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ccs wrote:
So if these two kids could take a few moments?
What stops the rest of you?

Yeah, but unlike Karol, those kids don't have to fight off rad scorpions and marauding packs of Warboyz every time they go outside.

ccs wrote:

So if these two kids could take a few moments?
What stops the rest of you?

His imaginary playing group

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:


Kudos to those that can play what ever they want, but it starts to enter the area of in order to properly play GW games, you need a house, the income of a 30+ year old, a large group of friends, no or an accepting spouse etc. Not a very achivable thing for teens or young people playing GW games.

This will blow your mind.
The other day (sat afternoon) I'm at the shop. I'm setting up a table for a different game. Across the aisle & a bit behind me I hear two of the kids (both 15/16 yr olds) discussing the details of a custom scenario/mission.
●They don't own houses.
●They don't own infinite models.
●They don't have anything resembling the income of an adult.
●Niether has custom built an army to play custom rules.
●and I happen to know that outside the shop neither has a pool of 40k playing friends/family.
● Oh, and neither seemed worried that the other guy was trying to gain some sort of game advantage.

They were just two (not quite random) 40k players taking a few minutes to come up with a unique mission they thought would be fun.
And over the next 2 hours or so they did indeed seem to be having fun....

So if these two kids could take a few moments?
What stops the rest of you?

Karol is correct here for the most part. Very often players in my area find themselves in a situation where their opponent pool dictates the games that they play. In my case I live 20 minutes and about an hour from 2 very active tabletop gaming clubs. No one there wants to play anything but matched play up to date rules. There is a gaming store in the city that has a massive pool of players where I can easily get games of narrative, tempest even homebrew if I want but thats almost 90 minutes travel time for me.

If you have the luxury of having opponents that will play what you want then thats great for you but this was a thread about nephilim specifically and by default a thread about matched play so coming on here and hijacking the conversation and WHITE KNIGHTING homebrew is completely pointless.

 nurgle86 wrote:
hijacking the conversation and WHITE KNIGHTING homebrew is completely pointless.

As someone who lives rural and has very little choice in who I play I've been banging this drum forever. There's a general consensus among the 40k defenders on here that everyone lives in a large city with multiple groups, all of whom have people willing to play in a variety of ways based on whatever whim the poster happens to have that day.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:
hijacking the conversation and WHITE KNIGHTING homebrew is completely pointless.

As someone who lives rural and has very little choice in who I play I've been banging this drum forever. There's a general consensus among the 40k defenders on here that everyone lives in a large city with multiple groups, all of whom have people willing to play in a variety of ways based on whatever whim the poster happens to have that day.

It also seems to be a problem that's quite specific to 40k. I don't really hear the same complaints about groups playing X-Wing, or Bolt Action, or Malifaux. It's odd that the blame is laid at the feet of the "group" if a player can't get an enjoyable game.

Voss wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
It just seems extra dumb to make a book you’re “supposed” to have for tournaments and only make it in a limited amount.

It depends why you're doing it, of course. If you're trying to support tournaments, sure, its dumb. If you're trying to churn and burn limited production runs for easy cash, then its quite effective. And its been really obvious since Psychic Awakening that they've been doing the latter. Its 10? 12? books along the pattern at this point (ignore various crusade only and what have you add-on books).

Then it'd make sense for them to have printed more at the start.

This is simply GW mis-judging how desirable the book would be as it did quite a decent job at the goal it was set to tackle.

It made no sense for them to re-print the book at the time as they had no way to judge the remaining demand and they can't order a small run very easily.

Ultimately it should just be digital, but there isn't some scheme at play here.

It's not like the existence of 6-month mission packs detracts anything from those who don't play competitive 40K. Crusade missions, open play, matched play from the BRB are still there. They didn't vanish.
For those of us who do enjoy that, mission packs like Nephilim are one of the best things GW introduced recently.
If you don't like that, don't buy these books. And maybe avoid wasting time trying to explain to others why their favourite game mode is wrong and shouldn't exist.

I don't understand, GW typically posts the big rules changes for Chapter Approveds for free on the community article. If your local group only plays the latest, someone has the book, probably multiple people. So why not ask to take some pictures of the relevant parts?

 Sim-Life wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:
hijacking the conversation and WHITE KNIGHTING homebrew is completely pointless.

As someone who lives rural and has very little choice in who I play I've been banging this drum forever. There's a general consensus among the 40k defenders on here that everyone lives in a large city with multiple groups, all of whom have people willing to play in a variety of ways based on whatever whim the poster happens to have that day.

I don't live in such a place.

However I do know hidden art that has been forgotten by people generally. Talk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gangland wrote:
I don't understand, GW typically posts the big rules changes for Chapter Approveds for free on the community article. If your local group only plays the latest, someone has the book, probably multiple people. So why not ask to take some pictures of the relevant parts?

GW doesn't post all rules for free. That's their point. Sell books. They wouldn't sell books if they would release everything for free.

tneva82 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:
hijacking the conversation and WHITE KNIGHTING homebrew is completely pointless.

As someone who lives rural and has very little choice in who I play I've been banging this drum forever. There's a general consensus among the 40k defenders on here that everyone lives in a large city with multiple groups, all of whom have people willing to play in a variety of ways based on whatever whim the poster happens to have that day.

I don't live in such a place.

However I do know hidden art that has been forgotten by people generally. Talk.

Perfect example. As someone else said what other games require negotiation talks prior to playing a game?

 Sim-Life wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:
hijacking the conversation and WHITE KNIGHTING homebrew is completely pointless.

As someone who lives rural and has very little choice in who I play I've been banging this drum forever. There's a general consensus among the 40k defenders on here that everyone lives in a large city with multiple groups, all of whom have people willing to play in a variety of ways based on whatever whim the poster happens to have that day.

I don't live in such a place.

However I do know hidden art that has been forgotten by people generally. Talk.

Perfect example. As someone else said what other games require negotiation talks prior to playing a game?

Most (all) table top games, magic the gathering and probably a few others.

If somebody is just starting, doesn't have a big collection of minis/ cards, wants to play a specific scenario, specific list or way of playing it's handy to know so that you can both bring something appropriate.

I would like to see an opposite example, where do people not talk before a game?
In Dropzone, Dropfleet, Necromunda, Kill Team, Apocalypse and 40k I've always had pregame discussions. Terrain setup, points level, what kind of game, and units we want to use ourself or would like it opponent to use/not use, there was always a lot to discuss.
The least discussion was when playing 5 parsec cooperatively, at least concerning pre game setup

You guys are confusing discussion with negotiation.

People on here frequently say "if your opponent is running WAAC lists just ask them not to" or "just ask if you can play old editions" which is not at all the same as just talking about which Magic format to run or what points value to play.

But then you know that. You're just playing ignorant to try and further your own arguments.

 Sim-Life wrote:
But then you know that. You're just playing ignorant to try and further your own arguments.

Probably accounts for 20% of some threads. I incorrectly called it concern trolling recently, I can't quite name it, it could be called ignorance trolling, (mis)understanding trolling, inaccuracy trolling?

 Sim-Life wrote:
You guys are confusing discussion with negotiation.

People on here frequently say "if your opponent is running WAAC lists just ask them not to" or "just ask if you can play old editions" which is not at all the same as just talking about which Magic format to run or what points value to play.

But then you know that. You're just playing ignorant to try and further your own arguments.

MtG Commander has a lot of discussion about power level and "Rule 0" - more so when you play outside your regular pod.

 Sim-Life wrote:
People on here frequently say "if your opponent is running WAAC lists just ask them not to" or "just ask if you can play old editions" which is not at all the same as just talking about which Magic format to run or what points value to play.

I can certainly see an argument that a discussion of editions and a discussion of Magic formats are not dis-similar.

ccs wrote:
So if these two kids could take a few moments?
What stops the rest of you?

In my experience, being too exhausted from real life to allocate the mental energy it takes to process a new scenario for which the person does not already have the mental muscle-memory established. I say this as the guy who does want to mix it up but has trouble finding opponents.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
You guys are confusing discussion with negotiation.

People on here frequently say "if your opponent is running WAAC lists just ask them not to" or "just ask if you can play old editions" which is not at all the same as just talking about which Magic format to run or what points value to play.

But then you know that. You're just playing ignorant to try and further your own arguments.

MtG Commander has a lot of discussion about power level and "Rule 0" - more so when you play outside your regular pod.

It can be the same one. All it takes is for the store events prize to be interesting to people who played 15-25 years ago, and suddenly the neo pauper commander turns in to , how much expiriance with pre urzas saga block do you have.

 Sim-Life wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:
hijacking the conversation and WHITE KNIGHTING homebrew is completely pointless.

As someone who lives rural and has very little choice in who I play I've been banging this drum forever. There's a general consensus among the 40k defenders on here that everyone lives in a large city with multiple groups, all of whom have people willing to play in a variety of ways based on whatever whim the poster happens to have that day.

I don't live in such a place.

However I do know hidden art that has been forgotten by people generally. Talk.

Perfect example. As someone else said what other games require negotiation talks prior to playing a game?

Pretty much every sport ever? Because, y’know. Home or Away? 8 hole or full course? League or Union? Grass or Hard?

Poker. Texas Hold’em? Aces High? Seven Card Stud? Even more childish card games like Gakhead, one every 6th Former knows but no-one ever remembers being told how to play, has multiple different rules (2’s reset, 10’s burn, 7’s reverse play order to name some)

RPGs? As a Games Master, my opponents benefit from a brief of what sort of game I want to run (combat heavy, murder mystery, political thriller etc), and I can benefit and be further informed by what sort of character they want to play. After all, if I want to do a horrific war of nasty deth, and most of my troupe want to play Clever Characters? That’s not gonna work, and one party just crashing on with its preference is going to wind up as a pretty unsatisfying game, no?

You use the word negotiation as if pre-game discussion is some lengthy process. It’s really not. Agreeing points? That’s pre-game discussion. Special Characters yay or nay (not necessarily a modern example)? That’s pre-game discussion. If it’s a regular opponent, add in Proxies yes or no, and perhaps even “do you want to try this specific scenario” are among additional levels.

Hell, even “what time can you make it, and what time do you need to be leaving” is a pre-game discussion, as it can influence game size and overall speed of play expected.

If you or your opponent (you not meaning you specifically here) demand actual negotiation including justification of say, why the other just wants to do a Power Level game, rather than stating your preference? Chances are you or your opponent is taking it all much too seriously. If you’re both doing it, crack on as whilst not my own preference, the important thing you two are on the same wavelength and more power to you.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:
hijacking the conversation and WHITE KNIGHTING homebrew is completely pointless.

As someone who lives rural and has very little choice in who I play I've been banging this drum forever. There's a general consensus among the 40k defenders on here that everyone lives in a large city with multiple groups, all of whom have people willing to play in a variety of ways based on whatever whim the poster happens to have that day.

I don't live in such a place.

However I do know hidden art that has been forgotten by people generally. Talk.

Perfect example. As someone else said what other games require negotiation talks prior to playing a game?

Pretty much every sport ever? Because, y’know. Home or Away? 8 hole or full course? League or Union? Grass or Hard?

Poker. Texas Hold’em? Aces High? Seven Card Stud? Even more childish card games like Gakhead, one every 6th Former knows but no-one ever remembers being told how to play, has multiple different rules (2’s reset, 10’s burn, 7’s reverse play order to name some)

RPGs? As a Games Master, my opponents benefit from a brief of what sort of game I want to run (combat heavy, murder mystery, political thriller etc), and I can benefit and be further informed by what sort of character they want to play. After all, if I want to do a horrific war of nasty deth, and most of my troupe want to play Clever Characters? That’s not gonna work, and one party just crashing on with its preference is going to wind up as a pretty unsatisfying game, no?

You use the word negotiation as if pre-game discussion is some lengthy process. It’s really not. Agreeing points? That’s pre-game discussion. Special Characters yay or nay (not necessarily a modern example)? That’s pre-game discussion. If it’s a regular opponent, add in Proxies yes or no, and perhaps even “do you want to try this specific scenario” are among additional levels.

Hell, even “what time can you make it, and what time do you need to be leaving” is a pre-game discussion, as it can influence game size and overall speed of play expected.

If you or your opponent (you not meaning you specifically here) demand actual negotiation including justification of say, why the other just wants to do a Power Level game, rather than stating your preference? Chances are you or your opponent is taking it all much too seriously. If you’re both doing it, crack on as whilst not my own preference, the important thing you two are on the same wavelength and more power to you.

It's nice that you wrote all that and got to the last paragraph before you even got close to addressing my point and still missed it. What if you have a limited pool of people to play with and you AREN'T on the same wavelength?

Well, sucks to be you. But that’s a community issue, isn’t it? Nobody can say GW themselves don’t offer and bake in different ways to play.

Sometimes, you’re in the minority and won’t be able to get your preferred style of game. Not really sure what we or GW can do about that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, sucks to be you. But that’s a community issue, isn’t it? Nobody can say GW themselves don’t offer and bake in different ways to play.

Sometimes, you’re in the minority and won’t be able to get your preferred style of game. Not really sure what we or GW can do about that.

Make a good game?

So Anyways… it really sucks that GW underprinted the book they expected everyone to use for tournaments and then never restocked it. I hope they do better with the next one.

 AduroT wrote:
So Anyways… it really sucks that GW underprinted the book they expected everyone to use for tournaments and then never restocked it. I hope they do better with the next one.

You know what hope is, right?

Next tournament book is likely to release in January alone with the proper release of the Guard codex. New Guard codex has no secondaries in it and current secondaries are incompatible as they lack the <Regiment> keyword.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, sucks to be you. But that’s a community issue, isn’t it? Nobody can say GW themselves don’t offer and bake in different ways to play.

Sometimes, you’re in the minority and won’t be able to get your preferred style of game. Not really sure what we or GW can do about that.

Make a good game?

"Make a good game" is the most subjective statement you can find. What you may find boring someone else will find immensely enjoyable. So "Make a good game" is a target that is technically unachievable and as Mad Doc Grotsnik pointed out earlier a ton of popular games have enormous amount of variety because of how subjective entertainment is.

I think a lot of people fall into the trap believing that there is some absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace and join everyone together as the siblings they are, but the fact is that it is highly improbable that will ever happen.

I doubt that, i think his "make a good game" was more inline with an demand of GW actually putting in some effort in the rulesfront and balance.

Perfect balance will never exist, especially not in a wargame that has asymetric designed forces and scenarios.

However just formatting the rules better f.e. in HH 2.0 would improve the rules and make for a better and easier to grasp game. F.e. special rules and equipment.

That is not even going into rules that are just written in a way that requires higher education in philosophy to understand due to the language not being cohernetly and equally applied.

Then there is the case in 8th and 9th of "USR's but not" which are problematic due to legacy implications and an unequal application due to wording and difference.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think a lot of people fall into the trap believing that there is some absolute perfect solution that will bring world peace and join everyone together as the siblings they are, but the fact is that it is highly improbable that will ever happen.

In the context of Warhammer, there are absolutely areas where GW could make an objectively better game.
Just internal and external army balancing, to name the most obvious point.

I think you will be hard pressed to find somebody arguing "but I'm having my subjective fun playing a sub 40% win rate faction where 8 out of 10 units are dumbsterfire tier and I want it that way. Nothing to improve here.".

 AduroT wrote:
So Anyways… it really sucks that GW underprinted the book they expected everyone to use for tournaments and then never restocked it. I hope they do better with the next one.

They just need to go digital. They did points. There's a great ( third party ) app. Let's just cross the finish line.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
So Anyways… it really sucks that GW underprinted the book they expected everyone to use for tournaments and then never restocked it. I hope they do better with the next one.

They just need to go digital. They did points. There's a great ( third party ) app. Let's just cross the finish line.

not crossing is financially more beneficial probably due to profit margins.