Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Rozenfire wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.

When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.

I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.

The frags won't get blast until they hit a 11+ squad, since the minimum they can roll is (1+3)

Nope, any blast weapons are considered to roll 3 shots at units of 6+ on their variable dice part, the additional shots don't kick in. They do 6 shots at 6+ sized units as d3(auto 3) +3.

honestly, looking at those guys, it kinda seems like the NLOS shooting is the "primary" ability and the direct fire is a secondary abiliity, hence why the sergeant is armed with two NLOS weapons.

are there many targets that str4 NLOS shooting is going to be good at? i cant think of many, beyond things like chaff camping on backfield objectives. even then, my quick math put it killing something like 5-7 GEQ targets in a single round, so it would take several rounds to clear a postion.

Dudeface wrote:

Rozenfire wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.

When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.

I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.

The frags won't get blast until they hit a 11+ squad, since the minimum they can roll is (1+3)

Nope, any blast weapons are considered to roll 3 shots at units of 6+ on their variable dice part, the additional shots don't kick in. They do 6 shots at 6+ sized units as d3(auto 3) +3.

That is incorrect.

Its total shots have a floor of 3. It doesn’t do anything till 11+ models for a gun like that.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
honestly, looking at those guys, it kinda seems like the NLOS shooting is the "primary" ability and the direct fire is a secondary abiliity, hence why the sergeant is armed with two NLOS weapons.

are there many targets that str4 NLOS shooting is going to be good at? i cant think of many, beyond things like chaff camping on backfield objectives. even then, my quick math put it killing something like 5-7 GEQ targets in a single round, so it would take several rounds to clear a postion.

That’s not nothing?

I get that bolter equivalent fire is something I don’t lack in my lists. This is just more of it. But the ignore LOS is a nice perk. Even if it takes 2 turns to clear an objective, that’s the rest of the game it’s not being scored. Or another, non-chaff unit tied down to it. There is value there.

Although with sticky objectives, how much camping is going on? Marines are probably no going to bother. It will be interesting to see how things shift in 10th.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Rozenfire wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.

When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.

I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.

The frags won't get blast until they hit a 11+ squad, since the minimum they can roll is (1+3)

Nope, any blast weapons are considered to roll 3 shots at units of 6+ on their variable dice part, the additional shots don't kick in. They do 6 shots at 6+ sized units as d3(auto 3) +3.

That is incorrect.

Its total shots have a floor of 3. It doesn’t do anything till 11+ models for a gun like that.

Right you are after going back and rereading it! My apologies, it just reiterates for me how clunky blast is as a rule.

Dudeface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Rozenfire wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.

When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.

I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.

The frags won't get blast until they hit a 11+ squad, since the minimum they can roll is (1+3)

Nope, any blast weapons are considered to roll 3 shots at units of 6+ on their variable dice part, the additional shots don't kick in. They do 6 shots at 6+ sized units as d3(auto 3) +3.

That is incorrect.

Its total shots have a floor of 3. It doesn’t do anything till 11+ models for a gun like that.

Right you are after going back and rereading it! My apologies, it just reiterates for me how clunky blast is as a rule.

No worries. I've suggested changes to Blast, making it scale slower but apply to each die rolled.

Because right now... It's dumb that a 4d6 Wyvern Mortar has no change in squads of 1-10, but as soon as you hit 11, it jumps to flat 24 shots.

 Nevelon wrote:

That’s not nothing?

I get that bolter equivalent fire is something I don’t lack in my lists. This is just more of it. But the ignore LOS is a nice perk. Even if it takes 2 turns to clear an objective, that’s the rest of the game it’s not being scored. Or another, non-chaff unit tied down to it. There is value there.

Although with sticky objectives, how much camping is going on? Marines are probably no going to bother. It will be interesting to see how things shift in 10th.

ok, fair enough, i agree its not "nothing", just whether its enough be the core purpose of a unit that can justify its place in a list.

Also, i forgot the NLOS to hit modifer, so that quikmaff was based on 3s to hit. at 4s to hit its closer to 5 GEQ assuming max shots (ie 15 of the castellans and 6 from the vengor). i didnt factor any buffs into that, so it might be slightly better than that, but not massively.

I suppose the question should be better phrased as "is that damage with NLOS worth the opportunity cost of (for example) not taking a unit of Eradicators or Eliminators?", given that it (presumably) sits in heavy support and would be competing with those for list space.

 Sacredroach wrote:

I really liked the dreadnought from the start, so I suppose I will try to get one of these initial release box sets for my Sons of the Phoenix army.

Never trust someone that doesn't like melee Dreads

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

That’s not nothing?

I get that bolter equivalent fire is something I don’t lack in my lists. This is just more of it. But the ignore LOS is a nice perk. Even if it takes 2 turns to clear an objective, that’s the rest of the game it’s not being scored. Or another, non-chaff unit tied down to it. There is value there.

Although with sticky objectives, how much camping is going on? Marines are probably no going to bother. It will be interesting to see how things shift in 10th.

ok, fair enough, i agree its not "nothing", just whether its enough be the core purpose of a unit that can justify its place in a list.

Also, i forgot the NLOS to hit modifer, so that quikmaff was based on 3s to hit. at 4s to hit its closer to 5 GEQ assuming max shots (ie 15 of the castellans and 6 from the vengor). i didnt factor any buffs into that, so it might be slightly better than that, but not massively.

I suppose the question should be better phrased as "is that damage with NLOS worth the opportunity cost of (for example) not taking a unit of Eradicators or Eliminators?", given that it (presumably) sits in heavy support and would be competing with those for list space.

Assuming a squad size of 6-10 (so max shots Castellan, 4 average on Vengor) the Vengor kills just over one GEQ and each Castellan kills 2/3rds of one.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

That’s not nothing?

I get that bolter equivalent fire is something I don’t lack in my lists. This is just more of it. But the ignore LOS is a nice perk. Even if it takes 2 turns to clear an objective, that’s the rest of the game it’s not being scored. Or another, non-chaff unit tied down to it. There is value there.

Although with sticky objectives, how much camping is going on? Marines are probably no going to bother. It will be interesting to see how things shift in 10th.

ok, fair enough, i agree its not "nothing", just whether its enough be the core purpose of a unit that can justify its place in a list.

Also, i forgot the NLOS to hit modifer, so that quikmaff was based on 3s to hit. at 4s to hit its closer to 5 GEQ assuming max shots (ie 15 of the castellans and 6 from the vengor). i didnt factor any buffs into that, so it might be slightly better than that, but not massively.

I suppose the question should be better phrased as "is that damage with NLOS worth the opportunity cost of (for example) not taking a unit of Eradicators or Eliminators?", given that it (presumably) sits in heavy support and would be competing with those for list space.

I don't tnkh you can call single weapon on sergeant as core purpose...pretty sure the main gun carried by all is.

Edit oh each guy does have secondary nlos gun. Still wouldn't call it as core purpose

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Rozenfire wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.

When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.

I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.

The frags won't get blast until they hit a 11+ squad, since the minimum they can roll is (1+3)

Nope, any blast weapons are considered to roll 3 shots at units of 6+ on their variable dice part, the additional shots don't kick in. They do 6 shots at 6+ sized units as d3(auto 3) +3.

That is incorrect.

Its total shots have a floor of 3. It doesn’t do anything till 11+ models for a gun like that.

Right you are after going back and rereading it! My apologies, it just reiterates for me how clunky blast is as a rule.

No worries. I've suggested changes to Blast, making it scale slower but apply to each die rolled.

Because right now... It's dumb that a 4d6 Wyvern Mortar has no change in squads of 1-10, but as soon as you hit 11, it jumps to flat 24 shots.

But you still get to roll the d3 right? So you can get 6 shots

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

That’s not nothing?

I get that bolter equivalent fire is something I don’t lack in my lists. This is just more of it. But the ignore LOS is a nice perk. Even if it takes 2 turns to clear an objective, that’s the rest of the game it’s not being scored. Or another, non-chaff unit tied down to it. There is value there.

Although with sticky objectives, how much camping is going on? Marines are probably no going to bother. It will be interesting to see how things shift in 10th.

ok, fair enough, i agree its not "nothing", just whether its enough be the core purpose of a unit that can justify its place in a list.

Also, i forgot the NLOS to hit modifer, so that quikmaff was based on 3s to hit. at 4s to hit its closer to 5 GEQ assuming max shots (ie 15 of the castellans and 6 from the vengor). i didnt factor any buffs into that, so it might be slightly better than that, but not massively.

I suppose the question should be better phrased as "is that damage with NLOS worth the opportunity cost of (for example) not taking a unit of Eradicators or Eliminators?", given that it (presumably) sits in heavy support and would be competing with those for list space.

Good question. And I don’t think we’ll have an answer until we see the final full points/datasheet.

They are going to be pricy. And you can’t hide them completely out of LoS, as presumably you’re going to want to be shooting superkracks into things. And being a high offense unit on a basic MEQ body, they are not going to be that hard to delete.

In the right list with good screening, I think they might work. But honestly I don’t see them making too much of a splash as things stand now.

tneva82 wrote:

I don't think you can call single weapon on sergeant as core purpose...pretty sure the main gun carried by all is.

Edit oh each guy does have secondary nlos gun. Still wouldn't call it as core purpose

what i meant was, that NLOS shooting is pretty much the key, "unique" thing these guys can do. Superfrag is just more bolter equivlent fire that most marines have plenty of, the superkrak is arguably subpar in antitank effect compared to eradicators (and not enough to justify these over eradicators), but theirs very little that can do NLOS shooting, so the big reason you'd want to add them to the list, in my opinion, would be because you want that NLOS capability. So, thats why i called it the "core" ability.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
what i meant was, that NLOS shooting is pretty much the key, "unique" thing these guys can do. Superfrag is just more bolter equivlent fire that most marines have plenty of, the superkrak is arguably subpar in antitank effect compared to eradicators (and not enough to justify these over eradicators), but theirs very little that can do NLOS shooting, so the big reason you'd want to add them to the list, in my opinion, would be because you want that NLOS capability. So, thats why i called it the "core" ability.

The main benefits these have over eradicators is, 1) better effective range, and 2) they can go in impulsors, then disembark and shoot after moving. I don't know if that'll be enough to make them worthwhile.

Atlatl Jones wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
what i meant was, that NLOS shooting is pretty much the key, "unique" thing these guys can do. Superfrag is just more bolter equivlent fire that most marines have plenty of, the superkrak is arguably subpar in antitank effect compared to eradicators (and not enough to justify these over eradicators), but theirs very little that can do NLOS shooting, so the big reason you'd want to add them to the list, in my opinion, would be because you want that NLOS capability. So, thats why i called it the "core" ability.

The main benefits these have over eradicators is, 1) better effective range, and 2) they can go in impulsors, then disembark and shoot after moving. I don't know if that'll be enough to make them worthwhile.

There's certainly something to be said for being able to hide in cover on the other side of the table, which Eradicators aren't likely to be doing.

At first glance, I'd say pass on the sarge's unique weapon and kit them out with Superkraks. Thanks to those Castellan launchers, they can work against both soft and heavy targets.

Shooting out of LoS is a blessing in disguise; it means WE don't have to look at them.

Those Desolation marines are embarrassing

Primaris are a mess of aesthetics, on one hand you get some nice looking models with better proportions than the old chibi marines, and on other you have these goofy things that look like an Ork unit. All the Vehicles are really bad too besides the bikes.

Can we get a redo on some of this stuff please? Maybe hire at least one person with some historical/military/weapon/tank design background to act as an editor for these "artists"

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Atlatl Jones wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
what i meant was, that NLOS shooting is pretty much the key, "unique" thing these guys can do. Superfrag is just more bolter equivlent fire that most marines have plenty of, the superkrak is arguably subpar in antitank effect compared to eradicators (and not enough to justify these over eradicators), but theirs very little that can do NLOS shooting, so the big reason you'd want to add them to the list, in my opinion, would be because you want that NLOS capability. So, thats why i called it the "core" ability.

The main benefits these have over eradicators is, 1) better effective range, and 2) they can go in impulsors, then disembark and shoot after moving. I don't know if that'll be enough to make them worthwhile.

There's certainly something to be said for being able to hide in cover on the other side of the table, which Eradicators aren't likely to be doing.

At first glance, I'd say pass on the sarge's unique weapon and kit them out with Superkraks. Thanks to those Castellan launchers, they can work against both soft and heavy targets.

Seems it’s just the diddy launcher which can blind fire though. Frag and Krak profiles don’t mention it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the aesthetic, it is growing on me.

Marines carrying improbable weapons, made wieldy by their physiology and power armour working in concert works. The fact the weapons are more potent than most of comparable size is very 40K Astartes.

That’s not to say some of the mock-ups others have done, such as mounting the diddy launcher on the backpack don’t look better. Just that I’m slowly gaining an appreciation for them as they are.

Controversially? I prefer them to the shoulder mounted Missile Launcher from 3rd Ed. Too short, too small for me.

That’s where I’ve been at too. It looks unwieldy To You because you don’t have super human strength further enhanced by a suit of power armor. They ain’t nothing for these chaps.

Just because they can carry it doesn’t make it ergonomic.

Primaris are strong enough to toss a missile with their bare hands. They are the chuck Norris of Warhammer!

After thinking on it a bit, I think my main issue with the Desolators is the Sergeant's silly gun. If the Venga boys mega blaster is optional and he can be built with one of the regular weapons (in a regular pose too), they are easier on the eye than a lot of the other goofy modern-ish marine units (Centurions, Flyers, Suppressors, Hover tanks). However, even if most people's reactions to the new guys is hyperbolic - it is telling of the quality control at GW that these guys sailed through without question when there are so many low hanging fruit options.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Primaris are strong enough to toss a missile with their bare hands. They are the chuck Norris of Warhammer!

Never forget that in Inquisitor, a Space Marine did more damage flicking rounds at enemy than firing them from his Bolter.

Found that out when a Power Gamer claimed the Frag I’d thrown hadn’t been declared to primed….still took the head clean off his dude.

Marine Frags don’t explode, they’re just designed to bounce thru multiple enemies.

I’ve come to the conclusion that this box and the desolators specifically are GW’s attempt at a salute to the Angry Marines! 😁

 Insularum wrote:
After thinking on it a bit, I think my main issue with the Desolators is the Sergeant's silly gun. If the Venga boys mega blaster is optional and he can be built with one of the regular weapons (in a regular pose too), they are easier on the eye than a lot of the other goofy modern-ish marine units (Centurions, Flyers, Suppressors, Hover tanks). However, even if most people's reactions to the new guys is hyperbolic - it is telling of the quality control at GW that these guys sailed through without question when there are so many low hanging fruit options.

For me it's the silly little hatches. Take those things off or keep them closed.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Can we get a redo on some of this stuff please? Maybe hire at least one person with some historical/military/weapon/tank design background to act as an editor for these "artists"

How about you start with yourself, seeing Primaris tanks are nearly direct copy of Merkava tanks (same as Rhino was of M113 and Predator of Bradley IFV), down to octagonal turret with multiple launchers/boxes around, hull profile and heavy stubber pintle mount?


Unless your argument is that actually produced, used in multiple wars tank is not realistic enough, in which case well

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

As for the aesthetic, it is growing on me.

Marines carrying improbable weapons, made wieldy by their physiology and power armour working in concert works. The fact the weapons are more potent than most of comparable size is very 40K Astartes.

That’s not to say some of the mock-ups others have done, such as mounting the diddy launcher on the backpack don’t look better. Just that I’m slowly gaining an appreciation for them as they are.

Controversially? I prefer them to the shoulder mounted Missile Launcher from 3rd Ed. Too short, too small for me.

Yeah, this is the first SM launcher that actually sells the idea that it fires multiple types of missiles on demand, not, like tube one, magically produces whatever missile is needed out of thin air. HH one is even worse, solid magazine with a single type of missile inside, yet somehow even more magically they turn from anti-tank ones to anti-air and vice versa. Yes, there are some types of universal missiles but SM very specifically use specialized missiles so it can't be that. Really, my only complaint is that Sarge special missile should be on backpack (vertically, though) and these would be mostly fine.

Really, reading through complains on Primaris, 95% of these tend to come from people who have no idea virtually every single gun/missile/tank they use has some RL equivalent, people who can name maybe 2-3 guns and tanks, and since these don't look like Primaris gear, therefore are bad/ugly/unrealistic, never mind the fact they not only existed, but were also successfully used in a war. Go figure

I like Primaris not only because they look million times better than squats with broken pelvis missing half of their spine, but also because their armor and gear looks way more functional than old stuff - because it's actually based on things people did use, not something that has literally no way of moving (looking at you, old dread legs/legs and belly of old armor marks/bullets in old guns magically teleporting around/[insert 200 more examples]).

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For me it's the silly little hatches. Take those things off or keep them closed.

Well, you can always clip them off if you don't like them, no?

And actually, they are based on another RL weapon, US M202 missile system, multiple tubes, hatches and all:


Such unrealistic, much wow.

The hatches would look better if down instead of up. The photo looks so much better.

But if they go down they interfere with the weird rotary belt fed thingy.

For me, the concept of the box launcher is fine, but balancing it weirdly on the end of a long thing seems to be a much worse idea compared to a shoulder mount of some kind. Weight distribution, back blast. Overall length just works against it, amd that’s before the weird rotary thing comes in.

Maybe it’s the higgledy littlest nature. Each individual component is fine, but I don’t like the way they have been smooshed together.

This is getting like when AoS dropped and fantasy fans pretended they couldn't understand the concept of different realms.