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Sure would suck to lose synaptic link because of "simple, not simplistic".

Oooh, remember when synapse range also gave eternal warrior? Meant Nid warriors could stand up to str 8 way better than other factions elites.

Gunna be interesting to see what they keep and what they chop.

There's still a butt-load we don't know, and the trickle of information is going to come in real slow from GW to keep us guessing until the entire rules are in our hands and we can cut past all the hype and advertisement and get to the real meat and potatoes of whether this game is going to be better or not.

And then we start the timer.

The timer being how long it takes for GW to put out a codex that throws all their promises in the trash.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sure would suck to lose synaptic link because of "simple, not simplistic".

Yea thinking on it now...it almost has to go, because all the supporting rules adds a ton.

What a double edged sword.

I think you could simplify it pretty easily so that you didn't need 4 pages, 11 diagrams and a 3-day conference to understand how Synaptic Link rules work.

drbored wrote:
Gunna be interesting to see what they keep and what they chop.

I don't know if 'interesting' is the word I'd choose. As I keep saying, I care far less about what they're adding compared to what we're losing.

The current 'Nid Codex introduced two concepts that are so good and fit the fluff so well - adaptive physiology and synaptic links - that the idea that they're just going to be thrown out the window or, worse, only available to one way of playing 'Nids is just awful.

Synapse does tend to hinge on leadership Gaunts have a LD of 8+ according to the card given. Which honestly is shockinghly high compared to what it normally is.

Will morale be brutal or just a wound tax? Will it take a unit out of the fight for a turn forcing you to account for it, or just mean a model or two vanishes when you fail?

cody.d. wrote:
Synapse does tend to hinge on leadership Gaunts have a LD of 8+ according to the card given. Which honestly is shockinghly high compared to what it normally is.

Leadership works in reverse in 10th. High = bad, low = good.

cody.d. wrote:
Will morale be brutal or just a wound tax? Will it take a unit out of the fight for a turn forcing you to account for it, or just mean a model or two vanishes when you fail?

Morale doesn't kill models anymore (thanks Christ!). We don't know quite what "Battleshock" does to units, but odds are it has something to do with their ability to hold objectives, and could have other effects that are detrimental to the unit - cannot benefit from command abilities/auras, modifiers to shooting or moving, etc. - rather than just "More stuff dies lolz!", which was always a stupid rule.

Ah that's going to mess with my head for a while. So it's actually worse now, essentially it's a ld4 in the new edition.

If failing a "Battleshock" test means your unit is less effective but still exists I'd be okay with that I suppose. I kind of like it causing a unit to move in a possibly undesirable direction to be more thematic and interesting but it also leads to more scenarios that are hard to write rules around. Or rely on a player not stretching measurements or directions such as angling your retreat to maybe give yourself more time to rally.

Also raises questions about the factions that specialize in fear will interact. Will we get pinning back? Perhaps the ability to go to ground again, a precursour to reactions of HH2. Get 1+ to cover but you are considered to have failed a battleshock test for your next player turn. Give me stuff to do in my opponents turn please.

cody.d. wrote:
Ah that's going to mess with my head for a while. So it's actually worse now, essentially it's a ld4 in the new edition.

If failing a "Battleshock" test means your unit is less effective but still exists I'd be okay with that I suppose. I kind of like it causing a unit to move in a possibly undesirable direction to be more thematic and interesting but it also leads to more scenarios that are hard to write rules around. Or rely on a player not stretching measurements or directions such as angling your retreat to maybe give yourself more time to rally.

Also raises questions about the factions that specialize in fear will interact. Will we get pinning back? Perhaps the ability to go to ground again, a precursour to reactions of HH2. Get 1+ to cover but you are considered to have failed a battleshock test for your next player turn. Give me stuff to do in my opponents turn please.

Based on what we see on the termagant datasheet and GW's comment that all units will have some ability then it is likely you'll have lots more to do.

Morale rules don't really have good track record. So far they were always written as a complex and potentially interesting mechanic. And then they are instantly neutered, because SMs need to know no fear and the various horrors of the galaxy should be considered fearless. In 9th even worse, the entire idea of having to roll for morale is obsolete. If you suffered enough casualties for it to become relevant, your unit was likely already dead anyway.

So let's first see if they reduce the sheer deadliness of everything first. But I can't see Morale to become a decisive factor in 10th. That would mean that Night Lords would be relevant, and when have they not been getting the brown end of the stick?

As far as simplifying stuff goes, the real interesting ones are going to be AdMech (because Canticles, Doctrines, and such are fairly complicated right now), Sisters (How do you simplify Acts of Faith?), and Chaos Knights (all the Dread test effects and stuff). I should probably add Votann to that list, because their current Judgment Token system doesn't work the way it's supposed to because of the (necessary) nerf. It'll be interesting to see how that gets reworked.

I really, really hope Sisters keep the Acts of Faith as it is right now. Miracle dice are such a fun mechanism to play with and it fits thematically well as well. It's 'only' one page of rules currently and could be shortened a bit in the explanation. Sisters don't really need sacred rights and Shield of Faith could easily be a datasheet ability. Blessing may be integrated in the enhancements. I have hope they don't mess with the miracle dice, because to me they're pretty much perfect as is.

The community spends 2 years complaining there's too many rules to remember, nothing is easy to track or keep up with, too many hidden power bumps for units, bring back USRs.

They do literally all that by the intent of their words and suddenly people are upset/confused that they're getting what they asked for. How ele did people expect them to strip back faction purity rules, subfaction rules and "unforseen" interactions out the hoohaa other than reduce the amount of sheer stuff?

Us3Less wrote:
I really, really hope Sisters keep the Acts of Faith as it is right now. Miracle dice are such a fun mechanism to play with and it fits thematically well as well. It's 'only' one page of rules currently and could be shortened a bit in the explanation. Sisters don't really need sacred rights and Shield of Faith could easily be a datasheet ability. Blessing may be integrated in the enhancements. I have hope they don't mess with the miracle dice, because to me they're pretty much perfect as is.

It's a good question: What happens to the rules that define a faction?

1. Do Acts of Faith and/or Miracle dice get removed wholesale. Or...

2. Are Acts of Faith and/or Miracle dice written as core faction mechanics, meaning there's a page of rules beyond the 2 pages GW keeps telling us about. Or...

3. Do Acts of Faith and/or Miracle dice get included in the 2 page spreads, meaning the rules get repeated over and over again depending on how many detachments there are? Or...

4. Do Acts of Faith and/or Miracle dice only appear on some of the detachments, leaving the others with something different? Or...

5. Do Acts of Faith and/or Miracle dice get split out into the various formations, so one formation gets "Rapturous Blows", whereas another gets "Word of the Emperor"?

It's interesting to think how these things would be applied (and easy to assume GW will pick the worst possible combination of all 5, because it's GW ).

 GiToRaZor wrote:
But I can't see Morale to become a decisive factor in 10th. That would mean that Night Lords would be relevant, and when have they not been getting the brown end of the stick?

Assuming Night Lords exist in the new rules, and aren't just a paint job you combine with the "Big Spookums Scaryforce" detachment they invented as if it's always been a thing.

Dudeface wrote:
They do literally all that by the intent of their words and suddenly people are upset/confused that they're getting what they asked for.

Only if you don't understand or wilfully misrepresent or just pretend you don't understand the arguments being made. Which one of those three are you doing, Dudeface?

 GiToRaZor wrote:
Morale rules don't really have good track record. So far they were always written as a complex and potentially interesting mechanic. And then they are instantly neutered, because SMs need to know no fear and the various horrors of the galaxy should be considered fearless. In 9th even worse, the entire idea of having to roll for morale is obsolete. If you suffered enough casualties for it to become relevant, your unit was likely already dead anyway.

So let's first see if they reduce the sheer deadliness of everything first. But I can't see Morale to become a decisive factor in 10th. That would mean that Night Lords would be relevant, and when have they not been getting the brown end of the stick?

Since the release of the Liber Hereticus for HH last year. But I have absolutely no faith in the 10th edition rules doing the same, after the unfounded claims about the 9th edition morale rules and how they would let Night Lords do "lots of cool stuff". Assuming that the 8th Legion even exists beyond a specific Formation, as H.B.M.C points out.

 GiToRaZor wrote:
That would mean that Night Lords would be relevant, and when have they not been getting the brown end of the stick?

HH2? Where facing them with infantry force is exercise in seeing your infantry sitting duck

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
They do literally all that by the intent of their words and suddenly people are upset/confused that they're getting what they asked for.

Only if you don't understand or wilfully misrepresent or just pretend you don't understand the arguments being made. Which one of those three are you doing, Dudeface?

Clearly not understanding. Please illuminate me why this bothers you after spending so long complaining about stacking rules and bloat.

It felt like Gravis Armor was sort of a Primaris Terminator armor so what does it mean for Gravis Armor now that we actually have Primaris Terminators? I imagine Inceptors and Eradicators won't be to affected but Primaris Terminator seem like something between Heavy Intercessor and Aggressors so I wonder how this will play out.

I dunno I always saw Terminators as top of the line, basically a double marine (back in the day they'd get an extra D6 added to their save). I think they may have weakened them a bit in subsequent rulesets and I have no idea about Gravis fluff but I'd still assume Terminators would be the final word in armour.

 Ahtman wrote:
It felt like Gravis Armor was sort of a Primaris Terminator armor so what does it mean for Gravis Armor now that we actually have Primaris Terminators? I imagine Inceptors and Eradicators won't be to affected but Primaris Terminator seem like something between Heavy Intercessor and Aggressors so I wonder how this will play out.

We don't have "Primaris Terminators". We just have Terminators, with the fluff justification that anyone can be in the suit. There won't be separate profiles for "Primaris" and "First Born" Terminators. There will just be "Terminators".

(Ok, there may be "Terminators" and "Assault Terminators", but that all depends on whether they consolidate things or keep them separate, even if the full kit contains all options - we just don't know yet! ).

Dudeface wrote:
Clearly not understanding. Please illuminate me why this bothers you after spending so long complaining about stacking rules and bloat.

Because the answer to "too much bloat" isn't "get rid of everything".

I am at a complete loss as to your lack of understanding here. You don't strike me as someone lacking in intelligence, so I cannot help but feel that you are being intentionally dishonest about your level of understanding here. I'd almost say you're approaching a level of "trolling". Almost.

To be fair we don't know that they're getting rid of everything. However it's likely that yes some good stuff will be lost in the cull. If that is for the good of the game as a whole though then I'm fine with that. Some of the synaptic link abilities may make it on to data sheets for example.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
It felt like Gravis Armor was sort of a Primaris Terminator armor so what does it mean for Gravis Armor now that we actually have Primaris Terminators? I imagine Inceptors and Eradicators won't be to affected but Primaris Terminator seem like something between Heavy Intercessor and Aggressors so I wonder how this will play out.

We don't have "Primaris Terminators". We just have Terminators, with the fluff justification that anyone can be in the suit. There won't be separate profiles for "Primaris" and "First Born" Terminators. There will just be "Terminators".

(Ok, there may be "Terminators" and "Assault Terminators", but that all depends on whether they consolidate things or keep them separate, even if the full kit contains all options - we just don't know yet! ).

Dudeface wrote:
Clearly not understanding. Please illuminate me why this bothers you after spending so long complaining about stacking rules and bloat.

Because the answer to "too much bloat" isn't "get rid of everything".

I am at a complete loss as to your lack of understanding here. You don't strike me as someone lacking in intelligence, so I cannot help but feel that you are being intentionally dishonest about your level of understanding here. I'd almost say you're approaching a level of "trolling". Almost.

Back at you. You complain about to many relics, warlord traits, strats, layers of rules spread across multiple books. They've just said they'd fix that. There are fewer strats, fewer psychic powers, contained isolated army rules. Its literally what you ask for.

You can't complain about the free layered rules salad and over abundant options available to deathwing to use your other example, then once they remove them, complain that having the bespoke units with deathwing rules, in a detachment that is used to represent 1st company, I.e. all terminators, isn't enough.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
It felt like Gravis Armor was sort of a Primaris Terminator armor so what does it mean for Gravis Armor now that we actually have Primaris Terminators? I imagine Inceptors and Eradicators won't be to affected but Primaris Terminator seem like something between Heavy Intercessor and Aggressors so I wonder how this will play out.

We don't have "Primaris Terminators". We just have Terminators, with the fluff justification that anyone can be in the suit. There won't be separate profiles for "Primaris" and "First Born" Terminators. There will just be "Terminators".

(Ok, there may be "Terminators" and "Assault Terminators", but that all depends on whether they consolidate things or keep them separate, even if the full kit contains all options - we just don't know yet! ).

Oh haven't you heard? In the 3 years of the incoming edition you will have Primaris Terminators called Terminaris.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
It felt like Gravis Armor was sort of a Primaris Terminator armor so what does it mean for Gravis Armor now that we actually have Primaris Terminators? I imagine Inceptors and Eradicators won't be to affected but Primaris Terminator seem like something between Heavy Intercessor and Aggressors so I wonder how this will play out.

We don't have "Primaris Terminators". We just have Terminators, with the fluff justification that anyone can be in the suit. There won't be separate profiles for "Primaris" and "First Born" Terminators. There will just be "Terminators".

Ah so it is essentially just a bigger model than the older but that is basically it, just bigger?

On a complete aside, with 40K showing up in this weeks’ episode of South Park? I’m not sure if it’s good or bad timing!

Good because GW have the hype train running for 10th. So plenty of info for the curious to observe.

Bad, because with the hype train running, I don’t think many will be buying in from a standstill outside of “oh that model is cool”.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


2. Are Acts of Faith and/or Miracle dice written as core faction mechanics, meaning there's a page of rules beyond the 2 pages GW keeps telling us about. Or...

3. Do Acts of Faith and/or Miracle dice get included in the 2 page spreads, meaning the rules get repeated over and over again depending on how many detachments there are? Or...

Let's mix them together, what GW are calling 2 page of detachment's rules is in reality one page for the Army and one page for the Detachment/subfaction.

pretty sure there was a rumour the distinction between primaris and firstborn marines was going away in terms of strats and transports, anyone aware of this?

I would quite like it as the main reason I never really wanted any of the Primaris is because I simply do not like their vehicles, if I can put primaris in a rhino or a land raider I would be happy and actually get some.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On a complete aside, with 40K showing up in this weeks’ episode of South Park? I’m not sure if it’s good or bad timing!

The most surprising part was them putting together valid-looking armies from photos, rather than just cartoon imitations like they did for pokemon.

Between this and the recent Darktide references I'm starting to think Matt and/or Trey are fans too.

 Formosa wrote:
pretty sure there was a rumour the distinction between primaris and firstborn marines was going away in terms of strats and transports, anyone aware of this?

I would quite like it as the main reason I never really wanted any of the Primaris is because I simply do not like their vehicles, if I can put primaris in a rhino or a land raider I would be happy and actually get some.

Yeah that was mentioned in a Valrak video in January. Still not confirmation yet, but with terminators amour able to fielded by both it seems more likely.

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
They do literally all that by the intent of their words and suddenly people are upset/confused that they're getting what they asked for.

Only if you don't understand or wilfully misrepresent or just pretend you don't understand the arguments being made. Which one of those three are you doing, Dudeface?

Clearly not understanding. Please illuminate me why this bothers you after spending so long complaining about stacking rules and bloat.

Votann lore explains how they harvest raw materials in bulk from stars and planets, shattering whole worlds to obtain vast quantities of metals and other elements. Despite this technological marvel no league has yet amassed even a fraction of the irony in a post from HMBC accusing someone else of "wilfully misrepresenting" an argument.

Just ignore his posts and move on. Trust me, it makes the forum much more pleasant for you and for everyone else.

 Formosa wrote:
pretty sure there was a rumour the distinction between primaris and firstborn marines was going away in terms of strats and transports, anyone aware of this?

I would quite like it as the main reason I never really wanted any of the Primaris is because I simply do not like their vehicles, if I can put primaris in a rhino or a land raider I would be happy and actually get some.

Sure, it's all there in the OP, quite easily searchable, i'm maintaining that just so you can check stuff like this out without much effort:

In a new video that can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw1Q2FdqkGA

Valrak added the following rumours:

- 10th edition will be 'another game' that is rebuilt 'from the ground up', i.e. a complete redesign instead of an evolution of 9th edition concepts Ambiguous
- Space Marine chapter supplements that were planned for the end of 9th edition have been postponed due to the enormity of the changes, and will instead be released in 10th edition Pending
- Among the chapters mentioned are Iron Hands and White Scars Pending
- In 10th edition, the separation between Primaris and Firstborn will be removed, including the keywords Pending
- Thus, 'Space Marines' of all generations will be one faction, removing restrictions on using certain transports etc. on the tabletop, even if the separation remains in the background

It's from 01/25/2023

So the move to these simplified detachments certainly seems simpler as far as rules go, but my reservations are in how many detachments each faction is going to get. I’m unlikely to know all of my opponents rules and detachments, so explanations are still going to be necessary. I also assume that these detachments will rapidly expand (dare I say bloat) as more and more codexes are released.
Just thinking about marines, how many ways will there be to run them?
Gladius, Phobos, first company, outriders, drop assault, armoured assault, (all speculation of course). You know that GW will want each chapter to have its flavor represented somehow. You’ve got Deathwing, Ravenwing, iron hands dreads, Blood angels death company, Ravenguard sneaky, etc.
There are going to be a metric shizzle ton of detachments to the game. Maybe not immediately (which will probably annoy some as your unique army style will have been removed until your codex drops) but within a year or so.