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Or just ignore clickbait and never mention that site on this thread forum again please?

More important to know is:

- Will there be a box set with all the new VGC? Will the Xpress be included or will they have their own dedicated box set?

There will definitely be a box set for the Xpress paints, if not all of them then a smaller amount of the colours they perceive will be most popular.

If the set is released at a discount it might be worth buying rather than the few paints that I had originally intended to get with the intention of getting a feel for them.

Dunno about a boxed set for the new VGC, maybe a splash release?

Am I rembering correctly that the release time is Nov/Dec? Do we have anything more solid?

 ekwatts wrote:
Juan is kind of acting as a bit of an ambassador when it comes to the new Vallejo range, so I do think it's important that developments are covered in full in case anyone is coming to Dakka for clarification of anything that has been said elsewhere.

But the suggestion that he's been shilling or that any of this has been a coordinated attack by Vallejo and Juan is absurd and insulting both to him and to our intelligence.

Juan is an enthusiast for contrast-style paints. That's why he covered the Speedpaints and their reactivation issue (even coming up with ways to "fix" it in one video), and that's why Vallejo sought his expertise for their range. The two things are related only as far as Juan is effectively an expert in this field.

He even said earlier in this thread, I believe, that designing paints like this is going to be a compromise one way or another, with "improvements" in one range over another being only incremental at best. Kind of his point all along is that the Army Painter range isn't actually bad because it reactivates. It just does. The Xpress colours and GW contrasts do not. And that's that.

In the end, Juan is an incredibly skilled painter who wants to pass his expertise along to the rest of us. And Spikeybits is.... well.. Just one look at the site would suggest that maybe, possibly, perhaps, they rely on adverts for the revenue.

As for Vallejo, correct me if I'm wrong, but they produce a pretty extensive range of artists products, their miniature paints range being a slice of that (although I imagine still pretty sizeable). As a company I seriously doubt they felt their place in the market was being radically threatened or usurped by Army Painter (and I'm not trying to diss them, but they're a much smaller, more specialised company, we're talking about niches within niches here) such that they needed to pay someone to mount an assassination based on information that was *checks notes* true in the first.. place... uh.

I don't know what is going on here. But my You Tube feed yesterday showed a short clip about Juan standing against attempts to cancel him on the platform. The comments section below was supportive but evident that some people were trying to troll him.
Juan, if you are reading this. You are welcome here. Nothing you likely don't already know, but it is best to say it nonetheless.

Juan's had a raft more followers off the back of it and seemed to be taking it in good humour yesterday (not to mention AP themselves tacitly being supportive of him). The instigator seemed to manage to dig even more of a hole for their already turgid reputation and had no visible support so it all seemed to come out well enough in the wash.

In terms of the Xpress, I'm very much looking forward to them. Speedpaints just don't seem to be what I'd want from this corner of the painting range, they all just look a bit 'washed out' by comparison though I absolutely get their appeal when used as (apparently) intended.

Yeah, if it wasn't obvious, I would also like to point out that Juan has my full support (for whatever that's worth!). The guy is an absolute gem in the hobby landscape and has done a far better job of teaching me the properties of the paints I buy and use than the manufacturers themselves ever have.

Yeah, if I had to pick between "Juan, one of the kindest and most generous and most skilled painters in the hobby, secretly being part of a big conspiracy" and "Army Painter, renowned for shoddy products that don't do what they claim, releasing a shoddy product that doesn't do what they claim", I know what my money is on.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah, if I had to pick between "Juan, one of the kindest and most generous and most skilled painters in the hobby, secretly being part of a big conspiracy" and "Army Painter, renowned for shoddy products that don't do what they claim, releasing a shoddy product that doesn't do what they claim", I know what my money is on.

I don't even have to guess who is in the right since I went all in on the Speed Paint mega set and know first hand the issues are real.

At this point I don't even get how AP stays afloat when it's barely cents cheaper than S tier paints like AK.

Juan's Eavy Contrast videos have massively helped me regarding my own use of contrast paints, I'm sure that his forthcoming videos using Xpress paints will be equally as helpful. I really can't wait to try them, I'm sure that the slower drying time will really be a big plus, as that is Contrast's biggest weakness IMHO.

I'm pleased for him that the community has come out and been mostly supportive of him after the assassination attempt from Those Who Shall Not Be Named, hopefully the exposure will mean that more people start viewing his videos

regarding flesh tone: to be fair, *flesh* in all humans is pink-ish. It's *skin* that has the variance.

I could also argue that modern parlance has made "flesh" synonymous with "skin", though.

Regardless, I don't really care what they call the colors as long as they exist.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah, if I had to pick between "Juan, one of the kindest and most generous and most skilled painters in the hobby, secretly being part of a big conspiracy" and "Army Painter, renowned for shoddy products that don't do what they claim, releasing a shoddy product that doesn't do what they claim", I know what my money is on.

Has Army Painter being doing that though. I am finding it hard to believe that company is toxic, though the internet is a big place and I could easily miss the words.
Surely this is due to fanbois trolling people who upset them, it fits the bill for the low IQ squad. Nothing (I have found) that Juan has done or said was to humiliate Army Painter, but some will take any commentary they find unpositive to be a threat of some kind.

AP has done nothing that I know of, and they've actually been supportive of Juan.

The quality of their products notwithstanding.

And juan has praised army painter products in his videos after the speed paint videos, he enjoys thr Flou paints he said.
He is very much a fair guy

 Ghaz wrote:

 Snrub wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
My thread,

All due respect Ghaz, it's not.

You created the thread, you don't own the thread. It's a News and Rumour thread about a company (which as far as i'm aware you neither own nor are employed by) and it's products. You created this thread in a public space with the intention of getting said publics opinions. This isn't your personal P&M blog where you might have a modicum of control over what gets posted there. You don't have any say in who posts what in this thread nor do you get to decide what's considered off-topic. If you don't like something someone's posted, then hit the yellow triangle and let the MODs sort it out.

Yes, it is. This has been clarified by the mods before that the creator of a thread does have some say in a thread, especially if others are trying ot drag it off-topic (as your post is).

And you're not a mod. Let the mods do their job and use their own interpretation of the rules. This is a thread in News and Rumours, not your personal blog, as Snrub said.

I mean, if we had a duplicate thread about Xpress Colour then the mods would lock it down duie to duplication, so don't try that kind of flex on a board that you don't own or moderate.

My own take on it is that Rob and SpikyBitz is a gakky clickbaity website that leeches off GW consumers while gaking on the company that their existence is dependant on, so it's no surprise that they'd do something gakky and clickbaity like this.

Quasistellar wrote:
regarding flesh tone: to be fair, *flesh* in all humans is pink-ish. It's *skin* that has the variance.

I could also argue that modern parlance has made "flesh" synonymous with "skin", though.

Regardless, I don't really care what they call the colors as long as they exist.

I'm not an artist, but aren't "flesh tones" the variations of colour within a given skin tone?

 Orlanth wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

I think asking for 1/5 of the new range to be explicitly named as skintones is probably unlikely. I agree that a couple of other names flesh tones is a good idea, but I think it stands that you don't need a paint to be named "skintone" for it to be useful for that purpose. And that's without mixing paints or contrasts (or Xpress paints!)

Not as ridiculous as you might at first think, five human skintones also covers a lot of other uses.

 Azazelx wrote:

A few of those paints have "skin" or "flesh" in their names, but just as many don't. (Plus my skin-tone-ish Citadels and Coat'D'Arms' and P3s are in another container, and yet others in their range cases). My go-to for Caucasian flesh highlights is VMA Sand, along with several others that live on the paint desk.

It is a developing trend not to have a single labelled skin tone in your range.

Developing where? I appear not to have noticed it, unless maybe Duncan's Paints and those TT Combat ones lack labelled skin tones?
I think one of the issues is that caucasuan skin is an odd colour. Not quite sand, not quite salmon, and often not that useful for many other things. Once you get more brown or tanned, skin tones are more generically useful across a wide variety of things. I do think it's useful to have some though, especially for newer painters who will more naturally gravitate to paints with "flesh" in the name - and as I said a default of "paint African people's skin with Scorched Brown, highlighted with Bestial Brown" ain't a good look.

Unless you mean to not have only one? On that I agree it's just good business and went into that already (in this thread I think?) I'm not sure what "Mongoloid" flesh looks like. I work with many people from all parts of Asia (Japan, China, Vietnam, Burma, Phillipines) - not to mention Islanders from NZ, Samoa, etc) and their overall skin tones really aren't much different to others that can be found around the world. I've certainly never seen a "yellowish" skin as old racist media would have it.

I am a big fan of Daley-Rowney FW Acrylics. Very good inks with heavy pigmentation in decent 30ml dropper bottles at a low price.
Their main customers are schools, and so got negative feedback when the only fleshtone in their range was distinctly Caucasoid and labelled 'Flesh Tint'. While that was overly woke I do in part understand offence taken as the idea that flesh colour = Caucasoid is insensitive. 'Flesh Tint' is now called 'Peach Pink'.
When I got some I thought there was a mistake in the order, and other addition to the range to collect (it is well worth getting them all). Nope, same paint, different name.

Ahh... interesting take on it. I also have a nice little collection of DW inks. In an extensive range I'd have thought it more useful to have a good number of them named, even if they were more generically named - different markets, though - as Art students can probably figure these things out a bit better than the average newbie to model painting, that can skew a lot younger. I'm not a fan of "woke" in it's current form, but I think avoiding only having caucasian skin as the only skin tone in a range would be a smart thing to do. And I'm sure the current crop of young art students skew a little more woke than most of us here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

I think asking for 1/5 of the new range to be explicitly named as skintones is probably unlikely. I agree that a couple of other names flesh tones is a good idea, but I think it stands that you don't need a paint to be named "skintone" for it to be useful for that purpose. And that's without mixing paints or contrasts (or Xpress paints!)

Not as ridiculous as you might at first think, five human skintones also covers a lot of other uses.

It doesn't really matter what they're named, but currently it looks like only one of the Xpress paints so far is something that could be used as a skin tone, and that one is very red/pink even for caucasian skin, so another 3 or 4 (regardless of whether they're named "skintone" or not) would be pretty reasonable.

I'd certainly go for more that can be used over the current one, and probably another two named ones. Ending up with Light/Mid/Dark (fit the current one in there where it best fits). Maybe "Ruddy" as well.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah, if I had to pick between "Juan, one of the kindest and most generous and most skilled painters in the hobby, secretly being part of a big conspiracy" and "Army Painter, renowned for shoddy products that don't do what they claim, releasing a shoddy product that doesn't do what they claim", I know what my money is on.

To be clear, this latest round of nonsense wasn't 'Juan vs Army Painter'... it was Spikeybits trying to manufacture drama. Army Painter weighed in to support Juan, and that would seem to be the end of it.

So that would seem like a good point to move the discussion away from internet drama and back to the new Xpress Color and Game Color releases.

Nobody should be clicking on Spikeybits articles, EVER! they're clickbait at the best of times, and this is the worst kind

I hope Xpress come out soon, I'm tired of hearing how they'll revolutionize the industry again just like the last 7 brands have "revolutionized" the industry, but then I'm always looking to add more paints to my bag o tricks

I've just noticed that Darksphere has the xpress colours available to pre-order for release on the 30th. There doesn't appear to be a box set, which is surprising.

I've been having a small break with my family to decompress and relax a bit. Let me address the SB issue here:

This is NOT me Vs AP, in fact I've been talking to Adam from AP regularly since the article came out and trust me they have nothing to do with this and are as shocked as everyone else about this.

Also regarding AP centric creators, Goobertown approached me privately to show his support and offer a friendly invitation to talk if I needed to. He is a fantastic guy and I'm sure Dana, John and the rest are too. It's very important to make one thing VERY clear, this is A FABRICATED CONTROVERSY.

Regarding my review, I stand by it and I think (and AP did too) that it was both fair and positive, in fact I said they are BETTER than contrast for a single coat application. What most people miss now because thanks to that review AP updated the literature of that product, is that I pointed out what I considered and still consider a flaw in a product (you can call it property and that's fair) that WASN'T DISCLOSED by the manufacturer at the time. Reactivation is only a problem if you don't know about it.

As for SB and my response, I stand by all I said, wrote on a piece of paper stuck to a plinth and printed on a shirt. I will always stand up to bullies, I will always fight back with all the strength and speed I can. It's important to understand I didn't start this, I don't want this but if I'm forced to defend myself I will end it.

These people know suing them is just not worth it, that's why they get away with all that crap, they are used to people not standing up to them, but I did and the community stood with me, he found out what happens when you feth around. He is accusing me of rallying my audience against him (which I literally never did, people are just TIRED), funny when he did that first to me, also funny that he literally has more social media presence and following than me and still no one stands by his side.

Finally, thanks to all of you that stood by my side you have no idea how much that means to me and you have no idea how much I love you all. I've moved on, deleted all my spiteful (although fair) answers and just want to keep painting and making content that's valuable and positive for the hobby.

LET'S GET CRACKING

Just for clarity, I wasn't suggesting that AP had a beef with Juan.

Just that this is absolutely not the first dodgy product line from AP. I must have bought at least 20 cans of AP primer or varnish over the years and have had a problem with every last can at some point or another, despite trying every possible internet trick to make them work properly.

Looking forward to your next video Juan, keep up the good work


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Just for clarity, I wasn't suggesting that AP had a beef with Juan.

Just that this is absolutely not the first dodgy product line from AP. I must have bought at least 20 cans of AP primer or varnish over the years and have had a problem with every last can at some point or another, despite trying every possible internet trick to make them work properly.

20 cans? I have to ask, why did you keep buying them?

 Azazelx wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:




It is a developing trend not to have a single labelled skin tone in your range.

Developing where? I appear not to have noticed it, unless maybe Duncan's Paints and those TT Combat ones lack labelled skin tones?

Answered below as you will see.

 Azazelx wrote:

I think one of the issues is that caucasuan skin is an odd colour. Not quite sand, not quite salmon, and often not that useful for many other things. Once you get more brown or tanned, skin tones are more generically useful across a wide variety of things. I do think it's useful to have some though, especially for newer painters who will more naturally gravitate to paints with "flesh" in the name - and as I said a default of "paint African people's skin with Scorched Brown, highlighted with Bestial Brown" ain't a good look.

While long pre-woke I do believe this was the reason we saw Elf Flesh and Dwarf Flesh in the old Citadel range.

 Azazelx wrote:

Unless you mean to not have only one? On that I agree it's just good business and went into that already (in this thread I think?) I'm not sure what "Mongoloid" flesh looks like. I work with many people from all parts of Asia (Japan, China, Vietnam, Burma, Phillipines) - not to mention Islanders from NZ, Samoa, etc) and their overall skin tones really aren't much different to others that can be found around the world. I've certainly never seen a "yellowish" skin as old racist media would have it.

That is it. It is bad business both ways. It is bad business to only have one human skin colour in your hobby range, it is a poor colour composition to do that. Sacrifice a secondary blue or a secondary red to get in an extra earth tone is a good idea, the 'boring' colours are the most useful.

However it is VERY bad business now to imply that human flesh is one colour, even if below skin this is true, and even if this oversight was accidental. Either have several paints labelled as human skin or none at all.
This is what Daley-Rowney found out.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

I am a big fan of Daley-Rowney FW Acrylics. Very good inks with heavy pigmentation in decent 30ml dropper bottles at a low price.
Their main customers are schools, and so got negative feedback when the only fleshtone in their range was distinctly Caucasoid and labelled 'Flesh Tint'. While that was overly woke I do in part understand offence taken as the idea that flesh colour = Caucasoid is insensitive. 'Flesh Tint' is now called 'Peach Pink'.
When I got some I thought there was a mistake in the order, and other addition to the range to collect (it is well worth getting them all). Nope, same paint, different name.

Ahh... interesting take on it. I also have a nice little collection of DW inks. In an extensive range I'd have thought it more useful to have a good number of them named, even if they were more generically named - different markets, though - as Art students can probably figure these things out a bit better than the average newbie to model painting, that can skew a lot younger. I'm not a fan of "woke" in it's current form, but I think avoiding only having caucasian skin as the only skin tone in a range would be a smart thing to do. And I'm sure the current crop of young art students skew a little more woke than most of us here.

Daler-Rowney did not confide this to me, but the FW Acrylics is a well established product line, times are indeed changing and schools are trending towards woke in the UK. I asked my supplier why he didn't advertise for the wargaming market, as the product he sells is superior and at a better price. I only knew about them from a review here:


I bought them on the strength of that review and was instantly converted. Next to no one knows about them. My supplier kindly replied that while he does sell to hobbyists, he is constantly cycling stock in vast numbers to schools. I asked about the extra product line, and was informed that Peach Pink was a recent renaming due to pressure from clients, the only one Daler-Rowney has done. I did not need to ask why.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

Not as ridiculous as you might at first think, five human skintones also covers a lot of other uses.

It doesn't really matter what they're named, but currently it looks like only one of the Xpress paints so far is something that could be used as a skin tone, and that one is very red/pink even for caucasian skin, so another 3 or 4 (regardless of whether they're named "skintone" or not) would be pretty reasonable.

Agreed, so long as they are there. One solution could be small print on the bottle for those colours with specific purposes, as there likely will be several. So a bottle of 'Dark Earthtone' could have in small print 'tanned leather, dark flesh, peat soil' as suggested uses. While 'Red Earthtone' could have in small print below 'ruddy flesh, rawhide' etc. I think this would help with the entire range, with heraldic colours mentioned, traditional colours like madder mentioned, whether a white ir tined or not etc.

In any case I would be very disappointed with less than ten earthtones out of the entire range of 43, with many of those doubling as a flesh colour.

 Azazelx wrote:

I'd certainly go for more that can be used over the current one, and probably another two named ones. Ending up with Light/Mid/Dark (fit the current one in there where it best fits). Maybe "Ruddy" as well.

The other, and indeed simpler solution.

 Azazelx wrote:

and as I said a default of "paint African people's skin with Scorched Brown, highlighted with Bestial Brown" ain't a good look.

Back to this. At Salute 2020, which occured only last year in London (Covid), a hobby group was showcasing Speedpaint on Army Painter's behalf. They were not employees just hobbyists like you and me. But they got hands on with the new range six months before release and we could sit and paint and try them out. I was too late for that, I had other things to do first and didnt get around to paint, but I did get to talk to them about painting and saw samples or minis left behind, and saw the range.
I asked at the time about non-Causcasoid skin tones and whether Army Painter covered them. I was told about the Flesh Tone set which had colour triads for three different skin groups and respective inks for all three. I took that on board and later managed to source them, they are very good.

But I also got a hot tip, so counter intuitive I would never have guessed it. When painting a very dark skin African, like a Zulu or West African, undercoat in green and paint straight over the green with a suitable dark brown paint, Dryad Bark is recommended for this. The combo makes it more real. I was shown pictures of some Zulus painted this way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JHMiniatures wrote:
I will always stand up to bullies

Good for you.

 JHMiniatures wrote:

LET'S GET CRACKING

Just flush and move on.

 JHMiniatures wrote:
It's very important to make one thing VERY clear, this is A FABRICATED CONTROVERSY.

This is very true. Out of all the various parties that have been dragged into this story by SpikeyBits, the only bad actor throughout has been Spikeybits themselves. None of the other parties "involved", whether it be Juan, Vallejo or AP, bear any ill will toward each other, and have come out in support of each other.

And that's that.

Now, back to the truly important business at hand, we need to know when Juan intends to redo his entire series of Space Marine chapter paintjob videos using Xpress Colours. Starting with Thousand Sons. An entire squad, perhaps?

Ánimo Juan!! A pasar de malos humos y mierdas varias!!

I hope to see more of your content with the new Xpress Colors, that's what I hope this community is waiting

Keep the good and honest work!

Mountain out of a mole-hill.

Seriously.

On point of the paints, is this really an issue, or is it just one mans opinion? I've never had any of these paints do that for me, so I am genuinely asking.

As to the "wash-paints" themselves, I use art inks, just in case anyone wants real good colors to work with with no issues. THIS has never been an issue.

Here's the ones I use.
Daler-Rowney® FW Acrylic Artists' Ink, 1 oz bottles.
https://www.michaels.com/daler-rowney-fw-acrylic-artists-ink/10518936.html

 Grot 6 wrote:
Mountain out of a mole-hill.

Seriously.

On point of the paints, is this really an issue, or is it just one mans opinion? I've never had any of these paints do that for me, so I am genuinely asking.

As to the "wash-paints" themselves, I use art inks, just in case anyone wants real good colors to work with with no issues. THIS has never been an issue.

Here's the ones I use.
Daler-Rowney® FW Acrylic Artists' Ink, 1 oz bottles.
https://www.michaels.com/daler-rowney-fw-acrylic-artists-ink/10518936.html

You can find all sorts of confimation of the issue on the Army Painter Speedpaints thread.

Yup, please keep any further discussion of Speedpaints to the Speedpaint thread. This thread is for discussing Vallejo paints.

Insaniak, mentioning Speedpaint and Contrast here is fair, so long as it is in cross reference to this new product, in quality, availability, or value for money.

Naturally we do not have too much to say at the moment, but if this thread lives long enough people will be wanting to post comparisons and personal experiences. I hope you see fit to review your dictat at that time.

Angel Giraldez showing off the new Game Color Metallics:

 Orlanth wrote:

I am too, but if you want cheap and can't wait there isn't much wrong with Army Painter Speedpaints, despite the moaning you hear. The reactivation can be an advantage dependant on application, and can be cured with varnish, mixing with regular AP pains, or as Juan told us Contrast Medium as a simple fix-all.
Or you could try Warcolours Antithesis range, another solid product line and woefully overlooked.
The only range of 'contrast' I do not recommend is Scale 75 Instant Colors, it works but does an inferior job.

I bought all of the Antithesis range. They're ...usable, but not my favourites to use. I'm happy to pay a little more for Contrast, and have picked up the GSW Dipping Inks. I'll buy the Vallejo when they come out, and if the new/reformulated Army Painted ones actually don't reactivate, I might even pick them up as well. Maybe.

 legionaires wrote:

I've been having good luck with the SpeedPaints, but I am the kind of painter they seem to have been intended for (one color per night and I might have several days between painting) as I don't do fancy blends, glazing, or any of that other fancy stuff.
Maybe I would have cared about being a better painter but after you have a guy show up with the same army he has won 5 separate painting competitions over 2 years blow out your local painting/tourney event, I'm kind of a "screw it" mentality.

Honestly, people paint for different reasons. I paint for pleasure and to have well painted models. I don't do tournaments. Other people are happy with the basics on their models so they can play and have it look good, and others just want to have a legal army for tournaments and such. Any of those reasons are fine, as painting is a related but distinct part of the hobby to playing games. Much like PC building and playing PC games.

Army Painter was always originally presented as "get stuff painted quick and easy" products, and they worked really well as that (and more!) until they changed their paint formulation years ago and have been kinda staggering around like unfocused drunks since then.

 ekwatts wrote:

In the end, Juan is an incredibly skilled painter who wants to pass his expertise along to the rest of us. And Spikeybits is.... well.. Just one look at the site would suggest that maybe, possibly, perhaps, they rely on adverts for the revenue.

Spikybitz is a trash website. By that, I mean they rely a lot of simple, trash articles along with clickbait and ragebait to get attention and clicks (and thus, ad revenue). I trust Juan (and Stahly!) and other people I know who have purchased the Speedpaints much more than Army Painter themselves or any of the incredibly compromised army of YouTubers that they've hired. And I trust Spikybits not at all.

 Orlanth wrote:

I don't know what is going on here. But my You Tube feed yesterday showed a short clip about Juan standing against attempts to cancel him on the platform. The comments section below was supportive but evident that some people were trying to troll him.
Juan, if you are reading this. You are welcome here. Nothing you likely don't already know, but it is best to say it nonetheless.

Agreed! Juan - feth those guys. Perhaps you can get more followers out of this childish behaviour as Naomi/Sword & Steele did a year or two ago. I'd never heard of her before that, but Steisland Effect and now I'm a subscriber.

 Kalamadea wrote:
Nobody should be clicking on Spikeybits articles, EVER! they're clickbait at the best of times, and this is the worst kind
I hope Xpress come out soon, I'm tired of hearing how they'll revolutionize the industry again just like the last 7 brands have "revolutionized" the industry, but then I'm always looking to add more paints to my bag o tricks

I don't think they're going to especially "revolutionise" anything. They will add more colours to my palette of this style of paint though. Any behavioural differences (aside from reactivation! ) that they have will just make them better or worse for certain things/effects

 Orlanth wrote:

While long pre-woke I do believe this was the reason we saw Elf Flesh and Dwarf Flesh in the old Citadel range.

If we're being honest, there was still a problem for anyone who would think about it with only having Elf Flesh, Dwarf Flesh and Bronzed Flesh in the range, though - Rings of Power controversies aside, there's also an implication there that all elves and dorfs were also light-skinned. I guess it was a product of its time, as WD only had models painted in caucasian skin tones aside from the rare other models like the Pygmies(!). The original fleshing out of the Salamanders chapter had them with dark brown skin before that was reconned into coal black in what I thought was a rather baffling move.

 Orlanth wrote:

That is it. It is bad business both ways. It is bad business to only have one human skin colour in your hobby range, it is a poor colour composition to do that. Sacrifice a secondary blue or a secondary red to get in an extra earth tone is a good idea, the 'boring' colours are the most useful.
However it is VERY bad business now to imply that human flesh is one colour, even if below skin this is true, and even if this oversight was accidental. Either have several paints labelled as human skin or none at all.
This is what Daley-Rowney found out.

I think we're basically in agreement, the only difference really being in that you'd add more that are explicitly named as flesh/skin tones than I would. I think three-four in total for a smallish range would be enough (so 2-3 new ones rather than 5).

 Orlanth wrote:

Daler-Rowney did not confide this to me, but the FW Acrylics is a well established product line, times are indeed changing and schools are trending towards woke in the UK. I asked my supplier why he didn't advertise for the wargaming market, as the product he sells is superior and at a better price. I only knew about them from a review here:

Back in the day I used to use WInsdor & Newton inks for washes and what we'd now call contrast. I found out about the Daler Rowney via Les Bursley's "make your own washes" tutorial here on Dakka over a decade ago (and they're good, as you know!)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/261541.page

Thanks for the vid link - I'll check it out later. Vince has some good stuff in his vids.

 Orlanth wrote:

Agreed, so long as they are there. One solution could be small print on the bottle for those colours with specific purposes, as there likely will be several. So a bottle of 'Dark Earthtone' could have in small print 'tanned leather, dark flesh, peat soil' as suggested uses. While 'Red Earthtone' could have in small print below 'ruddy flesh, rawhide' etc. I think this would help with the entire range, with heraldic colours mentioned, traditional colours like madder mentioned, whether a white ir tined or not etc.

In any case I would be very disappointed with less than ten earthtones out of the entire range of 43, with many of those doubling as a flesh colour.

I don't think it's realistic that Vallejo will dedicate 1/4 of their new line to earth tones. My own solution is that I don't use any brand as a one-stop and also mix colours (including of contrasts). I'm ok with mixing things like skin and hair tones because of the huge variation between individuals so it's not like unifirms that are often much more specifcally uniform - and nobody's going to create a perfect Feldgrau in contrast-style paints anyway!

The idea of listing alternate uses isn't really realistic for the small labels (mostly given over to branding and instructions + "do not drink") but I do think it'd be excellent idea for the flyers found in Vallejo's paint sets and the inevitable Xpress paint set(s).

 Orlanth wrote:

Back to this. At Salute 2020, which occured only last year in London (Covid), a hobby group was showcasing Speedpaint on Army Painter's behalf. They were not employees just hobbyists like you and me. But they got hands on with the new range six months before release and we could sit and paint and try them out. I was too late for that, I had other things to do first and didnt get around to paint, but I did get to talk to them about painting and saw samples or minis left behind, and saw the range.
I asked at the time about non-Causcasoid skin tones and whether Army Painter covered them. I was told about the Flesh Tone set which had colour triads for three different skin groups and respective inks for all three. I took that on board and later managed to source them, they are very good.

But I also got a hot tip, so counter intuitive I would never have guessed it. When painting a very dark skin African, like a Zulu or West African, undercoat in green and paint straight over the green with a suitable dark brown paint, Dryad Bark is recommended for this. The combo makes it more real. I was shown pictures of some Zulus painted this way.

Very interesting. What lightness and intensity of green are we talking about as recommended to use? You can reference the citadel colour palette for an answer, since it's easly found/referenced by most people. Dryad Bark is a dark brown, though...?

 Ghaz wrote:
Angel Giraldez showing off the new Game Color Metallics:

Well, THOSE aren't Xpress Colour! That's an off-topic post by your own metric!

But it fits with the overall wider discussion that multiple people here are having - as do the other brands and the self-destructive post by that website. As long as the conversation doesn't entirely devolve into these tangents (like a long discussion on painting metal) then it should be cool - which is the entire point we were making earlier.

 Orlanth wrote:
Insaniak, mentioning Speedpaint and Contrast here is fair, so long as it is in cross reference to this new product, in quality, availability, or value for money.

Naturally we do not have too much to say at the moment, but if this thread lives long enough people will be wanting to post comparisons and personal experiences. I hope you see fit to review your dictat at that time.

Gotta agree with Orlanth again. They're all relevant as they are all variations on a (relatively new) theme or have a relevance to the discussion - just as Orlanth and I discussing Raler-Downey Ink naming conventions when compared to Vallejo's is. And even Ghaz posting a link to a video that's for a different product (even if it is from the same company!)