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xerxeskingofking wrote:
thats a facton rule, and the detachment (invasion fleet), rule. so, two rules, one of which is linked to detachments, one is a army wide one thats always on.

Shadow in the Warp isn't the Invasion Fleet rule. Hyper-Adaptation is.

Oh cool, they're still keeping Strats where just one of your units remembers it's more durable or able to shoot better.

Tyel wrote:
I'm sure I'll get used to it, but I feel we are dangerously close to rushing past my "10 is a sensible number of USRs" and we've barely covered 3 datasheets and some detachment rules.

Maybe this is what it feels to get old but my brain rebels at "Sustained Hits mean you land an extra hit when you score a Critical Hit." The meaning of the rule is simple - but I feel that's too many uses of "hit". Especially when the next sentence talks about "Lethal Hits".

Yea the USRs were dizzying at first, but as long as they keep the naming logical then it looks manageable. The deduction on Precision above, if true, means they do appear to follow some logic.

So basically you always have your Faction rule. Then depending on the Detachment you choose, you gain aditional one which is split in 3 choices + Enhancements which are you Relics and Warlord traits from the past + Stratagems, that are still too numerous IMO.

I was carefully optimistic about Knights in 10th, if toughness was going up and lethality going down. But if you just have reroll everything for AN ENTIRE ARMY, my Knights might just go on the shelf for a couple of years.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh cool, they're still keeping Strats where just one of your units remembers it's more durable or able to shoot better.

* Many old unit-specific Stratagems have become unit abilities instead – all the flavour, none of the faff.

Worth mentioning this is happening too.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh cool, they're still keeping Strats where just one of your units remembers it's more durable or able to shoot better.

"Gotcha!" strats are so awesome.






Not.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh cool, they're still keeping Strats where just one of your units remembers it's more durable or able to shoot better.

"Gotcha!" strats are so awesome.

Not.

Is it a gotcha when you can read them in all of 30 seconds?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Is it a gotcha when you can read them in all of 30 seconds?

It's a "Gotcha" because the opponent chooses a target, and you go "HA! Now their armour is better for some inexplicable reason! Gotcha!".

It's the reason why Transhuman Physiology is such a horrible rule.

I am not sure why knights, specifically, need to worry about OoM? Only one enemy unit can be targeted for the rerolls. Do people really think the entire opponent's army will be in range/los to shoot it? AP is going down and vehicle toughness (seemingly) is going up across the board.

What am I missing here?

This is encouraging to me.

Stratagems and Enhancements are also now part of your Detachment. In the previous edition, many players found it difficult to juggle and remember two or three dozen Stratagems. Those days are gone – no Detachment will contain more than six Stratagems. Add that to a robust universal menu of 12 Core Stratagems, and there’s now simply less to keep track of.*

18 tops, and not hidden across multiple rulebooks, codexes and expansions. Or so we’re told so far.

Still need to know more, including how many CPs you’re likely to have and how they’re generated etc.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Is it a gotcha when you can read them in all of 30 seconds?

It's a "Gotcha" because the opponent chooses a target, and you go "HA! Now their armour is better for some inexplicable reason! Gotcha!".

It's the reason why Transhuman Physiology is such a horrible rule.

If they gave a valid explanation in the fluff would that make it cease to be a 'gotcha' in that case? Or is it more that it's a blatant attempt to introduce a game mechanic for the sakes of balance without further consideration?

So you only get one free detachment at the start of the edition. Thanks GW!!
So if you’re a marine player, you’ll have your gladius and like it. Regardless of what sub faction you are. But don’t forget, you’ll get the opportunity to spend way more money to get new ones later!!!
So if every faction only has one detachment until their codex comes out, it’s going to be a very long edition for some armies.

Domandi wrote:
I am not sure why knights, specifically, need to worry about OoM? Only one enemy unit can be targeted for the rerolls. Do people really think the entire opponent's army will be in range/los to shoot it? AP is going down and vehicle toughness (seemingly) is going up across the board.

What am I missing here?

People are filling in the voids with what they know now which is incorrect. Imagine a world where armies are 25% smaller, obscuring has no wound cap, bolters can't hurt a knight and suddenly it actually seems the other way round. Not that there's any evidence that'll happen, nor that it won't, but that's the point.

Well, given how games most often are won and lost due to who is controlling the center of the table, that the one Knight in that area that just must die will be in range of most of the big scary shooty stuff is... more than likely. At least for me, the ability of my opponent to reroll everything is most often the reason my Knights go down. That and Mortal Wound spam. It isn't the scary railguns or such, it is mass s5-s8 at ap-1/-2 with full rerolls that turns into a death by a thousand cuts.

Domandi wrote:
I am not sure why knights, specifically, need to worry about OoM? Only one enemy unit can be targeted for the rerolls. Do people really think the entire opponent's army will be in range/los to shoot it? AP is going down and vehicle toughness (seemingly) is going up across the board.

What am I missing here?

Speculation on my part. But against Knights, focussing fire has always been key. The loss of a single Knight or couple of Armiger class puts a decent dent in your opponent’s options.

Sure we’re unlikely to be able to get everything to pick on the one Knight in a given turn. But the Knight targetted is still in quite a bit of bother, as we have to assume the Marine player will be aiming to maximise what will be in range and LoS of the intended victim.

It does by no means equate to “you will definitely now lose one Knight a turn”. That would be a silly claim. But given anti-tank can’t afford to whiff against Knights, Marines now have a decent insulation against Bloody Awful Luck, and a greater chance of a Really Solid Round Of Shooting.

This in turn can mean the Knight player has to be more cautious in where they’re leaving their models at the end of a given turn, as they need to factor in one model being marked for deletion. That in itself is an advantage to the Marine player.

I will keep these words and reply when 10th drops.
"It does by no means equate to “you will definitely now lose one Knight a turn”. That would be a silly claim."
If it turns out that I am the one that will be in the wrong, I will acknowledge that fact. But as to quote Han Solo: "I have a bad feeling about this"

Dudeface wrote:
If they gave a valid explanation in the fluff would that make it cease to be a 'gotcha' in that case?

No. It's a "Gotcha" because it's suddenly changing something after it's been chosen as a target.

"I use my S8 guns against your T4 models so I can wound them on 2+."
"HA! Now they're T9! Gotcha!"
"Ok... well I never would have picked them if they were T9 to begin with."

Stratagems should be about leveraging an abstracted strategic resource, not about micro-alterations to unit stats for a specific moment in response to the opponent making a choice they wouldn't have made if not for the strat. The Rapid Ingress rule we saw the other day is that kind of strat that I'd like to see more of, not "Suddenly tougher!".

I'm truly overjoyed that customisation options have been ditched to make room for stratagems.

 vipoid wrote:
I'm truly overjoyed that customisation options have been ditched to make room for stratagems.

"Stupid, not simple!"

Wait for part 2 where all the options that are there don't cost any extra points (except Multi-Meltas, for some reason).

Seems interesting. I'd love to play my Deathwatch again and so far it seems pretty good.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

WarCom wrote:On top of this, every faction gets an army ability regardless of which Detachment you’re using. This represents the totemic aspect of that faction in war – so ... Tyranids get Synapse...

Also WarCom wrote:For their army ability, the Tyranids can manipulate Battle-shock tests with Synapse and Shadow in the Warp – but we’ll find out what those do when we have a closer look at the Tyranid faction next month.

Umm... so is the army ability one rule, or more than one rule?

Synapse is probably the "Buff friendly leadership and battleshock results" half, while Shadow of the Warp is the "Debuff enemy leadership and psychic tests" half, all based on range from synapse creatures. Still one mechanic "Big brain bugs have effects" with 2 parts. Maybe both are subtitles for an "Hive Mind" army ability.




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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I'm truly overjoyed that customisation options have been ditched to make room for stratagems.

"Stupid, not simple!"

"Pithy, not Rational!"

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I'm going to guess that Sustained Hits is the name for exploding 6s, Lethal hits is the "6s to hit auto wound" and Precision is a way to prevent non-character models from tanking wounds from a Character

Which would indicate that characters can "embed" a unit in 10th? ala pre 9th edition?

Not sure how I feel about that, as in the past that opened up those 'death star' tactics.

Curious how wound allocations are done if characters can embed units...

I dunno, I think that games are fun when there are choices to be made, opportunities to bluff, and heck, even the simple ability to dedicate resources to keeping one unit alive instead of another one.

If we wanted to start nitpicking how the rules of 40k don't make a ton of sense from a realistic, or even simulation perspective... shoot, we'd be here a while.






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 whembly wrote:
Which would indicate that characters can "embed" a unit in 10th? ala pre 9th edition?

Not sure how I feel about that, as in the past that opened up those 'death star' tactics.

Curious how wound allocations are done if characters can embed units...

it took GW a long time, but they eventually stumbled across the best wound allocation rules in 9th: the owner picks who takes a the wound, but once they take one, they take the rest until they die.

Wow. So we are lowering rerolls across the board = we are lowering rerolls for everyone who is not a space marine??? This preview looks bad.

 Polonius wrote:
I dunno, I think that games are fun when there are choices to be made, opportunities to bluff, and heck, even the simple ability to dedicate resources to keeping one unit alive instead of another one.

If we wanted to start nitpicking how the rules of 40k don't make a ton of sense from a realistic, or even simulation perspective... shoot, we'd be here a while.

What is there to bluff? We know the Strat exists.

Agusto wrote:
Well, given how games most often are won and lost due to who is controlling the center of the table, that the one Knight in that area that just must die will be in range of most of the big scary shooty stuff is... more than likely. At least for me, the ability of my opponent to reroll everything is most often the reason my Knights go down. That and Mortal Wound spam. It isn't the scary railguns or such, it is mass s5-s8 at ap-1/-2 with full rerolls that turns into a death by a thousand cuts.

Games are not always won or lost at the center of the table. You can play around the edges quite well.

Also, consider Wolf Guard Terminators that get switched on to Assault Doc by a Libby which grants exploding 6s and AP3. Then give them reroll hits and +1 to wound from a Chaplain. Take all of that and put it up against a T8 knight. It's dead before we even get to stratagems.

Now instead take a TH S8 AP1 ( if they follow the PF/CF trend ) against T9+. Give them full rerolls and let's say the SW ability is Lethal Hits, which is less effective when you're rerolling wounds. The knight very likely won't be dead.

So that's the same hit rate, the wound rate goes from 66% to 55%, and the save goes from 16% to 33% to 50% ( depending if AP changes or not ).

The unanswered question would be what are Chaplains and Libbies doing and can they do it only to the unit they are in?




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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If they gave a valid explanation in the fluff would that make it cease to be a 'gotcha' in that case?

No. It's a "Gotcha" because it's suddenly changing something after it's been chosen as a target.

"I use my S8 guns against your T4 models so I can wound them on 2+."
"HA! Now they're T9! Gotcha!"
"Ok... well I never would have picked them if they were T9 to begin with."

Stratagems should be about leveraging an abstracted strategic resource, not about micro-alterations to unit stats for a specific moment in response to the opponent making a choice they wouldn't have made if not for the strat. The Rapid Ingress rule we saw the other day is that kind of strat that I'd like to see more of, not "Suddenly tougher!".

So is the termagant move a gotcha? Should the game just unfold exactly as one expects with no interactivity?

 Polonius wrote:
I dunno, I think that games are fun when there are choices to be made, opportunities to bluff, and heck, even the simple ability to dedicate resources to keeping one unit alive instead of another one.

Giant Growth in response to Lightning Bolt, except with less variance. As a MtG player, I'm fine with this.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I dunno, I think that games are fun when there are choices to be made, opportunities to bluff, and heck, even the simple ability to dedicate resources to keeping one unit alive instead of another one.

If we wanted to start nitpicking how the rules of 40k don't make a ton of sense from a realistic, or even simulation perspective... shoot, we'd be here a while.

What is there to bluff? We know the Strat exists.

Which unit get's it? Maybe I play a lot against Knights, but one of the keys of my shooting phases is to tease out Rotate early. Same with Transhuman.

Sure, sometimes it's obvious, but then it's not really a gotcha, is it?


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Boosykes wrote:
Wow. So we are lowering rerolls across the board = we are lowering rerolls for everyone who is not a space marine??? This preview looks bad.

Rerolls becoming a space marine thing doesn't mean that rerolls will be as common in 10th edition.

Remember this is one of two big rules for an army. They'll also get the detachment ability, which might bring back doctrines, but at least in theory, the army is balanced around this rule.

Back in 3rd edition, eldar had a ton of powerful psychic powers when almost nobody else did, but 3rd edition really did cut way back on psychic powers from 2nd.

"Games are not always won or lost at the center of the table. You can play around the edges quite well. " I know, but that was in response to the comment that not all of your opponents shooting would be in range. And still, if you lose the center, you are most likely losing on primaries as well. On the other hand, we don't know if there will even be primary objectives any more. And if we are moving around the edges, I fear what will happen when a unit of Eradicators will come in from reserve and double tab (if the retain that ability ofc) with full rerolls.

But I will take my doom and gloom from the perspective of a Knight player and move that to the Knight tactica section. All I am saying is that Oath of Moment is going to be insanely strong against an army like Imperial Knights, to the point that I struggle to grasp what kind of defensive buffs Knights will receive in order to able to survive. Knights weren't in a strong position during 9th, and I was, as mentioned, carefully optimistic about 10th. But if you take this kind of buff to the most played army in the game, I fail to see how this is going to be a good edition for Knights. If I turn out to be completely wrong about this though, no one will be happier than me and I will eat my proverbial hat!

Rant over...