

And you don't think rules from app won't get pirated?-)

If you can get the community to accept the app as the way to play the game, it won't matter.

I am no saying it is going to be easy. I am saying it is the closest way to the way movies and music solved the piracy problem.

Well, movies (and series) at least seem to have forgotten it, as they're unsolving it as we speak.

 Albertorius wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Books, movies and music survive piracy.

And you don't think rules from app won't get pirated?-)

If you can get the community to accept the app as the way to play the game, it won't matter.

I am no saying it is going to be easy. I am saying it is the closest way to the way movies and music solved the piracy problem.

Well, movies (and series) at least seem to have forgotten it, as they're unsolving it as we speak.

Yeah, attempting to maximize profits while ignoring consumer friendliness will mess up any good idea real fast.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Books, movies and music survive piracy.

And you don't think rules from app won't get pirated?-)

If you can get the community to accept the app as the way to play the game, it won't matter.

I am no saying it is going to be easy. I am saying it is the closest way to the way movies and music solved the piracy problem.

Well, movies (and series) at least seem to have forgotten it, as they're unsolving it as we speak.

Yeah, attempting to maximize profits while ignoring consumer friendliness will mess up any good idea real fast.

Eh, not really. Big corporations nowadays can basically do no wrong as long as they keep pumping out products and keep getting immense profits off the whales, the shills and by sheer presence and size.

Like goddamn Morbius was a financial success, and so was Diablo Immortal.

I will say though that the emphasis on new models including magnets to swap parts is very exciting. Is PP the first miniature company to officially do this?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I will say though that the emphasis on new models including magnets to swap parts is very exciting. Is PP the first miniature company to officially do this?

I feel like its happened before. I remember one of the Guild Ball models came with magnet holes, but I don't recall if the package actually contained magnets. I can't recall anything on this scale though, and its absolutely the most exciting part of these new models.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I will say though that the emphasis on new models including magnets to swap parts is very exciting. Is PP the first miniature company to officially do this?

PuppetsWar is doing it with their models for years now

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I will say though that the emphasis on new models including magnets to swap parts is very exciting. Is PP the first miniature company to officially do this?

If you mean adding magnets as part of the product, no. Flames of War has been adding magnets to the turrets of the tanks for a decade.
As for adding slots for magnets, Titianicus did that on reaver titans and upwards so we could swap weapons around as we see fit, but they never included the magnets.

I collect both so i know of them, but there is shure to be other games that has played around with magnets as default design too.

 McDougall Designs wrote:


Not unless they radically changed the way they approach business.

They are obviously competent enough to be able to find investors for this MKIV attempt.

They seem to be short-sighted and definitely not even attempting enough research (either behind-the-scenes or publicly.

My own methodology to business comes from my historical research background. For example: if I notice a problem and don't correct it, it's highly likely it will happen again.

I'm not sure whether this attempt at MkIV it will fail or succeed. I do know that 3D printing for profit does not scale well for mass produced miniature wargames items. Key word being "mass produced."

Because frankly, this is a volume business. I personally think they would be better suited engaging a US or UK based production firm and signing deals with traditional distributors like bridge distribution in the US and Sarissa in the UK.

TBH, that's a lot of "if" situations in your quote. Finding investors isn't about competence, it's all about belief. They're just using their brand name and make it look like it's still as strong as before. It's not at all a proof they know what they are doing / what their customers actually want and won't crash into horrible bankruptcy.

Yes, you're right, a good businessman should actually look at their own failures in the past and learn from it. But that's not how it happens in real life. It's not even a requisite...and sadly, capitalism works in such a way than incompetent people can actually keep being incompetent and get away with it, while a lot of other people (usually much poorer than them) pay the price for them. Never assume people with big wages are competent, because that never needed to be related in this current society.

As for the relation between 3D printing and mass production, that really depends on what scale we are talking. From what I read so far, new edition of Warmachine / Horde is still about a somewhat skirmish game, meaning a bit lower than Age of Sigmar. Warmachine / Horde was never really a "massive scale" game like historical games or hell even Warhammer Battle or Kings of War. That's why their prices were always set so high and yet still believed in the community to be "somewhat ok" in comparison to other mass battle wargames (at that time, it was really Warhammer Battle and 40k TBH), simply because you needed less models to play (at least at the beginning). That's what I call "the skirmish tax".

The real question is : will they have enough customers to make it profitable ? That's also why they don't want to keep the old models on the same level of playability : they need to sell a lot of new models, after all, not old stuff that can be found on second hand market at a way more affordable price / be already played by the "old guard" players who already have everything in their collection.

 Overread wrote:

Sure you get the odd fanatic prepared to build an army of hundreds to thousands, but they are super rare.

It's not really about that, it's about PP's prices are already higher than GW's in more than one situation. Saying it will stay "roughly the same" for this new edition means the same problem than before will apply for this new edition, while they'd say the new way of production was indeed about making costs cheaper for them.

So basically, it means they're still thinking their Warmachine / Horde brand is still worth being that expensive. Thus they didn't learn a thing about their previous failures before.

By the way, I actually think these words mean prices will be more expensive than before - because inflation and whatever other excuse they'll find. There is no "roughly the same" prices that actually exist on the market. It's always about being higher and higher as years pass on.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I will say though that the emphasis on new models including magnets to swap parts is very exciting. Is PP the first miniature company to officially do this?

Does adeptus titanicus count?

tneva82 wrote:
Books, movies and music survive piracy.

And you don't think rules from app won't get pirated?-)

Generally there's little motivation to pirate something that's given away free....

tneva82 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I will say though that the emphasis on new models including magnets to swap parts is very exciting. Is PP the first miniature company to officially do this?

Does adeptus titanicus count?

Did Adeptus Titanicus come with magnets? I thought the kits were designed with recesses to put magnets in, but didn't come with the actual magnets.

Cygnwulf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Books, movies and music survive piracy.

And you don't think rules from app won't get pirated?-)

Generally there's little motivation to pirate something that's given away free....

Umm music books etc aren't given free. If you refer to app i was commenting on idea of stl free, app costs. So rules from app would have reason to be pirated. Same as why pirate books, music and stl's.

 stonehorse wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I will say though that the emphasis on new models including magnets to swap parts is very exciting. Is PP the first miniature company to officially do this?

Does adeptus titanicus count?

Did Adeptus Titanicus come with magnets? I thought the kits were designed with recesses to put magnets in, but didn't come with the actual magnets.

Nothing has come from GW with magnets. And the sculpted sockets aren’t exactly universal.

Reaver and Warhound are DIY in that regard sadly. Upside is a dod of blutak or similar gets the job done just as well.

tneva82 wrote:
Wouldn't VAT apply anyway? Or doesn't US have one?

At least here you pay finnish VAT even if you are producing IN Finland.

But of course if you sell from UK to Finland you aren't at least supposed to apply UK VAT to it(that's double taxation and seeing UK gov isn't getting that money it's basically company pocketing up it for yourself) so basically you remove the UK VAT from price and then add up relevant VAT of target country.

In same way EU based stories selling to US have option for non-VAT price. Precisely when selling outside the EU so VAT isn't applied.

But whether you are selling from US, UK or inside EU at some point you are expected to pay VAT. Well maybe not in US. Maybe they don't have it? But do know UK has one.

BTW if US does have VAT is that 200$ before or after VAT?

That sounds correct. I am probably mistaken but I took him to be referencing import VAT/taxes.

My issues with VAT has been that the EU requires the designation of a representative based in an EU country, which means finding a business partner or contracting with a company that remits VAT.


And the companies that have sprung up to do this make it impractical based on my margins.

So I readily admit I don't know enough about the system when in-region to comment on that.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The recent primecast listed out what legacy armies would get ported over to MK4. This list is from Reddit.

Mercenaries will have four seperate prime armies: Steelheads, Talion Charter, Rhul, Cephalyx

No Llaelese Resistance? Boooo

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The recent primecast listed out what legacy armies would get ported over to MK4. This list is from Reddit.

Mercenaries will have four seperate prime armies: Steelheads, Talion Charter, Rhul, Cephalyx

No Llaelese Resistance? Boooo

Effectively Crucible Guard all things considered.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

No Llaelese Resistance? Boooo

In fairness, who are they going to resist? Didn't Khador get largely kicked out of Llael?

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The recent primecast listed out what legacy armies would get ported over to MK4. This list is from Reddit.

Mercenaries will have four seperate prime armies: Steelheads, Talion Charter, Rhul, Cephalyx

No Llaelese Resistance? Boooo

They only ever had like- 2-3 models for it? Kinda hard to make that into a standalone army. Maybe they'll flesh it out as a new army now. It seems like this new system will encourage them to produce a lot of one-off smaller factions rather than worrying about pumping out constant releases for the big 4 factions.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The recent primecast listed out what legacy armies would get ported over to MK4. This list is from Reddit.

All limited armies will be 100% ported to Prime which includes: Convergence of Cyriss, Crucible Guard, Grymkin, Infernals

Mercenaries will have four seperate prime armies: Steelheads, Talion Charter, Rhul, Cephalyx

Minions will have an army for each of its major halves: Thornfall Alliance, Blindwater Congregation

Each major faction will have two prime armies, two of which were confirmed: Cygnar - Gravediggers, Khador - Armored Korps

Banes for Cryx and Exemplars for Menoth are also already confirmed from the beta cards.

Excellent!! Thanks for the info

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I will say though that the emphasis on new models including magnets to swap parts is very exciting. Is PP the first miniature company to officially do this?

Does adeptus titanicus count?

Did Adeptus Titanicus come with magnets? I thought the kits were designed with recesses to put magnets in, but didn't come with the actual magnets.

Nothing has come from GW with magnets. And the sculpted sockets aren’t exactly universal.

Reaver and Warhound are DIY in that regard sadly. Upside is a dod of blutak or similar gets the job done just as well.

The new leviathan also has magnet sockets for the flamers/volkite secondary guns, which is neat

So just so I understand.
Some models from previous editions will still be usable?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So just so I understand.
Some models from previous editions will still be usable?

From what they've said so far, the initial rules release will incorporate the new releases and an undefined (but small) number of existing models. Other old models will theoretically get rules for use in Unlimited play at some point in the future.

 insaniak wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So just so I understand.
Some models from previous editions will still be usable?

From what they've said so far, the initial rules release will incorporate the new releases and an undefined (but small) number of existing models. Other old models will theoretically get rules for use in Unlimited play at some point in the future.

I think they will be fools not to carry over the gargantuans/colossals and battle engines.


They are stonking models with a very large cost premium.
Not sure if in the future would be done 3d print or continue resin though (similar to the other small number legacy models)

I have large armies of COC, Grymkin, Cygnar, Skorne, Menoth and Circle.

A handful models ported to prime from the current range I can live with, to have a game that thrives. BUT make some of those models the battle engines and gargossals.

 Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So just so I understand.
Some models from previous editions will still be usable?

From what they've said so far, the initial rules release will incorporate the new releases and an undefined (but small) number of existing models. Other old models will theoretically get rules for use in Unlimited play at some point in the future.

I think they will be fools not to carry over the gargantuans/colossals and battle engines.


They are stonking models with a very large cost premium.
Not sure if in the future would be done 3d print or continue resin though (similar to the other small number legacy models)

I have large armies of COC, Grymkin, Cygnar, Skorne, Menoth and Circle.

A handful models ported to prime from the current range I can live with, to have a game that thrives. BUT make some of those models the battle engines and gargossals.

From the pressrelease:
"Certain models, such as Colossals and Battle Engines will only get MKIV rules when those model types are introduced into MKIV armies."

So, if you want to keep using the, you have to play mk3 for the time beeing, until PP feels the time is right to add them to mk4.